Oversupply of public sector professionals.
Discussion
In my old game of teaching, I've realised that in my area, about 100 new teachers qualified for about 15 jobs (5 maternity) last year (in a shortage subject). I've heard a few stories about numbers of applicants and a local school had over 190 for a recent post. I've met a fair few life-then-teaching ex-industry/research staff re-training. It seems very popular.
It seems similar in medicine. I put a lot of students into Med Courses. A few mates got jobs and few had great difficulty. One of whom is now fixing broken ladygardens at the other end of the country. A local practice was recruiting a new doc and there were LOTS of applications.
At a funeral the other day, I met an old cousin who said the situation was the same for prospective cops in Wales.
I wonder if this has happened in the past. I assume it has. I wonder if there was a similar situation last recession and whether it was used as an opportunity to cut costs/improve services.
I have heard that next year, the adjacent county is to lay off about 100 teaching staff. My county is going to be "thinning out" some of the longer serving (thus most expensive staff). I can imagine there will be hell up about this.
Considering the oversupply of staff and the current economic climate, it seems ripe to get the knife out and start trimming. I can't see how cuts won't be made and I wonder if the unions are playing a dangerous game with "industrial" action, considering the number of out-of-work staff who could say "Ok, I'll do it, and for cheaper to boot".
Whilst I hear that staff are being laid off and further staff will be condensed, wouldn't it just be easier to say "We've decided to pay you a lot less and if you don't like it, go somewhere that pays better". Actually put supply/demand into action. I hear a lot of people saying "It will affect the quality of the staff" Rubbish! Do the best quality of staff need more cash? Do they get snaffled up by industry? In my recent time as supply, I saw a fair few new recruits and I'm not sure that the increased competition has resulted in better quality staff.
So, given the current oversupply of public sector staff, rather than maintaining the payscales and "condensing" numbers, is it a better idea to attack the payscale and let supply and demand fill the vacancies? Is it time that payscales reflected the amount of staff prepared to do the job?
(Lean times, the pay could be upped.....even regional flexibility.... if there are a shortage of staff in Central London, how about paying them MORE???).
What do you reckon?
It seems similar in medicine. I put a lot of students into Med Courses. A few mates got jobs and few had great difficulty. One of whom is now fixing broken ladygardens at the other end of the country. A local practice was recruiting a new doc and there were LOTS of applications.
At a funeral the other day, I met an old cousin who said the situation was the same for prospective cops in Wales.
I wonder if this has happened in the past. I assume it has. I wonder if there was a similar situation last recession and whether it was used as an opportunity to cut costs/improve services.
I have heard that next year, the adjacent county is to lay off about 100 teaching staff. My county is going to be "thinning out" some of the longer serving (thus most expensive staff). I can imagine there will be hell up about this.
Considering the oversupply of staff and the current economic climate, it seems ripe to get the knife out and start trimming. I can't see how cuts won't be made and I wonder if the unions are playing a dangerous game with "industrial" action, considering the number of out-of-work staff who could say "Ok, I'll do it, and for cheaper to boot".
Whilst I hear that staff are being laid off and further staff will be condensed, wouldn't it just be easier to say "We've decided to pay you a lot less and if you don't like it, go somewhere that pays better". Actually put supply/demand into action. I hear a lot of people saying "It will affect the quality of the staff" Rubbish! Do the best quality of staff need more cash? Do they get snaffled up by industry? In my recent time as supply, I saw a fair few new recruits and I'm not sure that the increased competition has resulted in better quality staff.
So, given the current oversupply of public sector staff, rather than maintaining the payscales and "condensing" numbers, is it a better idea to attack the payscale and let supply and demand fill the vacancies? Is it time that payscales reflected the amount of staff prepared to do the job?
(Lean times, the pay could be upped.....even regional flexibility.... if there are a shortage of staff in Central London, how about paying them MORE???).
What do you reckon?
Supply and demand is an alien concept to the public sector.
They don't think like that, they look after themselves first and foremost, they try to claim that every spending cut or headcount reduction will be to frontline services.
Your outline is perfectly acceptable in industry, and it's happening right now (as are job cuts, which is also something pretty alien to a public sector employee) but the state-owned computer says no.
I think next May they may have to start out into a brave new world.
They don't think like that, they look after themselves first and foremost, they try to claim that every spending cut or headcount reduction will be to frontline services.
