Scotland and the Scottish
Discussion
As someone who enjoys Scotland, there is one thing I would like to understand better about the place ;
Why is Scotland apparently made up, largely, of Socialists?
The almost unanimously left wing vote from the people of this nation makes it at odds with the rest of the UK, especially now that Wales has a fair number of Tories.
Perhaps this supports the notion of Scotland as an Independent state.
Any insite from the PH collective?
Why is Scotland apparently made up, largely, of Socialists?
The almost unanimously left wing vote from the people of this nation makes it at odds with the rest of the UK, especially now that Wales has a fair number of Tories.
Perhaps this supports the notion of Scotland as an Independent state.
Any insite from the PH collective?
I will say this... Scotland would not survive on it's own as a single state. in the recent banking crisis they would have had no chance in bailing out the RBS and would have ended up like iceland.
Scots however are fiercly patriotic and see themselves as "scottish" more than "british"...
They see the Conservatives as an "English" party with no real ties or interest in Scotland and so by default labor is the closest they can get to a party which is neither pro union, but won't encourage independence either.
Scots however are fiercly patriotic and see themselves as "scottish" more than "british"...
They see the Conservatives as an "English" party with no real ties or interest in Scotland and so by default labor is the closest they can get to a party which is neither pro union, but won't encourage independence either.
toppstuff said:
Any insite from the PH collective?
I had just this discussion with some colleagues at work up here a few weeks back. The general consensus is that many people cannot bring themselves to vote for the Tories due to how they feel they were treated by Thatcher in the '80s. As a result of the UK pretty much being a two horse race they vote for the other 'horse', regardless of how much the other horse resembles a donkey.I'd say that it's more of a sign of how much the general population dislikes the Conservatives, than their Socialist leanings. It's pretty bloody stupid really. Whether Thatcher was right or wrong in the 80s it really has no bearing whatsoever on what the Tory party would do today or tomorrow.
So, in summary, us Scots hold a grudge and will quite happily cut off our nose to spite our face.
jbi said:
I will say this... Scotland would not survive on it's own as a single state. in the recent banking crisis they would have had no chance in bailing out the RBS and would have ended up like iceland.
Scots however are fiercly patriotic and see themselves as "scottish" more than "british"...
They see the Conservatives as an "English" party with no real ties or interest in Scotland and so by default labor is the closest they can get to a party which is neither pro union, but won't encourage independence either.
This, I find my self getting incredibly annoyed when I speak with nationalists who have the romantic idea of independence stuck in their head and refuse to believe we would be chums with the IMF had Westminster not bailed RBS out.Scots however are fiercly patriotic and see themselves as "scottish" more than "british"...
They see the Conservatives as an "English" party with no real ties or interest in Scotland and so by default labor is the closest they can get to a party which is neither pro union, but won't encourage independence either.
The amount of a
holes currently on Facebook who keep saying that because there is only one Tory MP in Scotland, they don't have a mandate to govern 'us'...conveniently forgetting England has had to suffer under Labour thanks to the Scottish vote.Most of the population of Scotland is concentrated in large towns and cities. Urban populations tend to vote Labour, not Conservative, wherever they are in the UK. If you look outside the big Scottish towns and cities you see more support for the Lib Dems and Conservatives.
This is all in my opinion of course. I have no references, citations, facts or figures to back this up.
This is all in my opinion of course. I have no references, citations, facts or figures to back this up.
toppstuff said:
Why is Scotland apparently made up, largely, of Socialists?
It's not but the one thing they hate more than anything is so called "Posh southern English people" who they see as the mainstay of the Conservative party.They also see Labour and SNP as the best way to get their scotch hands on English money . . . the Conservatives would not be so generous.
Rusty Arches said:
Most leftists enjoy being looked after by the Government, being that Scotland is paid for by us in England, it's not surprising they're mainly left.
If they weren't, it'd mean they might have to do some hard work.
Seems the people of Leeds enjoy being looked after by the Government too. Four of out of five safe Labour constituencies, and one Lib Dem.If they weren't, it'd mean they might have to do some hard work.
Busa_Rush said:
toppstuff said:
Why is Scotland apparently made up, largely, of Socialists?
It's not but the one thing they hate more than anything is so called "Posh southern English people" who they see as the mainstay of the Conservative party.They also see Labour and SNP as the best way to get their scotch hands on English money . . . the Conservatives would not be so generous.
tuglet said:
Rusty Arches said:
Most leftists enjoy being looked after by the Government, being that Scotland is paid for by us in England, it's not surprising they're mainly left.
If they weren't, it'd mean they might have to do some hard work.
Seems the people of Leeds enjoy being looked after by the Government too. Four of out of five safe Labour constituencies, and one Lib Dem.If they weren't, it'd mean they might have to do some hard work.
Dare2Fail said:
The general consensus is that many people cannot bring themselves to vote for the Tories due to how they feel they were treated by Thatcher in the '80s.
Would you care to elaborate and educate me? I genuinely dont understand why the Scots detest Thatcher so much? I know they do, I just dont understand why. I didnt think there was much coal mining there? Was it shipbuilding? And if so, what happened?cheers...
If you look at the BBC electon results site, it's very clear that Labour support is very concentrated in a few areas:
Scotland
Wales
NE England (Tyne/Tees/Wear)
Manchester/Liverpool
Leeds
Birmingham
London
And all in urban areas. The NE of England has 2 Tory seats, and a pile of Labour. Not much different from Scotland.
Scotland used to have a lerge number of Tory seats and supporters, but hasn't had more than 1 Tory seat since 1997 (not sure about 1992-1997).
Thatcher was seen as very anti-Scottish by more than just the traditional Labour supporters, and 'trying out' Poll Tax in Scotland as an experiment really didn't go down too well. Also nice comments about reducing the heating allowance for the elderly to a lower temperature in Scotland 'because they're used to it'.
