The price we pay to recreate a life for criminals.

[Lil' Joe]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/6035505/The-cri...

Pretty amazing really. Certainly a urine warmer. Interestingly, it says in the comments at the bottom that one of the Bulger murderer's fathered a son and the woman was unaware of who he was and is upset. Tough one that, he can't tell her who he is and blow his cover, but he can't have normal life without doing everything 'we' do.

For the record, I think Baby P's killers should have got longer, Bulgers killer's, as he has been recalled for drugs and violence offence's should be banged up for another 20 years and none of them should have a new life (approx £1m per person) paid for by me and you.

[Puggit]

I believe one of the terms of the freedom licences are the Bulger killers have to disclose to anyone they forge a strong relationship with as to who they are.

Edited by Puggit on Thursday 4th March 10:14

[youngsyr]

I can totally understand that the cost of protecting witnesses is justified, but surely the life that comes with being notorious for a crime is part of the consequences of committing the crime?

I don't see why any of these criminals should be given a new identity - so what if they can't live a normal life after they're released from prison? Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

As for the reprisal attacks actually happening, we live in Britain, not Johannesburg. I can't see the raving masses that were foaming at the mouth when the cases were originally reported having anywhere near as much zeal twenty odd years later and I doubt that even 1 in 100,000 had it in them to carry out their threats in the first place. Regardless, it wouldn't bother me if the attacks did happen, the police should just investigate them as they would any other attack.

[Busa_Rush]

youngsyr said:

I don't see why any of these criminals should be given a new identity - so what if they can't live a normal life after they're released from prison? Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

But you'd expect the Police to protect you and 1000's of other people from the lynch mobs which would follow every rumour in their search for him. The cost of preventing mass riots etc would reach a million in a few weeks . . . imagine what the cost would be over a period of 60 years ? It's far cheaper to make him invisible than it is to protect him and the 1000's of people around him, innocent by-standers, people who happen to live next to him etc.

[Chemical Ali]

youngsyr said:

I can totally understand that the cost of protecting witnesses is justified, but surely the life that comes with being notorious for a crime is part of the consequences of committing the crime?

I don't see why any of these criminals should be given a new identity - so what if they can't live a normal life after they're released from prison? Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

As for the reprisal attacks actually happening, we live in Britain, not Johannesburg. I can't see the raving masses that were foaming at the mouth when the cases were originally reported having anywhere near as much zeal twenty odd years later and I doubt that even 1 in 100,000 had it in them to carry out their threats in the first place. Regardless, it wouldn't bother me if the attacks did happen, the police should just investigate them as they would any other attack.

There wouldn't be reprise attacks if the punishment was sufficient. They stoned that kid to death for fun. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

I will press the button or tie the noose!

[HiRich]

youngsyr said:

As for the reprisal attacks actually happening, we live in Britain, not Johannesburg.

There have been multiple cases of mob threats to "Maxine Carr" around the country, and that's just considering the ones where it wasn't Maxine Carr.
It happpens.

[youngsyr]

HiRich said:

youngsyr said:

As for the reprisal attacks actually happening, we live in Britain, not Johannesburg.

There have been multiple cases of mob threats to "Maxine Carr" around the country, and that's just considering the ones where it wasn't Maxine Carr.
It happpens.

There's a difference between threats and actions. I'd suggest it's a very rare event and certainly not worth the millions paid to give these criminals new identities.

[youngsyr]

Busa_Rush said:

youngsyr said:

I don't see why any of these criminals should be given a new identity - so what if they can't live a normal life after they're released from prison? Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

But you'd expect the Police to protect you and 1000's of other people from the lynch mobs which would follow every rumour in their search for him. The cost of preventing mass riots etc would reach a million in a few weeks . . . imagine what the cost would be over a period of 60 years ? It's far cheaper to make him invisible than it is to protect him and the 1000's of people around him, innocent by-standers, people who happen to live next to him etc.

I think you're over-egging the situation somewhat; this isn't the middle ages, people generally don't tend to grab their pitch forks and form mobs to hunt down people any more.

As for needing protecting from the mobs acting on rumours, why would I need protecting from them if the criminals are walking around using their own name?

