UK Prisons

[tom2019]

Why are they such a joke.

Having personally talked to a couple of people that have been to prion some of the quotes spring to mind:

"I wouldn't be bothered going back its likw a holiday camp"

"Its got a nice gym and games rom"

"I get a ps2 in my room"

A simple way to reduce crime cwould be make prison a punishment.

I know people who still have facebook when their in prison. I thought that being in prison was so they you are sectioned from society. Then why allow internet access to facebook which is a socail website?

IMO prisons should be have the bare minimun to survive. They should be forced to do labour, I would like to see a system where prisoners are forced to do work. At the moment they have it way too easy no wonder the ro-offending rate is so high.

Prisons sentences are a joke aswell but thats a different topic.

Do you think you'd see so many scrotes stealing cars mugging people if there was a possibility of spending years in a sthole doing 12 hours work a day for penauts ?

[Mclovin]

exactly stale bread, chemical laced water to keep them peaceful and hard labour to keep them honest...

[Fittster]

Care to have a guess how expensive it is to keep someone locked up?

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

[elster]

Fittster said:

Care to have a guess how expensive it is to keep someone locked up?

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

£45k pa

You could reduce that down a substantial amount if they had to work for their keep. The work they do should be unpaid and goes to pay for their keep.

[Dare2Fail]

Fittster said:

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

Why not?

Do you mean that we are not allowed to, or that it is almost impossible to motivate someone to work hard in that position?

[Burgmeister]

Whilst I do not advocate chain gangs and the like is there any reason why low risk prisoners can't be put to use, clearing leaves, litter, putting cones out on motorways etc..?

[Fittster]

Dare2Fail said:

Fittster said:

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

Do you mean that we are not allowed to, or that it is almost impossible to motivate someone to work hard in that position?

Can you think of an example where forced labour has turned out a quality product? If they are knocking out cheap rubbish (e.g. mail bags) it's likely a dedicated, efficient factory will do a better job.

You'd be better off looking at why people are their in the first place. Drugs reabilitation programs and proper mental health care systems would be a good start.

Edited by Fittster on Sunday 7th February 16:58

[5unny]

Fittster said:

Dare2Fail said:

Fittster said:

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

Do you mean that we are not allowed to, or that it is almost impossible to motivate someone to work hard in that position?

Can you think of an example where forced labour has turned out a quality product? If they are knocking out cheap rubbish (e.g. mail bags) it's likely a dedicated, efficient factory will do a better job.

You'd be better off looking at why people are their in the first place. Drugs reabilitation programs and proper mental health care systems would be a good start.

Edited by Fittster on Sunday 7th February 16:58

Thailand-Burma Railway, The White House, The Taj Mahal......

I don't think such slave labour should be used today, even with prisoners, but it's silly to suggest forced labour cannot bring about a sound product.

[Fittster]

5unny said:

Fittster said:

Dare2Fail said:

Fittster said:

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

Do you mean that we are not allowed to, or that it is almost impossible to motivate someone to work hard in that position?

Can you think of an example where forced labour has turned out a quality product? If they are knocking out cheap rubbish (e.g. mail bags) it's likely a dedicated, efficient factory will do a better job.

You'd be better off looking at why people are their in the first place. Drugs reabilitation programs and proper mental health care systems would be a good start.

Edited by Fittster on Sunday 7th February 16:58

Thailand-Burma Railway, The White House, The Taj Mahal......

I don't think such slave labour should be used today, even with prisoners, but it's silly to suggest forced labour cannot bring about a sound product.

Let's take your first example the Thia - Burma Railway:

"After the war the railway was in inadequate state to be used for the civil Thai railway system, and needed heavy reconstruction. On 24 June 1949, the first part from Kanchanaburi to Nong Pladuk was finished"

So it wasn't a quality bit of engineering, regardless of the suffering that went towards it's initial construction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway

[elster]

Fittster said:

Dare2Fail said:

Fittster said:

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

Do you mean that we are not allowed to, or that it is almost impossible to motivate someone to work hard in that position?

Can you think of an example where forced labour has turned out a quality product? If they are knocking out cheap rubbish (e.g. mail bags) it's likely a dedicated, efficient factory will do a better job.

You'd be better off looking at why people are their in the first place. Drugs reabilitation programs and proper mental health care systems would be a good start.

Edited by Fittster on Sunday 7th February 16:58

Russian Salt mines.

They get salt, so it works.

[Silent1]

American prisons make all sorts of crap and are paid something like 50 cents a day and the government use them to compete with Mexico, but when 25% of the earths prison population are Americans I guess you can use them efficiently

[Fittster]

elster said:

Fittster said:

Dare2Fail said:

Fittster said:

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

Do you mean that we are not allowed to, or that it is almost impossible to motivate someone to work hard in that position?

Can you think of an example where forced labour has turned out a quality product? If they are knocking out cheap rubbish (e.g. mail bags) it's likely a dedicated, efficient factory will do a better job.

You'd be better off looking at why people are their in the first place. Drugs reabilitation programs and proper mental health care systems would be a good start.

Edited by Fittster on Sunday 7th February 16:58

Russian Salt mines.

They get salt, so it works.

Am I the only person who can use google?

http://whyswords.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/inside-a...

Russia doesn't use prisoners in it's salt mines.

Even if you can get prisoners to work efficienty (which is unproved) they are going to then undercut the commercial sector. So you get the prison population to make widgets, which is all well and good until the commercia widget factor closes and it's workers are thrown out of work and have to turn to benefits/crime.