Mind you, outside the central belt the Tories came second in a lot of constituencies, and even close to winning. Still polled about 1/6 of the votes, but only took 1/60 of the seats.
Scotland
Wales
NE England (Tyne/Tees/Wear)
Manchester/Liverpool
Leeds
Birmingham
London
And all in urban areas. The NE of England has 2 Tory seats, and a pile of Labour. Not much different from Scotland.
Scotland used to have a lerge number of Tory seats and supporters, but hasn't had more than 1 Tory seat since 1997 (not sure about 1992-1997).
Thatcher was seen as very anti-Scottish by more than just the traditional Labour supporters, and 'trying out' Poll Tax in Scotland as an experiment really didn't go down too well. Also nice comments about reducing the heating allowance for the elderly to a lower temperature in Scotland 'because they're used to it'.
Mind you, outside the central belt the Tories came second in a lot of constituencies, and even close to winning. Still polled about 1/6 of the votes, but only took 1/60 of the seats.
surrey7er said:
Dare2Fail said:
The general consensus is that many people cannot bring themselves to vote for the Tories due to how they feel they were treated by Thatcher in the '80s.
Would you care to elaborate and educate me? I genuinely dont understand why the Scots detest Thatcher so much? I know they do, I just dont understand why. I didnt think there was much coal mining there? Was it shipbuilding? And if so, what happened?cheers...
As one of 'them', I think you'll find the answer rather more complex that it first seems; and like many things, with history playing a large part.
First off, it's certainly true that Scotland returns MPs of the left pretty much exclusively. But these are non-representative of the votes cast. If I shamelessly nick this of another thread
Also consider the SNP. In terms of policies they're a left-wing party; but they also have the 'independence' agenda. I don't have figures, but I know for a fact that many folks who might typically be conservative (and forgetting the 'unionist' bit) are swayed by the SNP's independence stance...in the same way no doubt some typical English conservative voters have supported the BNP/UKIP based on their headline agendas without considering the actual policies. If the SNP dropped the call for independence and just ran with the same local policies, then we'd see voters return to the conservatives/labour/libs. Other than independence, they don't really bring anything new to the party. But I know a number of folks voting SNP with their eye on independence, with the view that an independent country would then have its own local 'party of the right' to then receive their support. So, if you're a capitalist/conservative voter [OK, like myself], but you think Scotland could genuinely make it on its own, then do you vote SNP to bring that about? Tough one. But on the figures above I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that if there was no independence agenda, then maybe 4 or 5 of the hypothetical SNP seats might also go to the conservatives.
But that still leaves the question why there is still more left- rather than right-wing voters. And here we do have to look at history and demographics...and to an extent Westminster governments over the years have been 'to blame'. Remember Scotland wasn't always a left-wing stronghold - Winston Churchill was the MP for Dundee.
At one time Scotland was a microcosm of any other large country, with a range of social strata (from its own Royal Family down...which we gave you;)), government, banks, manufacturing, heavy industry, mining, social services etc. But what we've seen now is that virtually all of the traditional skilled/semi-skilled/manual jobs have gone. And right or wrong, it always seemed that the Scottish yards/mines/plants/steelworks were the first to close. Ravenscraig steel was closed before the English (and Welsh) plants I recall. And I do remember a few years ago the nuclear submarine refit jobs were lost by Rosyth (just up the coast from me) to Devonport. This was against the MODs advice - Rosyth had all the equipment and existing submarine pens; Devonport didn't...but there was behind-the-scenes politics with elections afoot. This one in particular was a blatant 'move' of Scottish jobs to England for [local English] political gain. So over a number of years this loss of traditional jobs and the apparent favouring of the corresponding English jobs (true or not, it looks like it from here) has led to deep disenfranchisement. And all these workers/ex-workers are now labour or SNP voters.
What's compounded the problem as I see it, is rather than put in investment to give other locally owned sustainable worthwhile jobs/careers, the solution has been to create a welfare infrastructure. So now we have a large group of folks whose parents/culture was left-wing and bitter, and who also now have their lifestyle so completely supported by the welfare state that they'd be turkeys voting for Christmas to vote anything other than labour/SNP. This isn't unique to Scotland; you can see the same thing in ex mining/steel/shipbuilding areas in the North of England too. Generations of unemployed, spawned from once-proud skilled/semi-skilled manual workers in traditional industries. This isn't the case in the home counties and many other parts where there wasn't a couple of generations of workers laid-off.
I also feel this shift 'to the left' has been exacerbated with an exodus of white collar roles. Many traditionally Scottish owned businesses are now owned/run from outside the country. I know a great many people who in order to carry on up the career ladder have had to move 'down south' [and for you Southern folks, I'm sure you hear a great many Scots accents in the workplace]. And although this is a bit of a broad-brush categorisation, I'm speculating that many of the skilled folks leaving Scotland for pastures new would have right-leaning politics. So we're losing potential conservative voters, while growing our base of non-mobile left-wing voters.
Now we come on to Nationalism. And this is something that the English really could learn something about. Yes, most Scots are fiercely proud of being Scottish (far more so than the average Englishman is proud to be English), but this - like American pride - is in the main limited to a pride in one's own country and not based on being 'better than' anyone else. Sure there are many exceptions, we've all seen loud drunken Scots with cans of lager in their hands, but I've been proud to be a Scot and have a drink with Americans in America, who were equally proud to be American...and French in France proud to be French...and Danes in Denmark proud to be Danish, Canadians, Mexicans, Dutch etc. But too many times I've had drinks with Englishmen where it's ended up as a c0ck-waving contest/1966/politics/West Lothian/'what we did for you' session. Chill out guys - have pride in your country - and if you don't like it, do something about it. Enough folks in Scotland did enough to get a devolved parliament. The folks in England lobbied for??? We didn't ask Scottish MPs to be able to vote on English matters - many don't anyway - but what have you folks done to address it? Have you even lobbied your MP?
