British educational ambition; is there anywhere worse?
Discussion
As per the title:
Is the UK population's seeming disregard for the merits of a good education unique?
Does any other country have the "it's cool to be thick/ill-educated" culture that seems so pervasive here?
It's a well known fact that all those in the 3rd/2nd World see education as the key to a successful life (which everyone, everywhere wants if they're honest).
The North Americans seem to take the subject considerably more seriously than us across the pond. As do the developed Oriental nations.
So I'm thinking Europe here as my only hope of this phenomenon occurring elsewhere. (The Scandinavians have lauded school systems so we can leave them out I think).
Irrespective of whether our attitude to schooling is matched elsewhere, what can we do to create cultural change in the UK?
Or have we passed the point where this can be addressed within say a lifetime?
Is the UK population's seeming disregard for the merits of a good education unique?
Does any other country have the "it's cool to be thick/ill-educated" culture that seems so pervasive here?
It's a well known fact that all those in the 3rd/2nd World see education as the key to a successful life (which everyone, everywhere wants if they're honest).
The North Americans seem to take the subject considerably more seriously than us across the pond. As do the developed Oriental nations.
So I'm thinking Europe here as my only hope of this phenomenon occurring elsewhere. (The Scandinavians have lauded school systems so we can leave them out I think).
Irrespective of whether our attitude to schooling is matched elsewhere, what can we do to create cultural change in the UK?
Or have we passed the point where this can be addressed within say a lifetime?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnist...
It was this article regarding a proposed 10 hour school day that prompted my question.
It was this article regarding a proposed 10 hour school day that prompted my question.
If the parents don't value their child's education, there's very little the schools can do about it. A few months ago someone was on the news lamenting the "poverty of aspiration" that is prevalent in many people. If you don't want to progress, it's very hard to force you to do so. Making benefits a true safety net not a lifestyle choice would be a start IMO... and so reducing the tax burden for all.
Martial Arts Man said:
The North Americans seem to take the subject considerably more seriously than us across the pond. As do the developed Oriental nations.
I though that too-till on a recent trip to the US I met an elementary school teacher who said he earned more money as a waiter. Not putting their value on education in a good light.Generally I agree entirely with your post-we seem to really value being deliberately ill-educated.
Goodness only knows why
How many TV shows have the intelligent guy get all the girls/cars/money etc? Square root of f
k all the last time I looked.
Being intelligent/educated is never portrayed as cool, instead your the geek/nerd/speccy git with acne and a bad haircut who spends all his spare time in interwebnet forums. Ohh hang on.....
k all the last time I looked.Being intelligent/educated is never portrayed as cool, instead your the geek/nerd/speccy git with acne and a bad haircut who spends all his spare time in interwebnet forums. Ohh hang on.....
There was a report in the news yesterday about Washington State lowering their standards for graduating from school because the kids can't pass the exams. Apparently a number of states have done this exact thing. Some states are extremely good, others simply are not, so don't assume that Britain is a lone disaster area. It isn't.
However....
I don't see much difference between this and the Britain I grew up in. Some people left school without O levels of CSEs, some got CSEs, some got O levels, some went on and got A levels, some went to a College of Further eductation, some went to Poly, some went to Uni. A whole spectrum of people for a whole spectrum of careers from roadsweeping to medicine. And the country needs people to sweep roads as well as perform surgery.
What's more worrying are the GBP 180 Million cuts in the next 18 months for Universities, hopefully they will hit the sectors that contribute least to GDP but I can see them cutting Enginering, Science & Maths places and cutting least in the areas of media studies and other modern courses.
However....
I don't see much difference between this and the Britain I grew up in. Some people left school without O levels of CSEs, some got CSEs, some got O levels, some went on and got A levels, some went to a College of Further eductation, some went to Poly, some went to Uni. A whole spectrum of people for a whole spectrum of careers from roadsweeping to medicine. And the country needs people to sweep roads as well as perform surgery.
