Google Stops Censoring in China

[Jimbeaux]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/03/22/google.china/in...

[Mark34bn]

It's a bit bullish of Google to overrule the Chinese government and go ahead with their plan. The censorship is outdated and wrong in many ways but this could end up with people rioting once they see that the grass is greener elsewhere.

Edited by Mark34bn on Tuesday 23 March 09:42

[IainT]

Some example searches run by a radio 5 reporter from Beijing using Google.hk (e.g. tieanamen massacre) gave 404 results for the search page so the Chinese authorities are clearly blocking all content from their people with any controversioal terms in them.

I applaud Google's stance on this though. There's a point where your ethical view becomes incompatible with an environment and a stance must be taken.

[Jimbeaux]

Mark34bn said:

It's a bit bullish of Google to overrule the Chinese government and go ahead with their plan. The censorship is outdated and wrong in many ways but this could end up with people rioting once they see that the grass is greener elsewhere.

Edited by Mark34bn on Tuesday 23 March 09:42

Hopefully so; that is probably exactly what is needed there.

[randlemarcus]

Raises Google back a few points in my estimation. This is positive from them, as they just put a huge amount of ChiCom revenue on the line in the hope that ChiNonCom revenue following the revolution will be ginormous.

[madbadger]

Good.



Ministry of State Security. How is Beijing today?

[poo at Paul's]

That'll stop the millions of new members and all the "what car, a JaYlooong noodlebox or a Wangchung Ditchmobile" threads.

[madbadger]

poo at Paul's said:

That'll stop the millions of new members and all the "what car, a JaYlooong noodlebox or a Wangchung Ditchmobile" threads.

"Which of these tyres will be least likely to kill me?"

[rpguk]

It shows the size and power of google, they are in the position of being a company with the muscle of a government.

I wonder how much backing they have from the US Gov on this?

[scorp]

rpguk said:

It shows the size and power of google, they are in the position of being a company with the muscle of a government.

I wonder how much backing they have from the US Gov on this?

Not sure they will be muscling the .cn govt, they've already been publically threatened with a ban if they don't comply with the law, so to save face we will see the inevitable kicking out of china for google.

[Pommygranite]

My gf worked with a Chinese guy who flatly refused to believe there was censorship in china even when shown otherwise.

I would think that many Chinese will continue to believe what they are told given that's mind control since birth. Only those with knowledge of say t square would go looking for it so they are already 'subversive'

[MX7]

I often hear that the West should respect other nations, and keep out of their affairs. The same rules don't appear to apply to this.

Of course it's good that it will increase freedom of information, but you can't push a country like China into a situation that they are not happy with. Reform will, and has, partly, happened in China. Imposing something like this might stagnate their progress, or, even worse, regress it.

[randlemarcus]

MX7 said:

I often hear that the West should respect other nations, and keep out of their affairs. The same rules don't appear to apply to this.

Of course it's good that it will increase freedom of information, but you can't push a country like China into a situation that they are not happy with. Reform will, and has, partly, happened in China. Imposing something like this might stagnate their progress, or, even worse, regress it.

Slightly different situation. This is not Obama or Hillary doing the Human Rights thing. This is a commercial entity, having negotiated with the State to implement search on their rules, so as to deny the inhabitants of that State full and unfettered access to the Internet. This having been done, the State has sponsored theft of Intellectual Property, and cyber attacks on that companies property, in the expectation of gaining access to data held in other jurisdictions which the State has no right over. This is about a commercial entity then saying "ah well, c'est la vie, we wont filter at all from China then"

[MX7]

randlemarcus said:

Slightly different situation. This is not Obama or Hillary doing the Human Rights thing. This is a commercial entity, having negotiated with the State to implement search on their rules, so as to deny the inhabitants of that State full and unfettered access to the Internet. This having been done, the State has sponsored theft of Intellectual Property, and cyber attacks on that companies property, in the expectation of gaining access to data held in other jurisdictions which the State has no right over. This is about a commercial entity then saying "ah well, c'est la vie, we wont filter at all from China then"

It's unknown who was behind the attacks. Plenty of speculation, but no proof.

Is it acceptable for commercial Western companies to disregard the wishes of a country? If Google thought that the Government were behind the hackings, and disapproved of the censorship, I'd have thought that the correct route to take would be for Google to say that their product is incompatible with China, and to withdraw. Instead, they seem willing to renege on their agreement, and trample over Chinese wishes.