Do I think Scotland could make it as an independent nation? Should it even? In truth I'm not sure. It was independent once so at one point in time it was clearly possible! But my own opinion is that time is running out. I'd say maybe 30 years ago with still a decent industrial base and oil; yup, no brainer. 15 years ago before bLiar - looking bleaker but still possible maybe. Now...I'm not so confident - too little 'manufacturing' (including the sunrise technologies), too few Scottish-owned businesses, too many long-term unemployed. And this will only get worse in time I feel.
But, I travel a fair bit on business and visit Denmark quite often and I never fail to be impressed (apart from their car tax!) with the country and its people, and on the flight home I'm always left pondering 'if Denmark can do it, why not Scotland?'. And of course there are many other small countries that also do quite well for themselves (but let's not talk about Iceland!).
What's my dream scenario? Well, it goes like this.... Scotland gets independence, and the government lobbies the US to have Scottish citizens considered like ROI for Green Cards. I bu&&er-off to the US for a few years in the sun, buy a Corvette and a condo in Aspen and let things settle down and observe form a distance. If a left-/right- wing party state forms and the independent Scotland becomes entrepreneurial and successful, then I'll buy a holiday-home and come back for the summers Otherwise I'll retire to Canada and wear my kilt on St Andrew's night and Burns' night, drink whisky and imagine how things might have been.
First off, it's certainly true that Scotland returns MPs of the left pretty much exclusively. But these are non-representative of the votes cast. If I shamelessly nick this of another thread
alangla said:
If you look at the results in Scotland in isolation, you get this -
So clearly there are still more than twice as many labour voters as conservatives, but with PR or a more realistic drawing of the boundaries there simply should not be the current lack of representation for those with right-leaning views. But in many cases typical (or historic) conservative areas have been lumped in with labour strongholds. In my case I live in what 'should' be a right-voting area, but we're in the same ward as a number of old mining towns; Winky is my MP...and there's not a d@mned thing anyone can do
Party %age actual proportional (rounded)
Labour 42 41 25
Lib Dem 18.9 11 11
SNP 19.9 6 12
Tory 16.7 1 10
Also consider the SNP. In terms of policies they're a left-wing party; but they also have the 'independence' agenda. I don't have figures, but I know for a fact that many folks who might typically be conservative (and forgetting the 'unionist' bit) are swayed by the SNP's independence stance...in the same way no doubt some typical English conservative voters have supported the BNP/UKIP based on their headline agendas without considering the actual policies. If the SNP dropped the call for independence and just ran with the same local policies, then we'd see voters return to the conservatives/labour/libs. Other than independence, they don't really bring anything new to the party. But I know a number of folks voting SNP with their eye on independence, with the view that an independent country would then have its own local 'party of the right' to then receive their support. So, if you're a capitalist/conservative voter [OK, like myself], but you think Scotland could genuinely make it on its own, then do you vote SNP to bring that about? Tough one. But on the figures above I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that if there was no independence agenda, then maybe 4 or 5 of the hypothetical SNP seats might also go to the conservatives.
But that still leaves the question why there is still more left- rather than right-wing voters. And here we do have to look at history and demographics...and to an extent Westminster governments over the years have been 'to blame'. Remember Scotland wasn't always a left-wing stronghold - Winston Churchill was the MP for Dundee.
At one time Scotland was a microcosm of any other large country, with a range of social strata (from its own Royal Family down...which we gave you;)), government, banks, manufacturing, heavy industry, mining, social services etc. But what we've seen now is that virtually all of the traditional skilled/semi-skilled/manual jobs have gone. And right or wrong, it always seemed that the Scottish yards/mines/plants/steelworks were the first to close. Ravenscraig steel was closed before the English (and Welsh) plants I recall. And I do remember a few years ago the nuclear submarine refit jobs were lost by Rosyth (just up the coast from me) to Devonport. This was against the MODs advice - Rosyth had all the equipment and existing submarine pens; Devonport didn't...but there was behind-the-scenes politics with elections afoot. This one in particular was a blatant 'move' of Scottish jobs to England for [local English] political gain. So over a number of years this loss of traditional jobs and the apparent favouring of the corresponding English jobs (true or not, it looks like it from here) has led to deep disenfranchisement. And all these workers/ex-workers are now labour or SNP voters.
What's compounded the problem as I see it, is rather than put in investment to give other locally owned sustainable worthwhile jobs/careers, the solution has been to create a welfare infrastructure. So now we have a large group of folks whose parents/culture was left-wing and bitter, and who also now have their lifestyle so completely supported by the welfare state that they'd be turkeys voting for Christmas to vote anything other than labour/SNP. This isn't unique to Scotland; you can see the same thing in ex mining/steel/shipbuilding areas in the North of England too. Generations of unemployed, spawned from once-proud skilled/semi-skilled manual workers in traditional industries. This isn't the case in the home counties and many other parts where there wasn't a couple of generations of workers laid-off.
I also feel this shift 'to the left' has been exacerbated with an exodus of white collar roles. Many traditionally Scottish owned businesses are now owned/run from outside the country. I know a great many people who in order to carry on up the career ladder have had to move 'down south' [and for you Southern folks, I'm sure you hear a great many Scots accents in the workplace]. And although this is a bit of a broad-brush categorisation, I'm speculating that many of the skilled folks leaving Scotland for pastures new would have right-leaning politics. So we're losing potential conservative voters, while growing our base of non-mobile left-wing voters.
