Does this really happen.. "onshoring" IT staff

[john_p]

Mr X is a software developer for Bigcorp India

Mr X gets transferred to their UK subsidiary, Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd, and moves to the UK

Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd offer Mr X out to UK companies looking for software
contractors.

As Mr X is an employee of Bigcorp India, he does not require a work visa. Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd can undercut UK workers by a large percentage as Mr X works at Indian rates.

Mr X gets UK work experience, learns English and then is in a good position to apply for a UK work visa.

Does this really go on?

Edited by john_p on Tuesday 9th February 13:39

[Don]

Yes of course it does. Been happening for the last decade at least.

Last time I came across it it was in the USA. The US Government was hiring them to save on costs...

[Bing o]

Yep, quite a few near me. Thicker than the average UK IT nerd, but then they are cheaper, until they bring the whole family over.

At least I can slap the ones here for being stheads, whilst the illiterate unintelligeble fkers in Bangalore get away with it....

(And yes, I am having a bad fking day).

[bp1]

Absolutely, happens in most blue chips I've been in. And pretty much what Bingo says is true. Pay peanuts and even in a recession, you still get monkeys.

[Liszt]

john_p said:

Mr X is a software developer for Bigcorp India

Mr X gets transferred to their UK subsidiary, Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd, and moves to the UK

Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd offer Mr X out to UK companies looking for software
contractors.

As Mr X is an employee of Bigcorp India, he does not require a work visa. Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd can undercut UK workers by a large percentage as Mr X works at Indian rates.

Mr X gets UK work experience, learns English and then is in a good position to apply for a UK work visa.

Does this really go on?

I think they do need a work visa, but this can be sponsored by Bigcorp India (uk) ltd.

[otolith]

I certainly know of one company which has been doing it for years.

[ShadownINja]

john_p said:

Mr X gets UK work experience, learns English and then is in a good position to apply for a UK work visa.

And then tries to apply for UK jobs at UK rates and gets undercut by "onshore" IT staff.

[rich1231]

Yes happens all over the place.

I'm working with loads of them at the moment. Some are great, some are awful. just like normal people

The onshored staff are at least expensive as UK based contract staff and process adds huge overheads to Projects. So I cannot understand the benefits. Buts thats not to say there are not talented individuals.

[paul99]

It's very common in IT. Where i currently work the govenment says that the systems cannot be supported by offshore staff, so all they did was bring the offshore staff over to the UK.

They are payed back in India with Indian level salary's, all there accomodation/food/travel expenses are payed so theres is quite a big incentive for them to do it.

A lot of them are very experienced and knowledgable and have a work ethic that puts a lot of us brits to shame

[Hedders]

The house next door to me is occupied by Indian IT guys who all work through some Indian Company 'mahindra tech' or some such.

There are approx 6-8 full time workers sharing the expenses in a 3 bed house.

I think they all work at Abbey National Santanda so atleast they aren't taking jobs from a British company

[prand]

Hedders said:

The house next door to me is occupied by Indian IT guys who all work through some Indian Company 'mahindra tech' or some such.

There are approx 6-8 full time workers sharing the expenses in a 3 bed house.

I think they all work at Abbey National Santanda so atleast they aren't taking jobs from a British company

Sounds very familiar.

We have people working with us who all share rented houses paid for by the mother company, mostly on short term visas. These run out every six months or so and the people are swapped out for some new guys & girls who arrive on on the next flight.

Useful for continuity...

[Fittster]

Hugely common. When it's happening to someone elses job/industry it's good for UK Plc.

When you lose out it's hard to be supportive of that logic.

[ewenm]

prand said:

Hedders said:

The house next door to me is occupied by Indian IT guys who all work through some Indian Company 'mahindra tech' or some such.

There are approx 6-8 full time workers sharing the expenses in a 3 bed house.

I think they all work at Abbey National Santanda so atleast they aren't taking jobs from a British company

Sounds very familiar.

We have people working with us who all share rented houses paid for by the mother company, mostly on short term visas. These run out every six months or so and the people are swapped out for some new guys & girls who arrive on on the next flight.

Useful for continuity...

...and quality control. I've worked on one project where they used on-shored staff and the variation in quality and ability was large. It can work if the client can specify which people they will accept (the ones that provide high quality work) but then you get the 6 month difficulties.

Overall, the project found it cheaper and easier to employ UK contractors.

[Bing o]

rich1231 said:

Buts thats not to say there are not talented individuals.

They aren't a patch on the Russian and Ukrainians we have started using. And they speak better english, work in a better timezone, and work out cheaper somehow?

[fido]

Bing o said:

rich1231 said:

Buts thats not to say there are not talented individuals.

They aren't a patch on the Russian and Ukrainians we have started using. And they speak better english, work in a better timezone, and work out cheaper somehow?

The Russians i've worked with have a massive attitude problem. Anyway, this is all total generalisation. The simple fact is that the universities here aren't producing the calibre required so whilst you can fault companies for taking a short-term view by not training up people from the UK, they wouldn't be able to compete with companies who don't just simple hire well .. the best people. Before we start on contractors, let's just look at football teams in this country?