Surely using your logic it's more dangerous for me (and others) if they are given a new identity as I could be mistaken for them?

Edited by youngsyr on Thursday 4th March 16:14

[HiRich]

youngsyr said:

There's a difference between threats and actions. I'd suggest it's a very rare event and certainly not worth the millions paid to give these criminals new identities.

Do you consider mobs throwing stones, shouting, and trying to break into your house a threat or an action? Several "Maxine Carrs" have been subject to imminent physical violence - of the sort where pitchforks are replaced with baseball bats. The quotes are because none of them were actually Maxine Carr, just outsiders who got caught by a mob mentality.

[esselte]

HiRich said:

youngsyr said:

There's a difference between threats and actions. I'd suggest it's a very rare event and certainly not worth the millions paid to give these criminals new identities.

Do you consider mobs throwing stones, shouting, and trying to break into your house a threat or an action? Several "Maxine Carrs" have been subject to imminent physical violence - of the sort where pitchforks are replaced with baseball bats. The quotes are because none of them were actually Maxine Carr, just outsiders who got caught by a mob mentality.

So, safer for the majority if the real Maxine Carr is able to be identified...?

[youngsyr]

HiRich said:

youngsyr said:

There's a difference between threats and actions. I'd suggest it's a very rare event and certainly not worth the millions paid to give these criminals new identities.

Do you consider mobs throwing stones, shouting, and trying to break into your house a threat or an action? Several "Maxine Carrs" have been subject to imminent physical violence - of the sort where pitchforks are replaced with baseball bats. The quotes are because none of them were actually Maxine Carr, just outsiders who got caught by a mob mentality.

Imminent physical violence - isn't that the same as a threat of physical violence? Otherwise it they would have been subject to actual physical violence, surely?

The other "violent actions" you mention are hardly something we need to spend millions to protect one individual from, they happen on a daily basis in some of the less salubrious neighbourhoods in Britain and no-one seems to care. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if someone wants to throw a few stones at these type of people.

You're also missing the point that the cases you mention about Maxine Carr were a case of mistaken identity; I dare say there would be significantly fewer cases of mistaken identity if the criminals' original identities weren't hidden.

[BoRED S2upid]

A million quid for a new identity! you are kidding me right? They want to look into some forged documents, a minute figure compared to the price they are paying!

[anonymous-user]

To hear some of the kneejerk comments on here anyone would think that there are thousands of people walking around with new identities paid for by the tax payer. In fact there are 4 - the Bulger killers and Mary Bell who were children at the time of their offences and Maxine Carr. The case for Carr would be less compelling if Britain wasn't full of the kind of braindead morons who attacked a peadiatrician because they got confused and thought she was a peadophile.

[youngsyr]

unrepentant said:

To hear some of the kneejerk comments on here anyone would think that there are thousands of people walking around with new identities paid for by the tax payer. In fact there are 4 - the Bulger killers and Mary Bell who were children at the time of their offences and Maxine Carr. The case for Carr would be less compelling if Britain wasn't full of the kind of braindead morons who attacked a peadiatrician because they got confused and thought she was a peadophile.

That's still £4 million (Telegraph's estimate) that could have better been used elsewhere.

[HiRich]

youngsyr said:

Imminent physical violence - isn't that the same as a threat of physical violence? Otherwise it they would have been subject to actual physical violence, surely?

The other "violent actions" you mention are hardly something we need to spend millions to protect one individual from, they happen on a daily basis in some of the less salubrious neighbourhoods in Britain and no-one seems to care. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if someone wants to throw a few stones at these type of people.

You're also missing the point that the cases you mention about Maxine Carr were a case of mistaken identity; I dare say there would be significantly fewer cases of mistaken identity if the criminals' original identities weren't hidden.

So rocks thrown at your house aren't a problem, as long as they don't hit you? When a mob forms onm your front garden then tries to break in, you'll be complaining about the noise rather than the threat to beat you to a bloody pulp? That's certainly not a common view.

On your other point, I think even notorious murderers and mobs have heard of aliasses. With more 'normal' cases, the criminal may move away to start over, but in these specific cases, it has been considered appropriate to provide them with deep cover.