Now we come on to Nationalism. And this is something that the English really could learn something about. Yes, most Scots are fiercely proud of being Scottish (far more so than the average Englishman is proud to be English), but this - like American pride - is in the main limited to a pride in one's own country and not based on being 'better than' anyone else. Sure there are many exceptions, we've all seen loud drunken Scots with cans of lager in their hands, but I've been proud to be a Scot and have a drink with Americans in America, who were equally proud to be American...and French in France proud to be French...and Danes in Denmark proud to be Danish, Canadians, Mexicans, Dutch etc. But too many times I've had drinks with Englishmen where it's ended up as a c0ck-waving contest/1966/politics/West Lothian/'what we did for you' session. Chill out guys - have pride in your country - and if you don't like it, do something about it. Enough folks in Scotland did enough to get a devolved parliament. The folks in England lobbied for??? We didn't ask Scottish MPs to be able to vote on English matters - many don't anyway - but what have you folks done to address it? Have you even lobbied your MP?
Do I think Scotland could make it as an independent nation? Should it even? In truth I'm not sure. It was independent once so at one point in time it was clearly possible! But my own opinion is that time is running out. I'd say maybe 30 years ago with still a decent industrial base and oil; yup, no brainer. 15 years ago before bLiar - looking bleaker but still possible maybe. Now...I'm not so confident - too little 'manufacturing' (including the sunrise technologies), too few Scottish-owned businesses, too many long-term unemployed. And this will only get worse in time I feel.
But, I travel a fair bit on business and visit Denmark quite often and I never fail to be impressed (apart from their car tax!) with the country and its people, and on the flight home I'm always left pondering 'if Denmark can do it, why not Scotland?'. And of course there are many other small countries that also do quite well for themselves (but let's not talk about Iceland!).
What's my dream scenario? Well, it goes like this.... Scotland gets independence, and the government lobbies the US to have Scottish citizens considered like ROI for Green Cards. I bu&&er-off to the US for a few years in the sun, buy a Corvette and a condo in Aspen and let things settle down and observe form a distance. If a left-/right- wing party state forms and the independent Scotland becomes entrepreneurial and successful, then I'll buy a holiday-home and come back for the summers
Otherwise I'll retire to Canada and wear my kilt on St Andrew's night and Burns' night, drink whisky and imagine how things might have been.surrey7er said:
Dare2Fail said:
The general consensus is that many people cannot bring themselves to vote for the Tories due to how they feel they were treated by Thatcher in the '80s.
Would you care to elaborate and educate me? I genuinely dont understand why the Scots detest Thatcher so much? I know they do, I just dont understand why. I didnt think there was much coal mining there? Was it shipbuilding? And if so, what happened?cheers...
In addition you also had the train wreck that was the poll tax. There is still a lot of anger that it was trialed in Scotland as the general consensus is that Thatcher took the view that she had nothing to lose by f
king around with stuff North of the border. Again, looking at things now I think I would be in favour of a poll tax instead of council tax, but what people remember, or are told, is that the Conservatives will screw Scotland by using us a guinea pig for new ideas that may not be popular elsewhere.I am of the opinion that you can draw comparisons to the problems that exist/ed in Northern Ireland. A lot of it stems from bigotted opinions being indoctronited into younger generations by the adults. From discussions with friends and colleagues a similar thing has happened here for the Conservatives. I think it will be pretty tough for the Conservatives to get over the stigma that is attached to them in the near future.
jbi said:
Scots however are fiercly patriotic and see themselves as "scottish" more than "british"...
There is some big over-compensation going on there.I'd define Scottish nationalism as more an anti-ideology really...anti-English.
Anyway nationalism is irrelevant in this globalised world of international capitalism...no wonder most nationalism movements espose more state control (socialism).
tvrolet said:
As one of 'them', I think you'll find the answer rather more complex that it first seems; and like many things, with history playing a large part.
First off, it's certainly true that Scotland returns MPs of the left pretty much exclusively. But these are non-representative of the votes cast. If I shamelessly nick this of another thread
Also consider the SNP. In terms of policies they're a left-wing party; but they also have the 'independence' agenda. I don't have figures, but I know for a fact that many folks who might typically be conservative (and forgetting the 'unionist' bit) are swayed by the SNP's independence stance...in the same way no doubt some typical English conservative voters have supported the BNP/UKIP based on their headline agendas without considering the actual policies. If the SNP dropped the call for independence and just ran with the same local policies, then we'd see voters return to the conservatives/labour/libs. Other than independence, they don't really bring anything new to the party. But I know a number of folks voting SNP with their eye on independence, with the view that an independent country would then have its own local 'party of the right' to then receive their support. So, if you're a capitalist/conservative voter [OK, like myself], but you think Scotland could genuinely make it on its own, then do you vote SNP to bring that about? Tough one. But on the figures above I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that if there was no independence agenda, then maybe 4 or 5 of the hypothetical SNP seats might also go to the conservatives.
But that still leaves the question why there is still more left- rather than right-wing voters. And here we do have to look at history and demographics...and to an extent Westminster governments over the years have been 'to blame'. Remember Scotland wasn't always a left-wing stronghold - Winston Churchill was the MP for Dundee.
At one time Scotland was a microcosm of any other large country, with a range of social strata (from its own Royal Family down...which we gave you;)), government, banks, manufacturing, heavy industry, mining, social services etc. But what we've seen now is that virtually all of the traditional skilled/semi-skilled/manual jobs have gone. And right or wrong, it always seemed that the Scottish yards/mines/plants/steelworks were the first to close. Ravenscraig steel was closed before the English (and Welsh) plants I recall. And I do remember a few years ago the nuclear submarine refit jobs were lost by Rosyth (just up the coast from me) to Devonport. This was against the MODs advice - Rosyth had all the equipment and existing submarine pens; Devonport didn't...but there was behind-the-scenes politics with elections afoot. This one in particular was a blatant 'move' of Scottish jobs to England for [local English] political gain. So over a number of years this loss of traditional jobs and the apparent favouring of the corresponding English jobs (true or not, it looks like it from here) has led to deep disenfranchisement. And all these workers/ex-workers are now labour or SNP voters.
