britain leaves the EU tomorrow
Discussion
It rather depends on whom you ask. If you look to UKIP and their ilk, you will get a message telling you about how ruinously expensive the EU is without making any allowances for benefits which result from our membership. As I see their arguments, it's rather like condemning a company because it has a cost of doing business without looking to see whether it makes a return on that cost or not.
They will then move on to tell you all about their wonderful plan to tell the EU to f
k off, followed by promptly setting up trading relationships with the EU nations which keep all the good bits and none of the bad bits. That the other nations will be sat at the feet of Farage begging for inclusion in our new club seems to be something of a foregone conclusion.
Probably because we're already in it, the posturing of the pro-EU lobby seems somewhat less sensationalist, but many of them can see absolutely no wrong with anything the EU does, and even with the happiest, most accepting innocence, it's hard to imagine an organisation of that size getting everything right!
All told, good luck finding non-partisan material.
They will then move on to tell you all about their wonderful plan to tell the EU to f
k off, followed by promptly setting up trading relationships with the EU nations which keep all the good bits and none of the bad bits. That the other nations will be sat at the feet of Farage begging for inclusion in our new club seems to be something of a foregone conclusion.Probably because we're already in it, the posturing of the pro-EU lobby seems somewhat less sensationalist, but many of them can see absolutely no wrong with anything the EU does, and even with the happiest, most accepting innocence, it's hard to imagine an organisation of that size getting everything right!
All told, good luck finding non-partisan material.
Well, there'd be a sh*tload of laws that we could get rid of for a start. About 75% of all our laws do not originate in our own Parliament. Shocking.
Seeing that blue and gold rag removed from our lives and replaced with OUR OWN flag would be a bonus. I mean, does it really have to be on driving licenses/ disabled badges/ number plates/ passports/ public buildings/ university signs/ public works etc etc.
We would undoubtedly join the EFTA (European Free Trade Area) and also possibly lobby NAFTA to join that trade block aswell.
Committing economic suicide by spending trillions on 'Combating Climate Change'
would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.
Eastern Europeans would have no more residency and work rights than any other foreigners and this could lead to a mass immigration by them across the channel to the EU (Land of Milk and Honey).
Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
Not that any of this is ever going to happen soon though, more the shame. We'll have to wait until Euroland collapses in on itself after Turkey, Albania, Moldova and Belarus join (or maybe the PIIGS can do this by themselves?)
Seeing that blue and gold rag removed from our lives and replaced with OUR OWN flag would be a bonus. I mean, does it really have to be on driving licenses/ disabled badges/ number plates/ passports/ public buildings/ university signs/ public works etc etc.
We would undoubtedly join the EFTA (European Free Trade Area) and also possibly lobby NAFTA to join that trade block aswell.
Committing economic suicide by spending trillions on 'Combating Climate Change'
would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.Eastern Europeans would have no more residency and work rights than any other foreigners and this could lead to a mass immigration by them across the channel to the EU (Land of Milk and Honey).
Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
Not that any of this is ever going to happen soon though, more the shame. We'll have to wait until Euroland collapses in on itself after Turkey, Albania, Moldova and Belarus join (or maybe the PIIGS can do this by themselves?)
[quote=V88Dicky]Well, there'd be a sh*tload of laws that we could get rid of for a start. About 75% of all our laws do not originate in our own Parliament. Shocking.
[quote]
All well and good but I imagine a significant amount of the legislation would have to be repalced with UK equivalents because they a) are necessary b) make sense.
For many things its worth having EU wide rules for consistency.
[quote]
All well and good but I imagine a significant amount of the legislation would have to be repalced with UK equivalents because they a) are necessary b) make sense.
For many things its worth having EU wide rules for consistency.
V88Dicky said:
Well, there'd be a sh*tload of laws that we could get rid of for a start. About 75% of all our laws do not originate in our own Parliament. Shocking.
How many of them or something like them would've been introduced by our own parliament anyway if they hadn't been introduced by the EU? I challenge you to give any answer other than "I have no idea", which rather undermines the assertion that 75% of them could've been done away with. Emotion overpowering reason.V88Dicky said:
Seeing that blue and gold rag removed from our lives and replaced with OUR OWN flag would be a bonus. I mean, does it really have to be on driving licenses/ disabled badges/ number plates/ passports/ public buildings/ university signs/ public works etc etc.
Again, that's emotion overpowering reason. I couldn't comment on university signs, but as far as I'm aware, public works only have an EU sign on them when they've been EU-funded, the EU logo on number plates is a matter of personal choice, I've never seen a public building flying an EU flag that wasn't also flying a Union Jack, and on things like driving licences and passports which can be used as official ID across much of the EU, surely it just makes sense to standardise, thus meaning anyone checking them in any country is more likely to recognise them and more likely to spot a fake?If I were to get emotional about it, then we seemingly lost the right to fly our own flag when the bloody Union Jack was forced upon us, so until public buildings in England fly the Cross of St George just like most public buildings in Wales and Scotland fly the dragon and the Saltire, getting pissed off about the EU flag seems frankly bizarre.