Your outline is perfectly acceptable in industry, and it's happening right now (as are job cuts, which is also something pretty alien to a public sector employee) but the state-owned computer says no.
I think next May they may have to start out into a brave new world.
FNG said:
Supply and demand is an alien concept to the public sector.
They don't think like that, they look after themselves first and foremost, they try to claim that every spending cut or headcount reduction will be to frontline services.
Your outline is perfectly acceptable in industry, and it's happening right now (as are job cuts, which is also something pretty alien to a public sector employee) but the state-owned computer says no.
I think next May they may have to start out into a brave new world.
EXACTLY!! Hopefully an immediate firing of the million trouser seat polishers that bLIAR/Broon and his scum employed to our detriment and then a cut of AT LEAST 20% of the remaining useless twunts...They don't think like that, they look after themselves first and foremost, they try to claim that every spending cut or headcount reduction will be to frontline services.
Your outline is perfectly acceptable in industry, and it's happening right now (as are job cuts, which is also something pretty alien to a public sector employee) but the state-owned computer says no.
I think next May they may have to start out into a brave new world.
Johnnytheboy said:
I've always thought PS py should reflect the ease of recruitment, i.e. if it's hard to fill the post then the salary should increase, and vice versa.
The way you smoke and mirrors this is by "raising the bar". Witness even more red tape, targets, accountability and a quango to monitor/ponder over it. No-one seems to have raised this point yet. We hear about cutting spending, we hear about unions getting excited and a shortfall in service.
It is logical. Too many staff? Check! Pay them less!
When I was doing supply and there were no jobs coming up, I thought "I'd quite happily sell myself short in order to actually work". I raised this in a staffroom and there was a lot of people got on their high horses. Not due to sound economic reasoning, just a sense of entitlement and a loud, cross voice.
A mate who recently became a Dr is amazed about the way the NHS wastes money. Despite the bulls
t bandied around by the high and mighty, teaching wastes a fortune as well. It is not a parallel universe and needs to be kicked into shape. 
My father and I were recently discussing reducing the payroll of the state by a simple 'word search point system'.
Employees score points for certain words in their job title, e.g:
Awareness
Diversity
Empowerment
Discrimination
(anyone got any other suggestions?)
Then the ones with the most points are made redundant.
Employees score points for certain words in their job title, e.g:
Awareness
Diversity
Empowerment
Discrimination
(anyone got any other suggestions?)
Then the ones with the most points are made redundant.
It seems that there is one thing missing from this discussion - that of demand.
The country's population is now over 60million and increasing. At the hospital closest to my family, their website shows surgical cases increasing by over 10% in the last 5 years, along with increasingly tight government targets regarding wait times.. Sure efficiency savings do contribute toward this, but a fundamental increase in overall capacity and staff is also required. This also doesnt take account of the increase in aptients at a time when more people are unemployed or no longer paying for private healthcare insurance.
The country's population is now over 60million and increasing. At the hospital closest to my family, their website shows surgical cases increasing by over 10% in the last 5 years, along with increasingly tight government targets regarding wait times.. Sure efficiency savings do contribute toward this, but a fundamental increase in overall capacity and staff is also required. This also doesnt take account of the increase in aptients at a time when more people are unemployed or no longer paying for private healthcare insurance.
ucb said:
It seems that there is one thing missing from this discussion - that of demand.
The country's population is now over 60million and increasing. At the hospital closest to my family, their website shows surgical cases increasing by over 10% in the last 5 years, along with increasingly tight government targets regarding wait times.. Sure efficiency savings do contribute toward this, but a fundamental increase in overall capacity and staff is also required. This also doesnt take account of the increase in aptients at a time when more people are unemployed or no longer paying for private healthcare insurance.
dont think anyone would argue against increase numbers of nurses etc its the administrators and consultants that ounumber them that is the problem.The country's population is now over 60million and increasing. At the hospital closest to my family, their website shows surgical cases increasing by over 10% in the last 5 years, along with increasingly tight government targets regarding wait times.. Sure efficiency savings do contribute toward this, but a fundamental increase in overall capacity and staff is also required. This also doesnt take account of the increase in aptients at a time when more people are unemployed or no longer paying for private healthcare insurance.