What's compounded the problem as I see it, is rather than put in investment to give other locally owned sustainable worthwhile jobs/careers, the solution has been to create a welfare infrastructure. So now we have a large group of folks whose parents/culture was left-wing and bitter, and who also now have their lifestyle so completely supported by the welfare state that they'd be turkeys voting for Christmas to vote anything other than labour/SNP. This isn't unique to Scotland; you can see the same thing in ex mining/steel/shipbuilding areas in the North of England too. Generations of unemployed, spawned from once-proud skilled/semi-skilled manual workers in traditional industries. This isn't the case in the home counties and many other parts where there wasn't a couple of generations of workers laid-off.
I also feel this shift 'to the left' has been exacerbated with an exodus of white collar roles. Many traditionally Scottish owned businesses are now owned/run from outside the country. I know a great many people who in order to carry on up the career ladder have had to move 'down south' [and for you Southern folks, I'm sure you hear a great many Scots accents in the workplace]. And although this is a bit of a broad-brush categorisation, I'm speculating that many of the skilled folks leaving Scotland for pastures new would have right-leaning politics. So we're losing potential conservative voters, while growing our base of non-mobile left-wing voters.
Now we come on to Nationalism. And this is something that the English really could learn something about. Yes, most Scots are fiercely proud of being Scottish (far more so than the average Englishman is proud to be English), but this - like American pride - is in the main limited to a pride in one's own country and not based on being 'better than' anyone else. Sure there are many exceptions, we've all seen loud drunken Scots with cans of lager in their hands, but I've been proud to be a Scot and have a drink with Americans in America, who were equally proud to be American...and French in France proud to be French...and Danes in Denmark proud to be Danish, Canadians, Mexicans, Dutch etc. But too many times I've had drinks with Englishmen where it's ended up as a c0ck-waving contest/1966/politics/West Lothian/'what we did for you' session. Chill out guys - have pride in your country - and if you don't like it, do something about it. Enough folks in Scotland did enough to get a devolved parliament. The folks in England lobbied for??? We didn't ask Scottish MPs to be able to vote on English matters - many don't anyway - but what have you folks done to address it? Have you even lobbied your MP?
Do I think Scotland could make it as an independent nation? Should it even? In truth I'm not sure. It was independent once so at one point in time it was clearly possible! But my own opinion is that time is running out. I'd say maybe 30 years ago with still a decent industrial base and oil; yup, no brainer. 15 years ago before bLiar - looking bleaker but still possible maybe. Now...I'm not so confident - too little 'manufacturing' (including the sunrise technologies), too few Scottish-owned businesses, too many long-term unemployed. And this will only get worse in time I feel.
But, I travel a fair bit on business and visit Denmark quite often and I never fail to be impressed (apart from their car tax!) with the country and its people, and on the flight home I'm always left pondering 'if Denmark can do it, why not Scotland?'. And of course there are many other small countries that also do quite well for themselves (but let's not talk about Iceland!).
What's my dream scenario? Well, it goes like this.... Scotland gets independence, and the government lobbies the US to have Scottish citizens considered like ROI for Green Cards. I bu&&er-off to the US for a few years in the sun, buy a Corvette and a condo in Aspen and let things settle down and observe form a distance. If a left-/right- wing party state forms and the independent Scotland becomes entrepreneurial and successful, then I'll buy a holiday-home and come back for the summers Otherwise I'll retire to Canada and wear my kilt on St Andrew's night and Burns' night, drink whisky and imagine how things might have been.
Interesting and enlightening post. Thanks.First off, it's certainly true that Scotland returns MPs of the left pretty much exclusively. But these are non-representative of the votes cast. If I shamelessly nick this of another thread
alangla said:
If you look at the results in Scotland in isolation, you get this -
So clearly there are still more than twice as many labour voters as conservatives, but with PR or a more realistic drawing of the boundaries there simply should not be the current lack of representation for those with right-leaning views. But in many cases typical (or historic) conservative areas have been lumped in with labour strongholds. In my case I live in what 'should' be a right-voting area, but we're in the same ward as a number of old mining towns; Winky is my MP...and there's not a d@mned thing anyone can do
Party %age actual proportional (rounded)
Labour 42 41 25
Lib Dem 18.9 11 11
SNP 19.9 6 12
Tory 16.7 1 10
Also consider the SNP. In terms of policies they're a left-wing party; but they also have the 'independence' agenda. I don't have figures, but I know for a fact that many folks who might typically be conservative (and forgetting the 'unionist' bit) are swayed by the SNP's independence stance...in the same way no doubt some typical English conservative voters have supported the BNP/UKIP based on their headline agendas without considering the actual policies. If the SNP dropped the call for independence and just ran with the same local policies, then we'd see voters return to the conservatives/labour/libs. Other than independence, they don't really bring anything new to the party. But I know a number of folks voting SNP with their eye on independence, with the view that an independent country would then have its own local 'party of the right' to then receive their support. So, if you're a capitalist/conservative voter [OK, like myself], but you think Scotland could genuinely make it on its own, then do you vote SNP to bring that about? Tough one. But on the figures above I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that if there was no independence agenda, then maybe 4 or 5 of the hypothetical SNP seats might also go to the conservatives.
But that still leaves the question why there is still more left- rather than right-wing voters. And here we do have to look at history and demographics...and to an extent Westminster governments over the years have been 'to blame'. Remember Scotland wasn't always a left-wing stronghold - Winston Churchill was the MP for Dundee.