What's more worrying are the GBP 180 Million cuts in the next 18 months for Universities, hopefully they will hit the sectors that contribute least to GDP but I can see them cutting Enginering, Science & Maths places and cutting least in the areas of media studies and other modern courses.
It’s not aspiration, it’s the governments lack of investment in education and the closure of ‘streamed’ schooling… and has been for some time.
I am the product of state, grammar and church education.
One of my parents was working class, the other, a fallen from financial grace (1 generation), middle class woman with aspiration for her children.
My father however, was talented and rose within the ranks of the Public Sector exceptionally quickly until he hit the barrier which was his education.
As a growing child I had my middle class, privately educated mother telling me right-from-wrong, whilst my highly inspirational father was promoted through talent before he hit the glass ceiling of his background; whilst all the time I was getting the best education possible for those without ‘money’.
I now have some ‘money’; almost, definitely, in the main, by having a talented and inspirational father, a mother with grace, dignity, and the bloody mindedness to ensure any state funded school she wanted me to go to would take me; the DNA of these two people, but, and far more importantly, witnessing these people fight through life to do the very best they could for me.
Education in this country is atrocious, appalling, more over, depressing.
My first son, now 17, dragged 11 GCSE passes, and although proud, I feel I failed him as they are A-C within a state system which, without my dogged support, would have left him flailing.
My youngest son however, has the benefit of a more surefooted financial background, and, an independent education.
Reading, writing, 8 musical instruments to decide from, science labs, IT departments I could only dream of and Latin as a second language being very, very few of the benefits that spring to mind.
He’s 4.
What a difference ‘money’ makes?
It makes me cry…
I am the product of state, grammar and church education.
One of my parents was working class, the other, a fallen from financial grace (1 generation), middle class woman with aspiration for her children.
My father however, was talented and rose within the ranks of the Public Sector exceptionally quickly until he hit the barrier which was his education.
As a growing child I had my middle class, privately educated mother telling me right-from-wrong, whilst my highly inspirational father was promoted through talent before he hit the glass ceiling of his background; whilst all the time I was getting the best education possible for those without ‘money’.
I now have some ‘money’; almost, definitely, in the main, by having a talented and inspirational father, a mother with grace, dignity, and the bloody mindedness to ensure any state funded school she wanted me to go to would take me; the DNA of these two people, but, and far more importantly, witnessing these people fight through life to do the very best they could for me.
Education in this country is atrocious, appalling, more over, depressing.
My first son, now 17, dragged 11 GCSE passes, and although proud, I feel I failed him as they are A-C within a state system which, without my dogged support, would have left him flailing.
My youngest son however, has the benefit of a more surefooted financial background, and, an independent education.
Reading, writing, 8 musical instruments to decide from, science labs, IT departments I could only dream of and Latin as a second language being very, very few of the benefits that spring to mind.
He’s 4.
What a difference ‘money’ makes?
It makes me cry…
I spent 20 years in Education and training. In fact my first proper job was working for the LEA. The problem is complex but some simple wrongs could be righted.
1. Education is free and the gummint take on role of managing education from cradle to grave. Q When was the last time you got anything free that was any good? Q Why not issue every parent with a card to allow them to purchase teir childs education? This would allow top up, thus improving the standard for almost everyone, together with making schools truly provide a service that satisfies parents wishes, rather than be at odds with them. Parental bias and foolishness could be combatted with school governeors from industry and independant standards inspection.
2. The whole of our society has a tendancy to
Lionise dheads (Why do we allow children to progress through school without achiving basic levels of education)
Scorn success, material wealth and achievement. This leads to a desire for failure and negativity in later life. My personal theory for this is that we have a Royal family and they need to go.
Search for a Panacea (GCSEs, NVQs GNVQs Foundation degrees) All these are proof of the fact that a panacea is not available. Engineering is not retail and Counselling is not Physics. Realise it and move on.
Allow social engineering and reject free thinking. We ought to be making people do X Y Z etc in the name of Allah, God, Global Warming, morality. Why?