While I would like to see China become far less authoritarian, I'm not convinced that Google are going the right way about it. Personally, I feel that Google are being quite moralistic about this, and are trying to involve themselves with something that is very delicate, and well outside their area of expertise.

At worst, I could see China taking a completely draconian approach to this, and imposing even more censorship, which doesn't help anyone.

[randlemarcus]

MX7 said:

It's unknown who was behind the attacks. Plenty of speculation, but no proof.

Is it acceptable for commercial Western companies to disregard the wishes of a country? If Google thought that the Government were behind the hackings, and disapproved of the censorship, I'd have thought that the correct route to take would be for Google to say that their product is incompatible with China, and to withdraw. Instead, they seem willing to renege on their agreement, and trample over Chinese wishes.

While I would like to see China become far less authoritarian, I'm not convinced that Google are going the right way about it. Personally, I feel that Google are being quite moralistic about this, and are trying to involve themselves with something that is very delicate, and well outside their area of expertise.

At worst, I could see China taking a completely draconian approach to this, and imposing even more censorship, which doesn't help anyone.

But the bold bit is what they are doing. They are withdrawing google.cn and moving Chinese stuff to google.com.hk, and will be getting rid of the 700 odd staff inside the mainland.

Google have a responsibility to their stakeholders, not to the Chinese State, nor to Amnesty International. If they feel uncomfortable with a commercial arrangement, let them end it.

[Rude-boy]

MX7 said:

At worst, I could see China taking a completely draconian approach to this, and imposing even more censorship, which doesn't help anyone.

From the tone of your posts i suspect you may have far more knowledge that i on this topic but fwiw i am not sure you are right.

This is not 1989 anymore, that was 21 years ago. The World is a very different place now, particularly where the growth of external influencing factors, such as the internet, come into play.

China realised that it would not be able to survive as a communist entity in the old form in the new World and so had to chose between isolationism on a macro scale, or integration on a micro scale. They chose the latter and, just like Goby did, have found themselves on a path (Perestroika) that will lead them into Glanost and eventually an awakening of true political interest and activity in large numbers of the general populace.

The only way they will be able to deal with this is to control the pace at which this occurs, which will be impossible to totally control, or to put the shutters down again. I'm not sure that they can afford financially or politically to do the latter anymore.

[MX7]

randlemarcus said:

But the bold bit is what they are doing. They are withdrawing google.cn and moving Chinese stuff to google.com.hk, and will be getting rid of the 700 odd staff inside the mainland.

Those landing on the Hong Kong page were greeted with the words “Welcome to Google Search in China’s new home”.

I don't think that's the same as withdrawing, it's just side stepping the regulations.

[Deva Link]

MX7 said:

randlemarcus said:

But the bold bit is what they are doing. They are withdrawing google.cn and moving Chinese stuff to google.com.hk, and will be getting rid of the 700 odd staff inside the mainland.

Those landing on the Hong Kong page were greeted with the words “Welcome to Google Search in China’s new home”.

I don't think that's the same as withdrawing, it's just side stepping the regulations.

It's important to realise that it still doesn't work though - the page gets censored on it's way back into China. Google's point is that it this makes it more obvious than if they do the censoring themselves.

The business opportunity for Google in China is immense and they dearly want to be there.

[MX7]

Rude-boy said:

China realised that it would not be able to survive as a communist entity in the old form in the new World and so had to chose between isolationism on a macro scale, or integration on a micro scale. They chose the latter and, just like Goby did, have found themselves on a path (Perestroika) that will lead them into Glanost and eventually an awakening of true political interest and activity in large numbers of the general populace.

I think that China is far more capable of being a self reliant entity than the USSR ever was, but either way, China will never be pushed into a situation that they are not 100% happy with, which is exactly what Google are trying to do.

Rude-boy said:

The only way they will be able to deal with this is to control the pace at which this occurs, which will be impossible to totally control, or to put the shutters down again. I'm not sure that they can afford financially or politically to do the latter anymore.

Actually, I think they are fully capable of doing just that. They don't have to adhere to the same expectations of human rights as the rest of the world does, as their media is so restricted, so they can get away with far more. Economically, the West will never decline the cheap Chinese tat that we get, because we simply can't afford to, and China currently holds massive amounts of $US, which, if it released too quickly, would make quite an impact in the dollar.

China are still close allies of North Korea, and having read what happened there recently, I wouldn't rule out anything. China will do what's best for China, and nothing more.