At one time Scotland was a microcosm of any other large country, with a range of social strata (from its own Royal Family down...which we gave you;)), government, banks, manufacturing, heavy industry, mining, social services etc. But what we've seen now is that virtually all of the traditional skilled/semi-skilled/manual jobs have gone. And right or wrong, it always seemed that the Scottish yards/mines/plants/steelworks were the first to close. Ravenscraig steel was closed before the English (and Welsh) plants I recall. And I do remember a few years ago the nuclear submarine refit jobs were lost by Rosyth (just up the coast from me) to Devonport. This was against the MODs advice - Rosyth had all the equipment and existing submarine pens; Devonport didn't...but there was behind-the-scenes politics with elections afoot. This one in particular was a blatant 'move' of Scottish jobs to England for [local English] political gain. So over a number of years this loss of traditional jobs and the apparent favouring of the corresponding English jobs (true or not, it looks like it from here) has led to deep disenfranchisement. And all these workers/ex-workers are now labour or SNP voters.
What's compounded the problem as I see it, is rather than put in investment to give other locally owned sustainable worthwhile jobs/careers, the solution has been to create a welfare infrastructure. So now we have a large group of folks whose parents/culture was left-wing and bitter, and who also now have their lifestyle so completely supported by the welfare state that they'd be turkeys voting for Christmas to vote anything other than labour/SNP. This isn't unique to Scotland; you can see the same thing in ex mining/steel/shipbuilding areas in the North of England too. Generations of unemployed, spawned from once-proud skilled/semi-skilled manual workers in traditional industries. This isn't the case in the home counties and many other parts where there wasn't a couple of generations of workers laid-off.
I also feel this shift 'to the left' has been exacerbated with an exodus of white collar roles. Many traditionally Scottish owned businesses are now owned/run from outside the country. I know a great many people who in order to carry on up the career ladder have had to move 'down south' [and for you Southern folks, I'm sure you hear a great many Scots accents in the workplace]. And although this is a bit of a broad-brush categorisation, I'm speculating that many of the skilled folks leaving Scotland for pastures new would have right-leaning politics. So we're losing potential conservative voters, while growing our base of non-mobile left-wing voters.
Now we come on to Nationalism. And this is something that the English really could learn something about. Yes, most Scots are fiercely proud of being Scottish (far more so than the average Englishman is proud to be English), but this - like American pride - is in the main limited to a pride in one's own country and not based on being 'better than' anyone else. Sure there are many exceptions, we've all seen loud drunken Scots with cans of lager in their hands, but I've been proud to be a Scot and have a drink with Americans in America, who were equally proud to be American...and French in France proud to be French...and Danes in Denmark proud to be Danish, Canadians, Mexicans, Dutch etc. But too many times I've had drinks with Englishmen where it's ended up as a c0ck-waving contest/1966/politics/West Lothian/'what we did for you' session. Chill out guys - have pride in your country - and if you don't like it, do something about it. Enough folks in Scotland did enough to get a devolved parliament. The folks in England lobbied for??? We didn't ask Scottish MPs to be able to vote on English matters - many don't anyway - but what have you folks done to address it? Have you even lobbied your MP?
Do I think Scotland could make it as an independent nation? Should it even? In truth I'm not sure. It was independent once so at one point in time it was clearly possible! But my own opinion is that time is running out. I'd say maybe 30 years ago with still a decent industrial base and oil; yup, no brainer. 15 years ago before bLiar - looking bleaker but still possible maybe. Now...I'm not so confident - too little 'manufacturing' (including the sunrise technologies), too few Scottish-owned businesses, too many long-term unemployed. And this will only get worse in time I feel.
But, I travel a fair bit on business and visit Denmark quite often and I never fail to be impressed (apart from their car tax!) with the country and its people, and on the flight home I'm always left pondering 'if Denmark can do it, why not Scotland?'. And of course there are many other small countries that also do quite well for themselves (but let's not talk about Iceland!).
What's my dream scenario? Well, it goes like this.... Scotland gets independence, and the government lobbies the US to have Scottish citizens considered like ROI for Green Cards. I bu&&er-off to the US for a few years in the sun, buy a Corvette and a condo in Aspen and let things settle down and observe form a distance. If a left-/right- wing party state forms and the independent Scotland becomes entrepreneurial and successful, then I'll buy a holiday-home and come back for the summers
Otherwise I'll retire to Canada and wear my kilt on St Andrew's night and Burns' night, drink whisky and imagine how things might have been.TS
I dont think they are Socilaists. I just think they are looking out for their own interests and dont give a stuff about the overall good of the Nation. I suspect there is a far higher proportion of them that are living off the State and know that the Labour Party will always look after them better, particulalry as without Scottish votes, they'd not be in power. And our current "PM" is Scottish, and almost racist with his favouritism for his fellow Scots, so they'll always be OK with him at the Helm, (see bail out of the two Scottish banks that hardly anyone wanted).
tvrolet said:
As one of 'them', I think you'll find the answer rather more complex that it first seems; and like many things, with history playing a large part.
First off, it's certainly true that Scotland returns MPs of the left pretty much exclusively. But these are non-representative of the votes cast. If I shamelessly nick this of another thread
Also consider the SNP. In terms of policies they're a left-wing party; but they also have the 'independence' agenda. I don't have figures, but I know for a fact that many folks who might typically be conservative (and forgetting the 'unionist' bit) are swayed by the SNP's independence stance...in the same way no doubt some typical English conservative voters have supported the BNP/UKIP based on their headline agendas without considering the actual policies. If the SNP dropped the call for independence and just ran with the same local policies, then we'd see voters return to the conservatives/labour/libs. Other than independence, they don't really bring anything new to the party. But I know a number of folks voting SNP with their eye on independence, with the view that an independent country would then have its own local 'party of the right' to then receive their support. So, if you're a capitalist/conservative voter [OK, like myself], but you think Scotland could genuinely make it on its own, then do you vote SNP to bring that about? Tough one. But on the figures above I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that if there was no independence agenda, then maybe 4 or 5 of the hypothetical SNP seats might also go to the conservatives.