3. We want overarching strategies to manage the whole of our education system. Overarching strategy does not work for even small focussed organisations so why should an entire nations education be formed by one commitee? (Rank Xerox sacked its entire strategy department before recovering from near failure and going on to recovery) Surely creating a market that can demonstrate best practice through the success of its students. The RADA and the Sylvia Young theatre school does this well. It could be expanded as a concept.
1. Education is free and the gummint take on role of managing education from cradle to grave. Q When was the last time you got anything free that was any good? Q Why not issue every parent with a card to allow them to purchase teir childs education? This would allow top up, thus improving the standard for almost everyone, together with making schools truly provide a service that satisfies parents wishes, rather than be at odds with them. Parental bias and foolishness could be combatted with school governeors from industry and independant standards inspection.
2. The whole of our society has a tendancy to
Lionise d
heads (Why do we allow children to progress through school without achiving basic levels of education)Scorn success, material wealth and achievement. This leads to a desire for failure and negativity in later life. My personal theory for this is that we have a Royal family and they need to go.
Search for a Panacea (GCSEs, NVQs GNVQs Foundation degrees) All these are proof of the fact that a panacea is not available. Engineering is not retail and Counselling is not Physics. Realise it and move on.
Allow social engineering and reject free thinking. We ought to be making people do X Y Z etc in the name of Allah, God, Global Warming, morality. Why?
3. We want overarching strategies to manage the whole of our education system. Overarching strategy does not work for even small focussed organisations so why should an entire nations education be formed by one commitee? (Rank Xerox sacked its entire strategy department before recovering from near failure and going on to recovery) Surely creating a market that can demonstrate best practice through the success of its students. The RADA and the Sylvia Young theatre school does this well. It could be expanded as a concept.
nonegreen said:
STUFF… which in the main makes sense
The key issue is that ‘if ain’t broke, don’t fix it’Tiered grammar school education fits the bill; it allows those that have both a natural ability and/or a desire to succeed the ability to do so, whilst not alienating those with either less desire or ability.
Same teachers, same school, same kids.
Just… different results.
The grammar school model allowed for general education, social mobility and selectiveness at the same time, in the same place, with the ability to ‘power-up’ based on ability or ambition without losing kudos with your peers (and/or parents).
Why drag everyone down to the lowest common dominator when there was a perfectly good model to allow those that would, … to fly?
Please, if someone reading this can truly influence future generations, think on.
Parents that don't see the value of education will not instill in their children the value of a good education.Education used to be seen as a way to better your prospects, to elevate yourself beyond your origins, to lift you out of poverty and provide you with choices. In our supposed classless society this idea is frowned upon as it suggests we still have a class system. Whereas in fact the Gov have attempted to reduce class distinction by economic means i.e. redistributing wealth, as opposed to cultivating merit.
With the massive welfare state we have, the protection from true poverty, the lack of natural stimulus to better oneself then education, naturally, becomes less important.
From a philosophical and historical point of view, every society that has reached a point of development whereby it has attained independence from the natural world and its events and powers does then decline.
We sit on our laurels and indulge ourselves in clumsy ideologies, ignoring nature.
Nature demands survival of the fittest and this can mean survival of the fittest society, the society the weeds out weakness, not in terms of weak people but weak ideas and ideologies.
I'm sure there some places where it's worse and I'm sure there's massive variation across the country.
I agree with many of the points made, Britain is a place where you can either coast through life with a solid gold safety net or work hard and be taxed to ludicrous levels while being made out to be an enemy of society.
As a country we need to wake up to the changing world around us. Technology and services industries are the future and so we should be encouraging kids to study engineering, chemistry, biology, law, IT, economics etc and make it appealing. However these days all kids seem to want to do is a) be on X-Factor, b) be/marry a footballer or c) walk into a high powered office job after coasting through a media studies degree.
