Black pupils 'are routinely marked down by teachers'
Discussion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/apr/04/sa...
So the UK is still awful and racist (and classist). Just in case anyone had forgotten. Yet Teachers are still trying to claim that external testing should be done away with, disgraceful.
So the UK is still awful and racist (and classist). Just in case anyone had forgotten. Yet Teachers are still trying to claim that external testing should be done away with, disgraceful.
Edited by Willie Dee on Wednesday 7th April 01:17
That's funny. I did teacher training at the University of Bristol and at that time, the big fuss about underachievers was about mixreeeece.
Blacks fine.
Whites fine.
Yellows fine.
Reds fine.
"Mixrace", not fine.
The funny thing I remember was this big black (and I mean properly black) woman came in to do a lecture about being a rassclat or something and this lad stood up and made a "I is wid you init" to this woman and she promptly eyeballed him and said "you is not black, you is mixreeeece" which I found rather amusing.
It was the first time I had seen degrees-of-blackism in action.
I am also not exaggerating
The mixed race students have identity problems which really does affect their performance to generalise.
Having said, there are a significantly bigger portion of chav-scum who's performance is affected by drugs and f
king.
Blacks fine.
Whites fine.
Yellows fine.
Reds fine.
"Mixrace", not fine.
The funny thing I remember was this big black (and I mean properly black) woman came in to do a lecture about being a rassclat or something and this lad stood up and made a "I is wid you init" to this woman and she promptly eyeballed him and said "you is not black, you is mixreeeece" which I found rather amusing.
It was the first time I had seen degrees-of-blackism in action. I am also not exaggerating
The mixed race students have identity problems which really does affect their performance to generalise.
Having said, there are a significantly bigger portion of chav-scum who's performance is affected by drugs and f
king. I know plenty of people who performed considerably better in externally assessed tests, than they did in internally assessed tests. This was chiefly because kids figure out at a very early age that internal assessment counts for absolutely nothing and that external exams are the only ones worth a damn.
The smart kids are the ones who do the bare minimum of work required to get by, yet still perform well in the external exams. Maybe the black kids have mastered the art of "piss around and have a great time all term, but knuckle down and nail the external exams"?
The smart kids are the ones who do the bare minimum of work required to get by, yet still perform well in the external exams. Maybe the black kids have mastered the art of "piss around and have a great time all term, but knuckle down and nail the external exams"?
wiffmaster said:
Maybe the black kids have mastered the art of "piss around and have a great time all term, but knuckle down and nail the external exams"?
Yes, it couldn't possibly be that racism thrives in the UK and must be those pesky blacks pulling the wool over everyone's eyes across the spectrum.Willie Dee said:
Yes, it couldn't possibly be that racism thrives in the UK and must be those pesky blacks pulling the wool over everyone's eyes across the spectrum.
I actually meant it as a compliment to the black kids. All I'm saying is that, if there's disparity between internal and external exam results, then it may not be the teachers 'undermarking'. It may just be that the kids try considerably harder for the external exams. The same study says that children from certain Asian backgrounds are 'overmarked'. Could it be that their parents keep a closer eye on their school work (as is common is some Asian cultures) and artificially bolster their results? So come external exam time, the Asian kids under perform when left solely to their own devices?
I don't think this is a simple as 'racism' - it'll be a combination of factors and I'm willing to bet 'sub-concious' racism doesn't factor that highly in the 'correlation/causation' analysis.
If this really is an issue (and I'm not entirely convinced that it is), then the obvious solution is to move to an anonymous marking system similar to that of universities.
wiffmaster said:
Willie Dee said:
Yes, it couldn't possibly be that racism thrives in the UK and must be those pesky blacks pulling the wool over everyone's eyes across the spectrum.
I actually meant it as a compliment to the black kids. All I'm saying is that, if there's disparity between internal and external exam results, then it may not be the teachers 'undermarking'. It may just be that the kids try considerably harder for the external exams. The same study says that children from certain Asian backgrounds are 'overmarked'. Could it be that their parents keep a closer eye on their school work (as is common is some Asian cultures) and artificially bolster their results? So come external exam time, the Asian kids under perform when left solely to their own devices?
I don't think this is a simple as 'racism' - it'll be a combination of factors and I'm willing to bet 'sub-concious' racism doesn't factor that highly in the 'correlation/causation' analysis.
If this really is an issue (and I'm not entirely convinced that it is), then the obvious solution is to move to an anonymous marking system similar to that of universities.
Do you realise how stupid you are coming across?