V88Dicky said:
We would undoubtedly join the EFTA (European Free Trade Area) and also possibly lobby NAFTA to join that trade block aswell.
It's good to know we can fall back on the mighty trade bloc that is Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland if NAFTA decide they don't want to sign up to the North American And One Small European Island Free Trade Agreement!Joining EFTA in and of itself if meaningless. Its only value would be in allowing us to exploit the free trade links between EFTA and the EU. Do you really think the likes of France & Germany would happily welcome back with open arms a country which had just told them to f
k off?V88Dicky said:
Committing economic suicide by spending trillions on 'Combating Climate Change' would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.
Again, emotion over reason. Regardless of whether or not you believe in climate change, how would you address the following points: would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.- From all the coverage I've seen, the UK government has put itself at the vanguard of combating climate change as a sovereign nation. What makes you think pulling out of the EU would in any way lessen this position?
- Regardless of whether or not manmade climate change exists, enough people believe in it to make it big business already, and an area with potentially vast growth ahead of it. Again, as I understand it, Britain is considered by most to be one of the countries best placed to profit economically from this. How would pulling out of the EU (and therefore any EU research funding) increase the likelihood of this potential being realised?
V88Dicky said:
Eastern Europeans would have no more residency and work rights than any other foreigners and this could lead to a mass immigration by them across the channel to the EU (Land of Milk and Honey).
Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
This point might be worthy of debate, but you've more or less already done that yourself. Personally I don't care where people come from so long as they're working and paying their way. There's plenty of natives I'd kick out ahead of Polish immigrants.Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
V88Dicky said:
Not that any of this is ever going to happen soon though, more the shame. We'll have to wait until Euroland collapses in on itself after Turkey, Albania, Moldova and Belarus join (or maybe the PIIGS can do this by themselves?)
I'm pretty sure people were saying that before Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc joined too, weren't they?
Kermit power said:
V88Dicky said:
Well, there'd be a sh*tload of laws that we could get rid of for a start. About 75% of all our laws do not originate in our own Parliament. Shocking.
How many of them or something like them would've been introduced by our own parliament anyway if they hadn't been introduced by the EU? I challenge you to give any answer other than "I have no idea", which rather undermines the assertion that 75% of them could've been done away with. Emotion overpowering reason.The EU does not introduce laws in this country. Our parliament does that. The EU isues Directives which are then left to individual governments to introduce in their countries.
Take a nice contentious one - the smoking ban. This originated in an EU Health & Safety Directive which sought to protect employees from the dangers of passive smoking. How come we have a blanket ban, whilst it is still possible to find smoking areas in, for example, Spain and Germany? Is it because they have ignored the Directive?
No - its because their governments have introduced legislation that is more sensible and level headed. Our blanket ban came from Whitehall and eleceted MPs - not the fecking EU.
Kermit power said:
V88Dicky said:
Well, there'd be a sh*tload of laws that we could get rid of for a start. About 75% of all our laws do not originate in our own Parliament. Shocking.
How many of them or something like them would've been introduced by our own parliament anyway if they hadn't been introduced by the EU? I challenge you to give any answer other than "I have no idea", which rather undermines the assertion that 75% of them could've been done away with. Emotion overpowering reason.Whether or not similar laws would have been introduced by our Parliament is by the by. It would have been OUR Parliament.
V88Dicky said:
Seeing that blue and gold rag removed from our lives and replaced with OUR OWN flag would be a bonus. I mean, does it really have to be on driving licenses/ disabled badges/ number plates/ passports/ public buildings/ university signs/ public works etc etc.
Again, that's emotion overpowering reason. I couldn't comment on university signs, but as far as I'm aware, public works only have an EU sign on them when they've been EU-funded, the EU logo on number plates is a matter of personal choice, I've never seen a public building flying an EU flag that wasn't also flying a Union Jack, and on things like driving licences and passports which can be used as official ID across much of the EU, surely it just makes sense to standardise, thus meaning anyone checking them in any country is more likely to recognise them and more likely to spot a fake?Which only means its us getting some of our money back anyway. Remember, we are net contributers to the EU.
But it was flying an EU flag, nevertheless. My point wasn't if it was flying a Union Flag also.
If I were to get emotional about it, then we seemingly lost the right to fly our own flag when the bloody Union Jack was forced upon us, so until public buildings in England fly the Cross of St George just like most public buildings in Wales and Scotland fly the dragon and the Saltire, getting pissed off about the EU flag seems frankly bizarre.