[Johnnytheboy]

elster said:

Fittster said:

Care to have a guess how expensive it is to keep someone locked up?

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

£45k pa

You could reduce that down a substantial amount if they had to work for their keep. The work they do should be unpaid and goes to pay for their keep.

And for repeated property offenders, one can at least partly trade this off against the amount they cost society when they are at liberty. Someone who likes to steal and trash a car every weekend would cost society a lot less to keep in jail.

[elster]

Fittster said:

Russia doesn't use prisoners in it's salt mines.

Even if you can get prisoners to work efficienty (which is unproved) they are going to then undercut the commercial sector. So you get the prison population to make widgets, which is all well and good until the commercia widget factor closes and it's workers are thrown out of work and have to turn to benefits/crime.

Are you telling me Stalin didn't set up Salt mines for prisoners to mine?

[Fittster]

elster said:

Fittster said:

Russia doesn't use prisoners in it's salt mines.

Even if you can get prisoners to work efficienty (which is unproved) they are going to then undercut the commercial sector. So you get the prison population to make widgets, which is all well and good until the commercia widget factor closes and it's workers are thrown out of work and have to turn to benefits/crime.

Are you telling me Stalin didn't set up Salt mines for prisoners to mine?

A history of salt production in Russia

"According to archaeological evidence, the most ancient settlement that produced salt dates back to the second millennium BC and was on the Danilovo lake near the village of Usolye (the Samarsk region, Middle Povolzhye). However, until the birth of the Russian State in the 10th c, the main salt-producing area was the territory next to the Black Sea and the Azovskoye Sea coast. Extraction of salt from sea water on the northern shores was first reported in the Duke Svyatoslav charter at the Sophia Synod in 1137 which provides the earliest mention of Russian salteries equipped with chrens. Chrens, which are rectangular trays made of riveted iron sheets, are the most significant technological development in salt-making and remained in existence until the 1970s."

[elster]

Fittster said:

A history of salt production in Russia

"According to archaeological evidence, the most ancient settlement that produced salt dates back to the second millennium BC and was on the Danilovo lake near the village of Usolye (the Samarsk region, Middle Povolzhye). However, until the birth of the Russian State in the 10th c, the main salt-producing area was the territory next to the Black Sea and the Azovskoye Sea coast. Extraction of salt from sea water on the northern shores was first reported in the Duke Svyatoslav charter at the Sophia Synod in 1137 which provides the earliest mention of Russian salteries equipped with chrens. Chrens, which are rectangular trays made of riveted iron sheets, are the most significant technological development in salt-making and remained in existence until the 1970s."

What has that got to with Prisoners used as workers in Salt mines?

[thetrash]

elster said:

Fittster said:

Care to have a guess how expensive it is to keep someone locked up?

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

£45k pa

You could reduce that down a substantial amount if they had to work for their keep. The work they do should be unpaid and goes to pay for their keep.

What do you suggest that they do then? They already print HMPS forms,make prisoners clothing,belts etc. The quality of what the produce isn't the best as they are a very uneducated and demotivated workforce.

I keep saying this, you want a harsher system be prepared to pay far more for it. It's very easy to say make them,force them etc,etc but that is a lot easier said than done.

[elster]

thetrash said:

elster said:

Fittster said:

Care to have a guess how expensive it is to keep someone locked up?

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

£45k pa

You could reduce that down a substantial amount if they had to work for their keep. The work they do should be unpaid and goes to pay for their keep.

What do you suggest that they do then? They already print HMPS forms,make prisoners clothing,belts etc. The quality of what the produce isn't the best as they are a very uneducated and demotivated workforce.

I keep saying this, you want a harsher system be prepared to pay far more for it. It's very easy to say make them,force them etc,etc but that is a lot easier said than done.

Be a bit more self sufficient. Work the land a bit?

It would be helpful to know what the brakdown of the costs of running a prison to see where the prisoners could be doing the work instead of outsourcing.

[Poledriver]

Burgmeister said:

Whilst I do not advocate chain gangs and the like is there any reason why low risk prisoners can't be put to use, clearing leaves, litter, standing in for cones out on motorways etc..?

EFA

[thetrash]

elster said:

thetrash said:

elster said:

Fittster said:

Care to have a guess how expensive it is to keep someone locked up?

And no you can't make them work productively enough to pay for their own keep.

£45k pa

You could reduce that down a substantial amount if they had to work for their keep. The work they do should be unpaid and goes to pay for their keep.

What do you suggest that they do then? They already print HMPS forms,make prisoners clothing,belts etc. The quality of what the produce isn't the best as they are a very uneducated and demotivated workforce.

I keep saying this, you want a harsher system be prepared to pay far more for it. It's very easy to say make them,force them etc,etc but that is a lot easier said than done.

Be a bit more self sufficient. Work the land a bit?

It would be helpful to know what the brakdown of the costs of running a prison to see where the prisoners could be doing the work instead of outsourcing.

Outsource what though? A lot fo the cost is due to already thread bare staffing.Maintaining the buildings is also done fairly cheaply when you consider the payrates of the trades compared to the private sector. All the clothing,bedding is made in house. The food costs are pretty cheap £1.70ish a day.
The Private jails are costing more to run than the public ones. Staff/prisoners get assualted but it doesn't get reported as it's bad for private jails bottoms lines.