Racism is a massive factor in school across the UK and people like yourself who try and dismiss it and come up with rediculous alternative theories to explain results away are part of the problem.
Willie Dee said:
So what your trying to argue is that it is more likely parents of Asian children are getting involved in tests but only when its internal testing, and ignoring the external SAT testing, which you have claimed to be more important. Why would they do this? Are these Asian parents not as smart as the black children who are hoodwinking their teachers on a day to day basis across a broad spectrum to only try in the tests, which as you say, count more?
Do you realise how stupid you are coming across?
Racism is a massive factor in school across the UK and people like yourself who try and dismiss it and come up with rediculous alternative theories to explain results away are part of the problem.
Whoa! Slow down there - you wouldn't want to resort to ad-hominems and make yourself look stupid. Do you realise how stupid you are coming across?
Racism is a massive factor in school across the UK and people like yourself who try and dismiss it and come up with rediculous alternative theories to explain results away are part of the problem.
I'm not saying there isn't racism in schools, I'm just saying I think there are infinitely more factors than 'sub-concious racism' involved here. I don't think racism will be much a factor in this case at all.
Parents can't get involved with external exams - that's the whole point in them. They're marked by people who don't know the kids and only have the exam to judge on. Parents can't influence the results in any way.
Whereas parents can influence their children's internal work. If the teacher has a good impression of a child because that kid hands in excellent homework, then the teacher is more likely to think what that child has written in their exam is of good quality and therefore overmark.
This is why external exams are the benchmark and internal exams are pretty much useless. This study may have found a correlation between race and under/over marking, but I don't think they've come to the correct conclusion when they claim it's 'sub-concious' racism. They need to take into account so many other factors (degree of parental involvement, how education is viewed within that culture, how the children of different races view the importance of internal/external examinations) which they've seemingly ignored. There's absolutely no logical link between the correlation they've found and the conclusion they've come up with.
Racism is a problem in schools, but I don't think it's a major factor in this case. I don't believe for one second that teachers are sub-consciously marking kids down according to race.
Edited by wiffmaster on Wednesday 7th April 05:51
wiffmaster said:
Parents can't get involved with external exams - that's the whole point in them. They're marked by people who don't know the kids and only have the exam to judge on. Parents can't influence the results in any way.
Whereas parents can influence their children's internal work. If the teacher has a good impression of a child because that kid hands in excellent homework, then the teacher is more likely to think what that child has written in their exam is of good quality and therefore overmark.
How does a parent influence an exam at school, be it internal or external? Sure they can influence homework assignments by getting involved, but they cant go into the class room and sit over the shoulder of the child. Whereas parents can influence their children's internal work. If the teacher has a good impression of a child because that kid hands in excellent homework, then the teacher is more likely to think what that child has written in their exam is of good quality and therefore overmark.
Do you really believe that parental involvement is so stereotypical that it would explain such failures in the school internal exams? And if that is the reason why teachers have low expectations of certain races is that not still racism?
Apologies for getting a bit ad-hom previously.
Edited by Willie Dee on Wednesday 7th April 06:28
Willie Dee said:
wiffmaster said:
Parents can't get involved with external exams - that's the whole point in them. They're marked by people who don't know the kids and only have the exam to judge on. Parents can't influence the results in any way.
Whereas parents can influence their children's internal work. If the teacher has a good impression of a child because that kid hands in excellent homework, then the teacher is more likely to think what that child has written in their exam is of good quality and therefore overmark.
How does a parent influence an exam at school, be it internal or external? Sure they can influence homework assignments by getting involved, but they cant go into the class room and sit over the shoulder of the child. Whereas parents can influence their children's internal work. If the teacher has a good impression of a child because that kid hands in excellent homework, then the teacher is more likely to think what that child has written in their exam is of good quality and therefore overmark.
Edited by Willie Dee on Wednesday 7th April 06:28
Black kids have poorer grades, therefore they must have been marked down for being black.
Maybe they didn't work as hard?
We set up a local project office in a west african country a few years back and the standards of work quality and efficiency were shocking.
We set one up in India, it worked beautifully.
We set one up in Qatar, it worked beautifully.
We set one up in Oman, it worked beautifully.
ETA a smiley in case anybody thought I was being really serious
Maybe they didn't work as hard?
We set up a local project office in a west african country a few years back and the standards of work quality and efficiency were shocking.
We set one up in India, it worked beautifully.
We set one up in Qatar, it worked beautifully.
We set one up in Oman, it worked beautifully.