The Union, ie United Kingdom, since coming into being, became a potent economic force, creating the industrial revolution and changing the world. I don't know about you but I'm proud to be British and I can see that the UK is more than just a sum of its component parts.
V88Dicky said:
We would undoubtedly join the EFTA (European Free Trade Area) and also possibly lobby NAFTA to join that trade block aswell.
It's good to know we can fall back on the mighty trade bloc that is Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland if NAFTA decide they don't want to sign up to the North American And One Small European Island Free Trade Agreement!Joining EFTA in and of itself if meaningless. Its only value would be in allowing us to exploit the free trade links between EFTA and the EU. Do you really think the likes of France & Germany would happily welcome back with open arms a country which had just told them to f
k off?Why not? What else are they going to do? Anyway a trade agreement with NAFTA and an arrangement with the Commonwealth would more than suffice. I'm sure the previous Conservative Government made tentative steps to see if an arrangement with NAFTA could be agreed. North Atlantic Free Trade Area anyone?
V88Dicky said:
Committing economic suicide by spending trillions on 'Combating Climate Change' would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.
Again, emotion over reason. Regardless of whether or not you believe in climate change, how would you address the following points: would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.- From all the coverage I've seen, the UK government has put itself at the vanguard of combating climate change as a sovereign nation. What makes you think pulling out of the EU would in any way lessen this position?
- Regardless of whether or not manmade climate change exists, enough people believe in it to make it big business already, and an area with potentially vast growth ahead of it. Again, as I understand it, Britain is considered by most to be one of the countries best placed to profit economically from this. How would pulling out of the EU (and therefore any EU research funding) increase the likelihood of this potential being realised?
Spains suicidal commitment to windymills and solar power, using taxpayers subsidies (as usual) is coming home to roost right now, with 2.2 jobs lost for every 'job' created on the back of the global warming scam. California tried it in the early 80's, and when the subsidies dried up, the wind turbines turned into rusting hulks.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/inde...
V88Dicky said:
Eastern Europeans would have no more residency and work rights than any other foreigners and this could lead to a mass immigration by them across the channel to the EU (Land of Milk and Honey).
Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
This point might be worthy of debate, but you've more or less already done that yourself. Personally I don't care where people come from so long as they're working and paying their way. There's plenty of natives I'd kick out ahead of Polish immigrants.Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
V88Dicky said:
Not that any of this is ever going to happen soon though, more the shame. We'll have to wait until Euroland collapses in on itself after Turkey, Albania, Moldova and Belarus join (or maybe the PIIGS can do this by themselves?)
I'm pretty sure people were saying that before Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc joined too, weren't they?
V88Dicky said:
Kermit power said:
V88Dicky said:
Well, there'd be a sh*tload of laws that we could get rid of for a start. About 75% of all our laws do not originate in our own Parliament. Shocking.
How many of them or something like them would've been introduced by our own parliament anyway if they hadn't been introduced by the EU? I challenge you to give any answer other than "I have no idea", which rather undermines the assertion that 75% of them could've been done away with. Emotion overpowering reason.1Whether or not similar laws would have been introduced by our Parliament is by the by. It would have been OUR Parliament.
V88Dicky said:
Seeing that blue and gold rag removed from our lives and replaced with OUR OWN flag would be a bonus. I mean, does it really have to be on driving licenses/ disabled badges/ number plates/ passports/ public buildings/ university signs/ public works etc etc.
Again, that's emotion overpowering reason. I couldn't comment on university signs, but as far as I'm aware, public works only have an EU sign on them when they've been EU-funded, the EU logo on number plates is a matter of personal choice, I've never seen a public building flying an EU flag that wasn't also flying a Union Jack, and on things like driving licences and passports which can be used as official ID across much of the EU, surely it just makes sense to standardise, thus meaning anyone checking them in any country is more likely to recognise them and more likely to spot a fake?2Which only means its us getting some of our money back anyway. Remember, we are net contributers to the EU.
3But it was flying an EU flag, nevertheless. My point wasn't if it was flying a Union Flag also.
If I were to get emotional about it, then we seemingly lost the right to fly our own flag when the bloody Union Jack was forced upon us, so until public buildings in England fly the Cross of St George just like most public buildings in Wales and Scotland fly the dragon and the Saltire, getting pissed off about the EU flag seems frankly bizarre.
4The Union, ie United Kingdom, since coming into being, became a potent economic force, creating the industrial revolution and changing the world. I don't know about you but I'm proud to be British and I can see that the UK is more than just a sum of its component parts.
V88Dicky said:
We would undoubtedly join the EFTA (European Free Trade Area) and also possibly lobby NAFTA to join that trade block aswell.