But that still leaves the question why there is still more left- rather than right-wing voters. And here we do have to look at history and demographics...and to an extent Westminster governments over the years have been 'to blame'. Remember Scotland wasn't always a left-wing stronghold - Winston Churchill was the MP for Dundee.
At one time Scotland was a microcosm of any other large country, with a range of social strata (from its own Royal Family down...which we gave you;)), government, banks, manufacturing, heavy industry, mining, social services etc. But what we've seen now is that virtually all of the traditional skilled/semi-skilled/manual jobs have gone. And right or wrong, it always seemed that the Scottish yards/mines/plants/steelworks were the first to close. Ravenscraig steel was closed before the English (and Welsh) plants I recall. And I do remember a few years ago the nuclear submarine refit jobs were lost by Rosyth (just up the coast from me) to Devonport. This was against the MODs advice - Rosyth had all the equipment and existing submarine pens; Devonport didn't...but there was behind-the-scenes politics with elections afoot. This one in particular was a blatant 'move' of Scottish jobs to England for [local English] political gain. So over a number of years this loss of traditional jobs and the apparent favouring of the corresponding English jobs (true or not, it looks like it from here) has led to deep disenfranchisement. And all these workers/ex-workers are now labour or SNP voters.
What's compounded the problem as I see it, is rather than put in investment to give other locally owned sustainable worthwhile jobs/careers, the solution has been to create a welfare infrastructure. So now we have a large group of folks whose parents/culture was left-wing and bitter, and who also now have their lifestyle so completely supported by the welfare state that they'd be turkeys voting for Christmas to vote anything other than labour/SNP. This isn't unique to Scotland; you can see the same thing in ex mining/steel/shipbuilding areas in the North of England too. Generations of unemployed, spawned from once-proud skilled/semi-skilled manual workers in traditional industries. This isn't the case in the home counties and many other parts where there wasn't a couple of generations of workers laid-off.
I also feel this shift 'to the left' has been exacerbated with an exodus of white collar roles. Many traditionally Scottish owned businesses are now owned/run from outside the country. I know a great many people who in order to carry on up the career ladder have had to move 'down south' [and for you Southern folks, I'm sure you hear a great many Scots accents in the workplace]. And although this is a bit of a broad-brush categorisation, I'm speculating that many of the skilled folks leaving Scotland for pastures new would have right-leaning politics. So we're losing potential conservative voters, while growing our base of non-mobile left-wing voters.
Now we come on to Nationalism. And this is something that the English really could learn something about. Yes, most Scots are fiercely proud of being Scottish (far more so than the average Englishman is proud to be English), but this - like American pride - is in the main limited to a pride in one's own country and not based on being 'better than' anyone else. Sure there are many exceptions, we've all seen loud drunken Scots with cans of lager in their hands, but I've been proud to be a Scot and have a drink with Americans in America, who were equally proud to be American...and French in France proud to be French...and Danes in Denmark proud to be Danish, Canadians, Mexicans, Dutch etc. But too many times I've had drinks with Englishmen where it's ended up as a c0ck-waving contest/1966/politics/West Lothian/'what we did for you' session. Chill out guys - have pride in your country - and if you don't like it, do something about it. Enough folks in Scotland did enough to get a devolved parliament. The folks in England lobbied for??? We didn't ask Scottish MPs to be able to vote on English matters - many don't anyway - but what have you folks done to address it? Have you even lobbied your MP?
Do I think Scotland could make it as an independent nation? Should it even? In truth I'm not sure. It was independent once so at one point in time it was clearly possible! But my own opinion is that time is running out. I'd say maybe 30 years ago with still a decent industrial base and oil; yup, no brainer. 15 years ago before bLiar - looking bleaker but still possible maybe. Now...I'm not so confident - too little 'manufacturing' (including the sunrise technologies), too few Scottish-owned businesses, too many long-term unemployed. And this will only get worse in time I feel.
But, I travel a fair bit on business and visit Denmark quite often and I never fail to be impressed (apart from their car tax!) with the country and its people, and on the flight home I'm always left pondering 'if Denmark can do it, why not Scotland?'. And of course there are many other small countries that also do quite well for themselves (but let's not talk about Iceland!).
What's my dream scenario? Well, it goes like this.... Scotland gets independence, and the government lobbies the US to have Scottish citizens considered like ROI for Green Cards. I bu&&er-off to the US for a few years in the sun, buy a Corvette and a condo in Aspen and let things settle down and observe form a distance. If a left-/right- wing party state forms and the independent Scotland becomes entrepreneurial and successful, then I'll buy a holiday-home and come back for the summers Otherwise I'll retire to Canada and wear my kilt on St Andrew's night and Burns' night, drink whisky and imagine how things might have been.
