Did Thatcher Destroy UK Manufacturing?

[pushthebutton]

Hi all,

This is the first post that I've started, but I've been reading the site for ages. So...

I was talking with my sister today about the current Gov't and how I hate almost everything they have done and we eventually got around to the subject of Thatcher, the Miners and UK manufacturing. She is adamant that Thatcher destroyed UK manufacturing and treated the Miners unfairly. I was a bit too young to witness the situation first hand, but I can't believe that this was a deliberate action.

So, I'm curious. I'm sure I seem to remember that some areas of UK manufacturing became too bloated due to overly powerful Unions. As a result the UK businesses were unable to compete with ever more efficient overseas manufacturers. This wasn't helped by the archaic labour practices adopted by the Unions. Is this the case?

I can and will Google the issue, but I thought that peoples opinions on here will be more entertaining. I'm really looking for some good comebacks for my leftie sister.

Thanks

PS...not a particularly interesting first post, but ho hum. Hopefully I'll improve!!!

[Disco_Dale]

The miners were f*cked over by both Thatcher and Scargill equally.
Yes Thatcher did kill British manufacturing because she lacked the skills to fix it and her ego wouldn't allow her to.

[s2art]

pushthebutton said:

Hi all,

This is the first post that I've started, but I've been reading the site for ages. So...

I was talking with my sister today about the current Gov't and how I hate almost everything they have done and we eventually got around to the subject of Thatcher, the Miners and UK manufacturing. She is adamant that Thatcher destroyed UK manufacturing and treated the Miners unfairly. I was a bit too young to witness the situation first hand, but I can't believe that this was a deliberate action.

So, I'm curious. I'm sure I seem to remember that some areas of UK manufacturing became too bloated due to overly powerful Unions. As a result the UK businesses were unable to compete with ever more efficient overseas manufacturers. This wasn't helped by the archaic labour practices adopted by the Unions. Is this the case?

I can and will Google the issue, but I thought that peoples opinions on here will be more entertaining. I'm really looking for some good comebacks for my leftie sister.

Thanks

PS...not a particularly interesting first post, but ho hum. Hopefully I'll improve!!!

The 'treatment' that the Thatcherites applied certainly caused many small to medium sized manufacturing companies to go under. In that sense they did damage the manufacturing sector. OTOH it was the previous Labour government with its tax and spend until bankrupt (seems familiar?) approach that necessitated a savage policy to try and control inflation.
So, on balance I would say it was Labour and the unions that destroyed manufacturing.

[grumbledoak]

The Unions largely destroyed manufacturing and mining here. On that automotive front you could add bad management, I suppose.

[tvrforever]

Not going to comment on the politics or results of but... Here's an interesting stat that surprised me the other day - the UK is still the worlds 7th largest manufacturing country!

Taken from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-top-manufactu... :-

In 2007, the top manufacturing countries besides the United States were :-

2) China ($1,106 billion USD)
3) Japan ($926 billion USD)
4) Germany ($670 billion USD)
5) the Russian Federation ($362 billion USD)
6) Italy ($345 billion USD)
7) the United Kingdom ($342 billion USD)
8) France ($296 billion USD)
9) South Korea ($241 billion USD)
10) Canada ($218 billion USD)
11) Spain ($208 billion USD)
12) Brazil ($206 billion USD)

Just rather surprised me given how much we have abused and downplayed our manufacturing industry.

[pushthebutton]

Thanks,

So, what were the basic fundamentals of the savage policy to control inflation, and how did it affect manufacturing? I'm assuming high interest rates??? I would think that destroying Unions by itself would not have a negative impact on manufacturing, would it?

WRT the coal industry, weren't European countries (Germany) automating and removing workers from the process? If so, was it a case of the Unions refusing to adapt to a changing industry and insisting on jobs for all?

[pushthebutton]

tvrforever said:

Not going to comment on the politics or results of but... Here's an interesting stat that surprised me the other day - the UK is still the worlds 7th largest manufacturing country!

Taken from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-top-manufactu... :-

That's good to know.

Cheers

[AndrewW-G]

Thatcher forced subsidised businesses in the UK to fend for themselves in a commercial environment, the unions however made damn sure that any business that didn’t agree with their views didn’t survive irrespective of the negative impact their actions had on the whole country, a good example would be British Leyland, union stupidity and labour subsidy drove them to the brink of destruction with terrible products people weren’t buying, once BL was split up and given the freedom to think for themselves the product line ups improved and the parts that survived were able to compete . . . . . . . in Rovers case unfortunately only until labour got a chance to shoot it in the face and watch as thousands of jobs were mismanaged into history

[10 Pence Short]

The unions killed British manufacturing. Thatcher saved us from anarchy and bankruptcy.

[s2art]

pushthebutton said:

Thanks,

So, what were the basic fundamentals of the savage policy to control inflation, and how did it affect manufacturing? I'm assuming high interest rates??? I would think that destroying Unions by itself would not have a negative impact on manufacturing, would it?

WRT the coal industry, weren't European countries (Germany) automating and removing workers from the process? If so, was it a case of the Unions refusing to adapt to a changing industry and insisting on jobs for all?

Yes, primarily high interest rates. The unions needed taming as well but the only mechanism that the Thatcherites could come up with was the threat of unemployment. ( and I cant think of anything else either).
And yes to your second point. Scargill killed coal mining in the UK.