ETA a smiley in case anybody thought I was being really serious
Edited by Lefty Two Drams on Wednesday 7th April 15:14
A few years back one of my (white) friends was training to be a teacher. At some stage she had to sit through all the racism and homophobia awareness stuff and then sit some assessment at the end of it which concluded she was both racist and homophobic to some extent. Her tutor couldn't understand why she didn't take the results seriously: however her asian girl friend couldn't help but laugh as well.
So teachers are not immune to favouritism, bigotry and bias? No st!
As a kid, I did my first few years of junior school in a not too good, state school in a fairly poor area of south Wales. Then family Digga moved to a nice, Midlands county town and shifted me into a very sweet, ultra (lower) middle class school - still in the state system but very much near the top end - and left me to coninue (read, catch up on) my education.
Now kids being kids, and boys being boys, in a small, insular school, wanted to establish 'who' the scruffy new kid, with the funny accent (think half way between Cardiff/Barry Island) was. Howver, bearing in mind I'd just come from a school where kids regularly bunked-off and where the slightest insult, if taken, would usually pave the way to having your head flushed down the toilet/dinner money stolen/face punched/all of the above [delete as appropriate] I was not about to let myself become the next target for ridicule and outlet for pent up aggression. Long story short, I was (unfairly) marked as a trouble maker.
Three years later, entering secondary school all children had their grades reviewed - presumably because of the inherent unreliability of those provided by previous schools - and I was shifted up, sometimes several sets, in most subjects within the first couple of terms.
Do teachers have 'favourites'? Hell yes.
Are they incapable of rational and objective assesment? Well they've been in education all their lives, so possibly yes.
This is an old story.
t! As a kid, I did my first few years of junior school in a not too good, state school in a fairly poor area of south Wales. Then family Digga moved to a nice, Midlands county town and shifted me into a very sweet, ultra (lower) middle class school - still in the state system but very much near the top end - and left me to coninue (read, catch up on) my education.
Now kids being kids, and boys being boys, in a small, insular school, wanted to establish 'who' the scruffy new kid, with the funny accent (think half way between Cardiff/Barry Island) was. Howver, bearing in mind I'd just come from a school where kids regularly bunked-off and where the slightest insult, if taken, would usually pave the way to having your head flushed down the toilet/dinner money stolen/face punched/all of the above [delete as appropriate] I was not about to let myself become the next target for ridicule and outlet for pent up aggression. Long story short, I was (unfairly) marked as a trouble maker.
Three years later, entering secondary school all children had their grades reviewed - presumably because of the inherent unreliability of those provided by previous schools - and I was shifted up, sometimes several sets, in most subjects within the first couple of terms.
Do teachers have 'favourites'? Hell yes.
Are they incapable of rational and objective assesment? Well they've been in education all their lives, so possibly yes.
This is an old story.
mcdjl said:
A few years back one of my (white) friends was training to be a teacher. At some stage she had to sit through all the racism and homophobia awareness stuff and then sit some assessment at the end of it which concluded she was both racist and homophobic to some extent. Her tutor couldn't understand why she didn't take the results seriously: however her asian girl friend couldn't help but laugh as well.
It's like a new Puritanism.SmoothRB said:
mcdjl said:
A few years back one of my (white) friends was training to be a teacher. At some stage she had to sit through all the racism and homophobia awareness stuff and then sit some assessment at the end of it which concluded she was both racist and homophobic to some extent. Her tutor couldn't understand why she didn't take the results seriously: however her asian girl friend couldn't help but laugh as well.
It's like a new Puritanism.It's very interesting data that should not be ignored and brushed under the table.
Similarly, why look for obscure causes and dismiss the most obvious one? Teachers have favourites, make assumptions and it would appear have low expectations of black children, which they are inadvertently superimposing when they mark internal exams. I'm sure there are other factors at play but this is the most obviously prevalent one.
People understandably get uptight when "Racism" is mentioned in this context due to the connotations of being a flag waving BNP knuckle dragger. However, there is definitely a mechanism in operation here. Very likely it is inadvertent, but it does need to be discussed openly.
pp
Similarly, why look for obscure causes and dismiss the most obvious one? Teachers have favourites, make assumptions and it would appear have low expectations of black children, which they are inadvertently superimposing when they mark internal exams. I'm sure there are other factors at play but this is the most obviously prevalent one.
People understandably get uptight when "Racism" is mentioned in this context due to the connotations of being a flag waving BNP knuckle dragger. However, there is definitely a mechanism in operation here. Very likely it is inadvertent, but it does need to be discussed openly.
pp
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