Fittster said:

Hugely common. When it's happening to someone elses job/industry it's good for UK Plc.
When you lose out it's hard to be supportive of that logic.

That may be true, but neither can you fault companies (particularly multi-nationals) for trying to stay in business, whether they be football teams or not.

Edited by fido on Wednesday 10th February 00:28

[stigmundfreud]

john_p said:

Mr X is a software developer for Bigcorp India

Mr X gets transferred to their UK subsidiary, Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd, and moves to the UK

Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd offer Mr X out to UK companies looking for software
contractors.

As Mr X is an employee of Bigcorp India, he does not require a work visa. Bigcorp India (UK) Ltd can undercut UK workers by a large percentage as Mr X works at Indian rates.

Mr X gets UK work experience, learns English and then is in a good position to apply for a UK work visa.

Does this really go on?

Edited by john_p on Tuesday 9th February 13:39

gamcom? Either way yes it goes on and yes they are here doing that

[Dupont666]

paul99 said:

It's very common in IT. Where i currently work the govenment says that the systems cannot be supported by offshore staff, so all they did was bring the offshore staff over to the UK.

They are payed back in India with Indian level salary's, all there accomodation/food/travel expenses are payed so theres is quite a big incentive for them to do it.

A lot of them are very experienced and knowledgable and have a work ethic that puts a lot of us brits to shame

Are you sure you are talking about the same people here?

I have some that are expert programmers, yet I cant give them a spec to work off as that could confuse them and it will be wrong...

Last time I deligated work I not only had to give them psuedo code spec, that canme back as too difficult... I then had to write most of the code as then didnt understand what it was doing even with the 5 page written examples... It was a single database call from C# and the only thing that I couldnt do due to time restaints was the testing as it was a weeks worth and hence it went out.

Still not done (2 weeks) and the person in question is not answering my calls or emails... he is going to get a bking today if he hasnt done anything as I was being polite and trying to talk to him and now Im going to his team manager... As I need the working section on monday for my work.

[Bing o]

Dupont666 said:

paul99 said:

It's very common in IT. Where i currently work the govenment says that the systems cannot be supported by offshore staff, so all they did was bring the offshore staff over to the UK.

They are payed back in India with Indian level salary's, all there accomodation/food/travel expenses are payed so theres is quite a big incentive for them to do it.

A lot of them are very experienced and knowledgable and have a work ethic that puts a lot of us brits to shame

Are you sure you are talking about the same people here?

I have some that are expert programmers, yet I cant give them a spec to work off as that could confuse them and it will be wrong...

Last time I deligated work I not only had to give them psuedo code spec, that canme back as too difficult... I then had to write most of the code as then didnt understand what it was doing even with the 5 page written examples... It was a single database call from C# and the only thing that I couldnt do due to time restaints was the testing as it was a weeks worth and hence it went out.

Still not done (2 weeks) and the person in question is not answering my calls or emails... he is going to get a bking today if he hasnt done anything as I was being polite and trying to talk to him and now Im going to his team manager... As I need the working section on monday for my work.

Sounds like my world mate! I truly believe that I could get more done with 1 UK programmer in my office than ten of the useles s in Bangalore.

[ewenm]

Bing o said:

Dupont666 said:

paul99 said:

It's very common in IT. Where i currently work the govenment says that the systems cannot be supported by offshore staff, so all they did was bring the offshore staff over to the UK.

They are payed back in India with Indian level salary's, all there accomodation/food/travel expenses are payed so theres is quite a big incentive for them to do it.

A lot of them are very experienced and knowledgable and have a work ethic that puts a lot of us brits to shame

Are you sure you are talking about the same people here?

I have some that are expert programmers, yet I cant give them a spec to work off as that could confuse them and it will be wrong...

Last time I deligated work I not only had to give them psuedo code spec, that canme back as too difficult... I then had to write most of the code as then didnt understand what it was doing even with the 5 page written examples... It was a single database call from C# and the only thing that I couldnt do due to time restaints was the testing as it was a weeks worth and hence it went out.

Still not done (2 weeks) and the person in question is not answering my calls or emails... he is going to get a bking today if he hasnt done anything as I was being polite and trying to talk to him and now Im going to his team manager... As I need the working section on monday for my work.

Sounds like my world mate! I truly believe that I could get more done with 1 UK programmer in my office than ten of the useles s in Bangalore.

That was my experience in the one time I've been involved in a similar project - the offshore stuff was over-budget, late and had to have so much rework that it became worthless (much quicker to code it yourself than write the necessary level of detailed pseudocode in the spec). Some of the onshore people were ok, but it was hard to keep hold of them and get rid of the useless ones. Very much a false saving IMO.

[fido]

ewenm said:

Some of the onshore people were ok, but it was hard to keep hold of them and get rid of the useless ones.

Why was it hard to get rid of the useless one? Surely that is the issue here.