State Media Reports Road Salt Useless Below -6 Deg
Discussion
Why is the BBC and ITV now suddenly reporting that road salt doesn't work below -6 degrees?
We've had plenty of seasonal disruption in past years with winter temperatures falling below this figure, yet today I've heard not only the BBC but ITV main news & local bulletins spouting this 'new found fact'.
With this cold period expected to last several days, and council stocks of road salt rapidly dwindling, I wondered whether this 'revelation' was just pure coincidence?
Is this not the perfect foil to a disenchanted motoring public who struggle to go about their business on poorly salted roads?
'Oh yes, we salted your road guv, honest, but the salt don't work cos it's too cold, see?...'
Roll on climate change eh?
We've had plenty of seasonal disruption in past years with winter temperatures falling below this figure, yet today I've heard not only the BBC but ITV main news & local bulletins spouting this 'new found fact'.
With this cold period expected to last several days, and council stocks of road salt rapidly dwindling, I wondered whether this 'revelation' was just pure coincidence?
Is this not the perfect foil to a disenchanted motoring public who struggle to go about their business on poorly salted roads?
'Oh yes, we salted your road guv, honest, but the salt don't work cos it's too cold, see?...'
Roll on climate change eh?
Edited by pacman1 on Thursday 7th January 00:13
Is this the case. In my lab days, I always supercooled ice before chucking salt on it to take the temp down further (melts in the process). I assume this would have been -6 or thereabouts.
I'd like to see the evidence. I'm off to bed now, but the truth will be out there on google and will be under "freezing mixtures"
Essentially, you have ice, which is crystalline, adding salt causes a solution to be formed and the resulting change of state absorbs energy/drops temp. You can get ice down to about -16 deg C or so in this manner IIRC. It was a long time ago now. At some point the rate of solution formation will get ridiculously slow/non existent, but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work 'eventually' in temperatures where the meeting of the 2 chemicals causes this state change and temp drop (to -16 or so).
I'm probably not bang on, but it's in the area.
I'd like to see the evidence. I'm off to bed now, but the truth will be out there on google and will be under "freezing mixtures"
Essentially, you have ice, which is crystalline, adding salt causes a solution to be formed and the resulting change of state absorbs energy/drops temp. You can get ice down to about -16 deg C or so in this manner IIRC. It was a long time ago now. At some point the rate of solution formation will get ridiculously slow/non existent, but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work 'eventually' in temperatures where the meeting of the 2 chemicals causes this state change and temp drop (to -16 or so).
I'm probably not bang on, but it's in the area.
Maybe the stuff that we use is designed with economics in mind to work to a typical UK temperature.
When I was working in Cedar Rapids, Iowa a few years ago, the temperature dropped to -27F / -32C (including wind chill admittedly), and their salt worked well.
It's a bit like different car anti-freezes. Some can protect at lower temperatures for different climates, but they tend to eat your engine. Perhaps using such powerful salts in the UK would cause significant damage to the roads. Anyway, I am waffling in speculation as usual !
When I was working in Cedar Rapids, Iowa a few years ago, the temperature dropped to -27F / -32C (including wind chill admittedly), and their salt worked well.
It's a bit like different car anti-freezes. Some can protect at lower temperatures for different climates, but they tend to eat your engine. Perhaps using such powerful salts in the UK would cause significant damage to the roads. Anyway, I am waffling in speculation as usual !
SeeFive said:
Maybe the stuff that we use is designed with economics in mind to work to a typical UK temperature.
When I was working in Cedar Rapids, Iowa a few years ago, the temperature dropped to -27F / -32C (including wind chill admittedly), and their salt worked well.
That will be with magnesium salts, which can go as low as -34'C, so it was getting pretty close!When I was working in Cedar Rapids, Iowa a few years ago, the temperature dropped to -27F / -32C (including wind chill admittedly), and their salt worked well.
I've also seen mention of people filling tyres with calcium chloride solution as some sort of cold weather preparation, but i'm not quite sure why yet.
My contention is that the road salt is being blamed when the real issue is the lack of it.
ETA I mean, where's The Sun headline, ROAD SALT NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE shock horror then?
The media seem have absorbed this fact as though it was something you should have been aware of.
ETA I mean, where's The Sun headline, ROAD SALT NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE shock horror then?
The media seem have absorbed this fact as though it was something you should have been aware of.
Edited by pacman1 on Thursday 7th January 00:51
With global warming causing extreme weather events such as the current northern hemisphere record breaking low temperatures and snowfalls, you would think any competent government would have had the foresight to order plentiful stocks of rock salt.
Apparently sarcasm doesn't work well in written format
Apparently sarcasm doesn't work well in written format
Salt lowers the melting point of ice. So if it's -2'C then ice would not normally melt, but adding salt will lower the melting point to say, -6'C. Clearly the ambient temperature of -2'C is hotter than the new melting point, so the ice melts and clears.
However if the road is at -7'C then even lowering the melting point of ice to -6'C (by using salt) the ambient temp is still too cold for the ice to melt.
So it is true that it can be too cold for salt to 'work' on the roads.
As for how it's being reported as a 'new' fact - well it wouldn't be 'news' if it was an 'old' fact now, would it? Hence there will always be a slant on the news program to make these things sound like revelations when really, they are not.
However if the road is at -7'C then even lowering the melting point of ice to -6'C (by using salt) the ambient temp is still too cold for the ice to melt.
So it is true that it can be too cold for salt to 'work' on the roads.
As for how it's being reported as a 'new' fact - well it wouldn't be 'news' if it was an 'old' fact now, would it? Hence there will always be a slant on the news program to make these things sound like revelations when really, they are not.
deeps said:
With global warming causing extreme weather events such as the current northern hemisphere record breaking low temperatures and snowfalls, you would think any competent government would have had the foresight to order plentiful stocks of rock salt.
Apparently sarcasm doesn't work well in written format
It wasn't wasted on me. Apparently sarcasm doesn't work well in written format
pacman1 said:
mrmr96 said:
As for how it's being reported as a 'new' fact - well it wouldn't be 'news' if it was an 'old' fact now, would it?
My point is why is this fact being mentioned by the media now? I think that a suggestion that it could be used as a cover up for the short supply of grit could be a little bit 'tin foil'.
Edited by mrmr96 on Thursday 7th January 09:45
Mr_B said:
Stocks are low and they are hurridly buying thousands of tons of sharp sand to mix with it to make it last. Probably why it's not that great.
Isn't that the same as building sand? If so, our builder was complaining last week that he couldn't find anywhere to get sand, because all the suppliers store it outside, so it was all frozen solid!Before anyone says anything, no, it wasn't a builder's excuse, as he's not doing anything for us at the moment which requires sand.
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