Johnnytheboy said:
I've always thought PS py should reflect the ease of recruitment, i.e. if it's hard to fill the post then the salary should increase, and vice versa.
That's what wound me up about the fire brigade strike a few years back, something like 70 people applying for each vacancy, and they were striking for more pay while squaddies, on half thier sallary, were doing thier jobs for them.Shoot Blair said:
.....what do you reckon?
I reckon the teachin profession is in a mess. My Mrs has just qualified as a teacher (via a one year Post Grad Cert of Education - PGCE) & started work this term teaching A-level economics & Business (which is relevant to what her degree was).
She is also a keen amateur artist so she is teaching a bit of Y7/8 art as well which is fine. She's also teaching Y10 computer programming of some kind - she knows so little about it she can't even tell me what the subject matter is! Then for good measure they landed some PHSE class in her lap as well - so she's teaching across 4 faculties.
At the same time, a bloke who was on her PGCE course FAILED all four of his coursework assignements and therefore failed his PGCE. He's go a job as a secondary school teacher as well.
Edited by Iain328 on Saturday 10th October 16:16
Iain328 said:
At the same time, a bloke who was on her PGCE course FAILED all four of his coursework assignements and therefore failed his PGCE. He's go a job as a secondary school teacher as well. rolleyes
If by that you mean that someone who has previously failed their PGCE has now got a job as a secondary school teacher, I would suggest you get your facts straight. This would not be possible. Happy to clear up your ignorance there, buddy.
If that wasn't what you meant then I'll leave you alone.
At the same time, a bloke who was on her PGCE course FAILED all four of his coursework assignements and therefore failed his PGCE. He's go a job as a secondary school teacher as well. rolleyes
If by that you mean that someone who has previously failed their PGCE has now got a job as a secondary school teacher, I would suggest you get your facts straight. This would not be possible. Happy to clear up your ignorance there, buddy.
If that wasn't what you meant then I'll leave you alone.
The Telegraph recently had some stats which demolished the govt./teaching unions' obsession with class sizes as the route to good education.
In short, comparing european countries, there was NO correlation between class sizes and educational outcomes.
There was a marked correlation between teacher quality and educational outcomes.
One of the Scandinavian countries was used as an example: teachers are selected from the best graduates & spend several years training. However class sizes are notably bigger than the UK, and yet the kids do better at school.
In short, comparing european countries, there was NO correlation between class sizes and educational outcomes.
There was a marked correlation between teacher quality and educational outcomes.
One of the Scandinavian countries was used as an example: teachers are selected from the best graduates & spend several years training. However class sizes are notably bigger than the UK, and yet the kids do better at school.
Johnnytheboy said:
The Telegraph recently had some stats which demolished the govt./teaching unions' obsession with class sizes as the route to good education.
In short, comparing european countries, there was NO correlation between class sizes and educational outcomes.
There was a marked correlation between teacher quality and educational outcomes.
One of the Scandinavian countries was used as an example: teachers are selected from the best graduates & spend several years training. However class sizes are notably bigger than the UK, and yet the kids do better at school.
Suspect the average Scandanavian enjoys a better standard of living/work/life balance than the average Brit and might actually have some time away from earning the next mortgage payment to spend with little Sven or Ulrike in order to encourage their development.... In short, comparing european countries, there was NO correlation between class sizes and educational outcomes.
There was a marked correlation between teacher quality and educational outcomes.
One of the Scandinavian countries was used as an example: teachers are selected from the best graduates & spend several years training. However class sizes are notably bigger than the UK, and yet the kids do better at school.
Blindlemon said:
If by that you mean that someone who has previously failed their PGCE has now got a job as a secondary school teacher, I would suggest you get your facts straight. This would not be possible. Happy to clear up your ignorance there, buddy.
If that wasn't what you meant then I'll leave you alone.
I meant what I said. An individual who was on my wife's PGCE course will not graduate from that course because he failed all (four of) the coursework assignments. Yet during the course (which finished in June this year) he applied for and was given a job (to start this September) as a secondary school teacher. Whether he can/will now keep that job , I can not say, but the last I heard he is currently working in the post concerned. At the end of the course we had dinner with my wife's tutor who said there was nothing they could do to stop it happening. Buddy.If that wasn't what you meant then I'll leave you alone.
Edited by Iain328 on Sunday 11th October 14:55
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