The EU - shirley it'll end in tears, or worse?
Discussion
I don't claim to be any kind of expert on political or historical matters, so I'm sure someone will be able to help me out with my confusion. (I sometimes think I'm not bright enough to have too strong an opinion on these matters, but on the other hand I have recently met such esteemed personalities as David Milliband and Catherine Ashton and I refuse to believe that they are much brainier than yours truly, if at all.)
The history of our world is littered with hundreds of examples of war, conflict and strife as individual nations try to extricate themselves from the grip of a larger entity. They do this for many reasons, but mostly because they want their own national identity & sovereignty and to be master of their own destiny. Yet, many nations seem to be quite happily giving up these priviledges, albeit gradually, to the EU.
We in the UK, in fairly recent history, have fought bloody wars against foreign powers for this very reason, and yet off we go giving up more and more to the EU. Also in the UK we have representatives of Scotland, for example, arguing for secession from the UK as they want to govern themselves, and yet the same people will state that they would want an independent Soctland to join the EU.......
The Balkans saw a vicious war 1992-1995 as the various parts of Yugoslavia chose independence from what was for many years arguably a successful, peaceful and prosperous grouping of nations. Now the makeshift nations created out of the Dayton agreement are all talking about getting into the EU as soon as possible, and giving up a lot of the independence they gained through massive bloodshed only 15 years ago.
Some Eastern European nations, who fought to separate themselves from the USSR and Russian influence under the banner of independence are following the same route.
Ireland has fought for years to be and stay separate from the UK, and yet they will happily give up elements of their sovereignty to the EU, of which the UK is a powerful member. (I realise Ireland is a complex subject, to say the least, but even so.....)
There are obviously advantages to joining the EU, especially if you are a poorer nation, but there are disadvantages as well, and in the case of the Balkans, for example, a lot of the advantages they stand to gain by joining the EU they had anyway as part of Tito's Yugoslavia.
So, how long before nationalistic feelings start to rise in some of these nations, and they forget about the advantages, concentrate on the disadvantages and seek to extricate themselves from the EU - hopefully without a war, but you never know what the future holds.
Anyway, I'm quite willing to believe that my viewpoint and thinking on these matters is too simplistic - guidance welcomed to put my mind at rest.
The history of our world is littered with hundreds of examples of war, conflict and strife as individual nations try to extricate themselves from the grip of a larger entity. They do this for many reasons, but mostly because they want their own national identity & sovereignty and to be master of their own destiny. Yet, many nations seem to be quite happily giving up these priviledges, albeit gradually, to the EU.
We in the UK, in fairly recent history, have fought bloody wars against foreign powers for this very reason, and yet off we go giving up more and more to the EU. Also in the UK we have representatives of Scotland, for example, arguing for secession from the UK as they want to govern themselves, and yet the same people will state that they would want an independent Soctland to join the EU.......
The Balkans saw a vicious war 1992-1995 as the various parts of Yugoslavia chose independence from what was for many years arguably a successful, peaceful and prosperous grouping of nations. Now the makeshift nations created out of the Dayton agreement are all talking about getting into the EU as soon as possible, and giving up a lot of the independence they gained through massive bloodshed only 15 years ago.
Some Eastern European nations, who fought to separate themselves from the USSR and Russian influence under the banner of independence are following the same route.
Ireland has fought for years to be and stay separate from the UK, and yet they will happily give up elements of their sovereignty to the EU, of which the UK is a powerful member. (I realise Ireland is a complex subject, to say the least, but even so.....)
There are obviously advantages to joining the EU, especially if you are a poorer nation, but there are disadvantages as well, and in the case of the Balkans, for example, a lot of the advantages they stand to gain by joining the EU they had anyway as part of Tito's Yugoslavia.
So, how long before nationalistic feelings start to rise in some of these nations, and they forget about the advantages, concentrate on the disadvantages and seek to extricate themselves from the EU - hopefully without a war, but you never know what the future holds.
Anyway, I'm quite willing to believe that my viewpoint and thinking on these matters is too simplistic - guidance welcomed to put my mind at rest.
Edited by andy400 on Tuesday 16th March 16:08
grumbledoak said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
surely the key point is 'choice'
If only they would offer us one!I think a nasty break up remains a possibility.
Tangent Police, 
andy400 said:
We in the UK, in fairly recent history, have fought bloody wars against foreign powers for this very reason, and yet off we go giving up more and more to the EU. Also in the UK we have representatives of Scotland, for example, arguing for secession from the UK as they want to govern themselves, and yet the same people will state that they would want an independent Soctland to join the EU.......
The reason for that is fairly simple to understand. An independent Scotland (if it could be viable) could only be viable as part of a larger grouping of countries, more than likely using the € as its currency. A lot of people on here seem to think that the UK as it is presently constituted is big enough not to need to be part of Europe, that might change if Scotland were ever to become independent. Again. 
Gargamel said:
Also - for Scotland & Ireland - being ruled by the Crown is hardly comparable to ceding powers to a democratic body.
Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
I think 2/3 of the island of Ireland would see a problem with the above statement.Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
Eric Mc said:
Gargamel said:
Also - for Scotland & Ireland - being ruled by the Crown is hardly comparable to ceding powers to a democratic body.
Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
I think 2/3 of the island of Ireland would see a problem with the above statement.Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
The OP refers to Ireland resisting the English Crown but being willing to participate in the EU.
Gargamel said:
Eric Mc said:
Gargamel said:
Also - for Scotland & Ireland - being ruled by the Crown is hardly comparable to ceding powers to a democratic body.
Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
I think 2/3 of the island of Ireland would see a problem with the above statement.Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
The OP refers to Ireland resisting the English Crown but being willing to participate in the EU.
TEKNOPUG said:
Gargamel said:
Eric Mc said:
Gargamel said:
Also - for Scotland & Ireland - being ruled by the Crown is hardly comparable to ceding powers to a democratic body.
Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
I think 2/3 of the island of Ireland would see a problem with the above statement.Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
The OP refers to Ireland resisting the English Crown but being willing to participate in the EU.
2/3s voted against the EU and yet they are still in?
odyssey2200 said:
TEKNOPUG said:
Gargamel said:
Eric Mc said:
Gargamel said:
Also - for Scotland & Ireland - being ruled by the Crown is hardly comparable to ceding powers to a democratic body.
Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
I think 2/3 of the island of Ireland would see a problem with the above statement.Appreciate the effects might sometimes be similar, but they can vote, return MEPs and participate. Rather than simply be dictated to.
People rather than subjects
The OP refers to Ireland resisting the English Crown but being willing to participate in the EU.
2/3s voted against the EU and yet they are still in?
The Irish Republic, being a Republic, has a written constitution (unlike the UK). Therefore, for certain decisions, referenda are legally required. Ireland held a referendum in 1972 on whether to join the (then) EEC or not. The result at the time was an overwhelming "Yes" to joining.
The referendum on the EU constitution was different. First, the Irish government insisted that a referendum was unecessary as it wasn't a proper constitution. It was only when they lost a legal challenge in the Irish High Court that the first referendum was held - with the result the government had dreaded.
We all know what happened next.
The referendum on the EU constitution was different. First, the Irish government insisted that a referendum was unecessary as it wasn't a proper constitution. It was only when they lost a legal challenge in the Irish High Court that the first referendum was held - with the result the government had dreaded.
We all know what happened next.
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