That said, while the problems are clear to see the solution I'm not so sure on. However I would like to see more effort going into replicating state education systems with a proven record of success.
I agree with many of the points made, Britain is a place where you can either coast through life with a solid gold safety net or work hard and be taxed to ludicrous levels while being made out to be an enemy of society.
As a country we need to wake up to the changing world around us. Technology and services industries are the future and so we should be encouraging kids to study engineering, chemistry, biology, law, IT, economics etc and make it appealing. However these days all kids seem to want to do is a) be on X-Factor, b) be/marry a footballer or c) walk into a high powered office job after coasting through a media studies degree.
That said, while the problems are clear to see the solution I'm not so sure on. However I would like to see more effort going into replicating state education systems with a proven record of success.
I do think bettr advice on careers needs to be given earlier on, from say 11 right through till the end of college. As I remember it there was an advisor that did a crap job of it, and it ended up that I left secondary school not having a clue what I could actually do in the world..Had I been the type that gave thing up easy, then I coud have slipped into the net.
Staying in the small town, working in a shop, not knowing what the world has to offer.
Staying in the small town, working in a shop, not knowing what the world has to offer.
okgo said:
I do think bettr advice on careers needs to be given earlier on, from say 11 right through till the end of college. As I remember it there was an advisor that did a crap job of it, and it ended up that I left secondary school not having a clue what I could actually do in the world..Had I been the type that gave thing up easy, then I coud have slipped into the net.
Staying in the small town, working in a shop, not knowing what the world has to offer.
Having done some consultancy work for the careers service. The thing should be scrapped. Its just women being nice to kids and they have no expertise in anything other than being nice to kids. The service is really rubbish. Time to "sack and scrap." Staying in the small town, working in a shop, not knowing what the world has to offer.
DonnyMac said:
It’s not aspiration, it’s the governments lack of investment in education
Whilst i disagree with much of this government I do think that they reversed the decline in investment in our schools that had been going on for a long time. in their own words
Labour:
http://www.labour.org.uk/schools
We have more than doubled investment in education from £30 billion in 1997 to £73.3 billion in 2008/09.
Unlocking the talent and potential of each and every young person is at the heart of Labour’s vision for education. Since 1997, Labour has transformed education; young people are achieving some of the best ever results at 11, 16 and 18. We have more than doubled investment in education from £30 billion in 1997 to £73.3 billion in 2008/09.
Key achievements:
•Labour has doubled the amount spent per pupil since 1997 from £2,900 to over £5,850 today.
•Labour has delivered over 40,000 more teachers and 116,000 more teaching assistants than in 1997.
•Our investment has enabled 100,000 more 11 year olds to master literacy and 93,000 more to master numeracy since 1997. Today, 81 per cent of 11 year olds reach the expected level in English and 78 per cent in maths. This compares with 63% for English and 62% in maths in 1997.
•Labour has seen 470,000 more young people gain five or more good GCSEs. The proportion of young people achieving five or more good GCSEs is up by nearly 20 percentage points since 1997.
•The number of schools where less than 30 per cent of pupils get five GCSEs at A*-C grade , has fallen from more than half of schools in 1997 to just 440 (around one in seven) today.
•Over 1,100 new schools have been built, rebuilt or refurbished.
•We have offered every 16 and 17 year old a ‘September Guarantee’ which means we are funding a guaranteed place at school, college, training or in an apprenticeship for every 16 and 17 year old that wants one.
southendpier said:
Labour have double spending on Edukation.
Grade inflation.
EFA.Grade inflation.
I'll bet one of my 9 pre-1997 GCSEs (all As, not to blow my own, as it were) that universities & employers - you know those people who actually have to process the results of secondary Edukation - will tell you that pupils are less able to forfill their tasks despite having numerous A-stars and achieving 'record pass rates'. As for the new schools, i just can't wait to see the PFI bills for these when they have to be paid back. Shame there isn't anything left over for Higher Education:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/ed...
Edited by fido on Wednesday 23 December 14:53
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