[pushthebutton]

AndrewW-G said:

Thatcher forced subsidised businesses in the UK to fend for themselves in a commercial environment

So, effectively, nationalised industries such as Electricity etc, had relied on subsidy until that point. Suddenly, they had to fend for themselves, but didn't have the most efficient structures to deal with a competitive market?

Correct?

[AndrewW-G]

pushthebutton said:

AndrewW-G said:

Thatcher forced subsidised businesses in the UK to fend for themselves in a commercial environment

So, effectively, nationalised industries such as Electricity etc, had relied on subsidy until that point. Suddenly, they had to fend for themselves, but didn't have the most efficient structures to deal with a competitive market?

Correct?

Electricity production and distribution like almost all of the utilities in the UK was a virtual monopoly at that time . . . . . . . .massively bloated and inneficient thanks to the unions

[s2art]

pushthebutton said:

AndrewW-G said:

Thatcher forced subsidised businesses in the UK to fend for themselves in a commercial environment

So, effectively, nationalised industries such as Electricity etc, had relied on subsidy until that point. Suddenly, they had to fend for themselves, but didn't have the most efficient structures to deal with a competitive market?

Correct?

Approximately, yes. Add in huge overmanning of nationalised industries coupled to truly awful management (as seen from a business perspective rather than a political one).

[pushthebutton]

Disco_Dale said:

The miners were f*cked over by both Thatcher and Scargill equally.
Yes Thatcher did kill British manufacturing because she lacked the skills to fix it and her ego wouldn't allow her to.

Thanks alot.

Now I'm left wondering if anyone on here is gonna disagree with any of this and lay the blame solely at Thatchers door? I had a feeling that the views on here would mostly back up my own (I just needed to clarify what my viewpoint was).

[AndrewW-G]

pushthebutton said:

Disco_Dale said:

The miners were f*cked over by both Thatcher and Scargill equally.
Yes Thatcher did kill British manufacturing because she lacked the skills to fix it and her ego wouldn't allow her to.

Thanks alot.

Now I'm left wondering if anyone on here is gonna disagree with any of this and lay the blame solely at Thatchers door? I had a feeling that the views on here would mostly back up my own (I just needed to clarify what my viewpoint was).

I'm sure that in the history books of our descendants Margaret Thatcher will be viewed as one of the great leaders of this country, like with most leaders there will be people who disagree, Blair will be viewed as a traitor and nobody will even remember winky

[s2art]

AndrewW-G said:

pushthebutton said:

Disco_Dale said:

The miners were f*cked over by both Thatcher and Scargill equally.
Yes Thatcher did kill British manufacturing because she lacked the skills to fix it and her ego wouldn't allow her to.

Thanks alot.

Now I'm left wondering if anyone on here is gonna disagree with any of this and lay the blame solely at Thatchers door? I had a feeling that the views on here would mostly back up my own (I just needed to clarify what my viewpoint was).

I'm sure that in the history books of our descendants Margaret Thatcher will be viewed as one of the great leaders of this country, like with most leaders there will be people who disagree, Blair will be viewed as a traitor and nobody will even remember winky

Disagree. Winky will be remembered for a long time, as the worst chancellor and PM Britain has ever had. People will be analysing his complete ineptitude for generations, and wondering just how the British public was conned for so long.

[Parrot of Doom]

pushthebutton said:

I was talking with my sister today about the current Gov't and how I hate almost everything they have done and we eventually got around to the subject of Thatcher, the Miners and UK manufacturing. She is adamant that Thatcher destroyed UK manufacturing and treated the Miners unfairly. I was a bit too young to witness the situation first hand, but I can't believe that this was a deliberate action.!

Ask her if she enjoys the thought of corpses not being buried, of uncollected rubbish littering the street, of 3-day working weeks, of regular power cuts, of waiting months to get a phone installed, of buying British cars that rusted within months.

Just ask her if she'd like to go back to those days, when unions ruled, and not the elected government.

[Fittster]

I think people should ask themselves why a government should be involved in industry (for better or worse). Is running business really the job of the state?

If politicians remembered to limited their involvement the world might just be a better place.

[Dunk76]

pushthebutton said:

Disco_Dale said:

The miners were f*cked over by both Thatcher and Scargill equally.
Yes Thatcher did kill British manufacturing because she lacked the skills to fix it and her ego wouldn't allow her to.

Thanks alot.

Now I'm left wondering if anyone on here is gonna disagree with any of this and lay the blame solely at Thatchers door? I had a feeling that the views on here would mostly back up my own (I just needed to clarify what my viewpoint was).

Thatcher didn't kill UK manufacturing. Thatcher stopped the Unions killing the UK.

Three day weeks, work to rule, wildcat strikes, refusal to adopt modern production techniques, under-quota performance ethic, communist tendancies, and bullying of ineffective weak management, non-unionists, and anyone else they didn't like. They were about before Thatcher even got out of nappies.

Thatcher did what had needed doing since the end of the Second World War and put the disruptive anti-social elements of the (ironically) Socialist Unions out of the picture.

Others had tried before, including those on the left such as Barbara Castle, but she'll be remembered for actually succeeding. The premise that she killed UK manufacturing sort of relies on the fact that UK manufacturing would have got better all by itself.

A better way to look at things is to try to consider where UK Manufacturing would be right now if Thatcher hadn't knocked the Unions out of the picture.

Edited by Dunk76 on Sunday 6th September 20:12

[Gedon]

grumbledoak said:

The Unions largely destroyed manufacturing and mining here. On that automotive front you could add bad management, I suppose.

And then cheap oil stopped any chance of return, while cheap oil is still available.........