A very good and well thought out post, I agree with most of your analysis, including moving to the US/Canada.First off, it's certainly true that Scotland returns MPs of the left pretty much exclusively. But these are non-representative of the votes cast. If I shamelessly nick this of another thread
alangla said:
If you look at the results in Scotland in isolation, you get this -
So clearly there are still more than twice as many labour voters as conservatives, but with PR or a more realistic drawing of the boundaries there simply should not be the current lack of representation for those with right-leaning views. But in many cases typical (or historic) conservative areas have been lumped in with labour strongholds. In my case I live in what 'should' be a right-voting area, but we're in the same ward as a number of old mining towns; Winky is my MP...and there's not a d@mned thing anyone can do
Party %age actual proportional (rounded)
Labour 42 41 25
Lib Dem 18.9 11 11
SNP 19.9 6 12
Tory 16.7 1 10
Also consider the SNP. In terms of policies they're a left-wing party; but they also have the 'independence' agenda. I don't have figures, but I know for a fact that many folks who might typically be conservative (and forgetting the 'unionist' bit) are swayed by the SNP's independence stance...in the same way no doubt some typical English conservative voters have supported the BNP/UKIP based on their headline agendas without considering the actual policies. If the SNP dropped the call for independence and just ran with the same local policies, then we'd see voters return to the conservatives/labour/libs. Other than independence, they don't really bring anything new to the party. But I know a number of folks voting SNP with their eye on independence, with the view that an independent country would then have its own local 'party of the right' to then receive their support. So, if you're a capitalist/conservative voter [OK, like myself], but you think Scotland could genuinely make it on its own, then do you vote SNP to bring that about? Tough one. But on the figures above I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that if there was no independence agenda, then maybe 4 or 5 of the hypothetical SNP seats might also go to the conservatives.
But that still leaves the question why there is still more left- rather than right-wing voters. And here we do have to look at history and demographics...and to an extent Westminster governments over the years have been 'to blame'. Remember Scotland wasn't always a left-wing stronghold - Winston Churchill was the MP for Dundee.
At one time Scotland was a microcosm of any other large country, with a range of social strata (from its own Royal Family down...which we gave you;)), government, banks, manufacturing, heavy industry, mining, social services etc. But what we've seen now is that virtually all of the traditional skilled/semi-skilled/manual jobs have gone. And right or wrong, it always seemed that the Scottish yards/mines/plants/steelworks were the first to close. Ravenscraig steel was closed before the English (and Welsh) plants I recall. And I do remember a few years ago the nuclear submarine refit jobs were lost by Rosyth (just up the coast from me) to Devonport. This was against the MODs advice - Rosyth had all the equipment and existing submarine pens; Devonport didn't...but there was behind-the-scenes politics with elections afoot. This one in particular was a blatant 'move' of Scottish jobs to England for [local English] political gain. So over a number of years this loss of traditional jobs and the apparent favouring of the corresponding English jobs (true or not, it looks like it from here) has led to deep disenfranchisement. And all these workers/ex-workers are now labour or SNP voters.
What's compounded the problem as I see it, is rather than put in investment to give other locally owned sustainable worthwhile jobs/careers, the solution has been to create a welfare infrastructure. So now we have a large group of folks whose parents/culture was left-wing and bitter, and who also now have their lifestyle so completely supported by the welfare state that they'd be turkeys voting for Christmas to vote anything other than labour/SNP. This isn't unique to Scotland; you can see the same thing in ex mining/steel/shipbuilding areas in the North of England too. Generations of unemployed, spawned from once-proud skilled/semi-skilled manual workers in traditional industries. This isn't the case in the home counties and many other parts where there wasn't a couple of generations of workers laid-off.
I also feel this shift 'to the left' has been exacerbated with an exodus of white collar roles. Many traditionally Scottish owned businesses are now owned/run from outside the country. I know a great many people who in order to carry on up the career ladder have had to move 'down south' [and for you Southern folks, I'm sure you hear a great many Scots accents in the workplace]. And although this is a bit of a broad-brush categorisation, I'm speculating that many of the skilled folks leaving Scotland for pastures new would have right-leaning politics. So we're losing potential conservative voters, while growing our base of non-mobile left-wing voters.
Now we come on to Nationalism. And this is something that the English really could learn something about. Yes, most Scots are fiercely proud of being Scottish (far more so than the average Englishman is proud to be English), but this - like American pride - is in the main limited to a pride in one's own country and not based on being 'better than' anyone else. Sure there are many exceptions, we've all seen loud drunken Scots with cans of lager in their hands, but I've been proud to be a Scot and have a drink with Americans in America, who were equally proud to be American...and French in France proud to be French...and Danes in Denmark proud to be Danish, Canadians, Mexicans, Dutch etc. But too many times I've had drinks with Englishmen where it's ended up as a c0ck-waving contest/1966/politics/West Lothian/'what we did for you' session. Chill out guys - have pride in your country - and if you don't like it, do something about it. Enough folks in Scotland did enough to get a devolved parliament. The folks in England lobbied for??? We didn't ask Scottish MPs to be able to vote on English matters - many don't anyway - but what have you folks done to address it? Have you even lobbied your MP?
Do I think Scotland could make it as an independent nation? Should it even? In truth I'm not sure. It was independent once so at one point in time it was clearly possible! But my own opinion is that time is running out. I'd say maybe 30 years ago with still a decent industrial base and oil; yup, no brainer. 15 years ago before bLiar - looking bleaker but still possible maybe. Now...I'm not so confident - too little 'manufacturing' (including the sunrise technologies), too few Scottish-owned businesses, too many long-term unemployed. And this will only get worse in time I feel.
But, I travel a fair bit on business and visit Denmark quite often and I never fail to be impressed (apart from their car tax!) with the country and its people, and on the flight home I'm always left pondering 'if Denmark can do it, why not Scotland?'. And of course there are many other small countries that also do quite well for themselves (but let's not talk about Iceland!).
What's my dream scenario? Well, it goes like this.... Scotland gets independence, and the government lobbies the US to have Scottish citizens considered like ROI for Green Cards. I bu&&er-off to the US for a few years in the sun, buy a Corvette and a condo in Aspen and let things settle down and observe form a distance. If a left-/right- wing party state forms and the independent Scotland becomes entrepreneurial and successful, then I'll buy a holiday-home and come back for the summers
Otherwise I'll retire to Canada and wear my kilt on St Andrew's night and Burns' night, drink whisky and imagine how things might have been.I would love to see a successful, enterprising, non socialist Scotland that is a valued part of the UK but the results of this election, particularly the total disparity with results in England has left me very depressed about the future of this country.
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