It's good to know we can fall back on the mighty trade bloc that is Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland if NAFTA decide they don't want to sign up to the North American And One Small European Island Free Trade Agreement!Joining EFTA in and of itself if meaningless. Its only value would be in allowing us to exploit the free trade links between EFTA and the EU. Do you really think the likes of France & Germany would happily welcome back with open arms a country which had just told them to f
k off?5Why not? What else are they going to do? Anyway a trade agreement with NAFTA and an arrangement with the Commonwealth would more than suffice. I'm sure the previous Conservative Government made tentative steps to see if an arrangement with NAFTA could be agreed. North Atlantic Free Trade Area anyone?
V88Dicky said:
Committing economic suicide by spending trillions on 'Combating Climate Change' would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.
Again, emotion over reason. Regardless of whether or not you believe in climate change, how would you address the following points: would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.- From all the coverage I've seen, the UK government has put itself at the vanguard of combating climate change as a sovereign nation. What makes you think pulling out of the EU would in any way lessen this position?
- Regardless of whether or not manmade climate change exists, enough people believe in it to make it big business already, and an area with potentially vast growth ahead of it. Again, as I understand it, Britain is considered by most to be one of the countries best placed to profit economically from this. How would pulling out of the EU (and therefore any EU research funding) increase the likelihood of this potential being realised?
6Spains suicidal commitment to windymills and solar power, using taxpayers subsidies (as usual) is coming home to roost right now, with 2.2 jobs lost for every 'job' created on the back of the global warming scam. California tried it in the early 80's, and when the subsidies dried up, the wind turbines turned into rusting hulks.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/inde...
V88Dicky said:
Eastern Europeans would have no more residency and work rights than any other foreigners and this could lead to a mass immigration by them across the channel to the EU (Land of Milk and Honey).
Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
This point might be worthy of debate, but you've more or less already done that yourself. Personally I don't care where people come from so long as they're working and paying their way. There's plenty of natives I'd kick out ahead of Polish immigrants.Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
V88Dicky said:
Not that any of this is ever going to happen soon though, more the shame. We'll have to wait until Euroland collapses in on itself after Turkey, Albania, Moldova and Belarus join (or maybe the PIIGS can do this by themselves?)
I'm pretty sure people were saying that before Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc joined too, weren't they?1. It was our parliament. They chose how to implement EU directives, and the fact that in many cases they've gone over and above the steps taken by any other EU country suggest that they'd probably have introduced them or something similar anyway.
2. We are net direct contributors. Where do we stand once the additional economic benefits and any possible negative impacts of EU membership on the private sector are taken into account? I don't know the answer, but the fact that Farage and friends make no mention of it would suggest that overall EU membership is economically beneficial to the UK.
3. Exactly how does an EU flag flying on a public building impact on your quality of life and economic wellbeing?
4. Being British is completely meaningless to me. I am very proud to be English, and fully understand the pride that the Scots and the Welsh have for their nationalities. I find it interesting that we are just about the only nation, with the exception maybe of the US, that even thinks of us as "British". Mention the place to any other nation, and they lump as all together as English anyway. I imagine this is probably the reason why I feel absolutely no emotional concerns at all about EU membership. As far as I'm concerned, it's merely a question of which artificial construct sits above England, Wales and Scotland.
5. I would think it pretty likely that they would tell the EFTA members that if they allowed Britain to join EFTA, then the EU would cut free trade links to them. The value of Free Trade with the EFTA minnows is far lower to France, Germany & co than the value of sending a clear message of their intention to protect the integrity of the EU.
6. OK, so Spain has had some bad experiences with climate change investment. That doesn't answer my original question - why, given that both the last and current UK governments have a stated goal to be at the vanguard of the fight against climate change - do you think that leaving the EU would make any positive difference?
Let's put it in a simpler context. The EU, as a group, states a desire to have Halloween pumpkins measuring at least 60cm across. The UK government states a desire to have Halloween pumpkins measuring at least 80cm across. You personally want to see Halloween pumpkins of no more than 40cm across. What makes you think that pulling out of the EU tomorrow would see you closer to your desired 40cm pumpkin rule?
V88Dicky said:
Well, there'd be a sh*tload of laws that we could get rid of for a start. About 75% of all our laws do not originate in our own Parliament. Shocking.
Seeing that blue and gold rag removed from our lives and replaced with OUR OWN flag would be a bonus. I mean, does it really have to be on driving licenses/ disabled badges/ number plates/ passports/ public buildings/ university signs/ public works etc etc.
We would undoubtedly join the EFTA (European Free Trade Area) and also possibly lobby NAFTA to join that trade block aswell.
Committing economic suicide by spending trillions on 'Combating Climate Change' would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.
Eastern Europeans would have no more residency and work rights than any other foreigners and this could lead to a mass immigration by them across the channel to the EU (Land of Milk and Honey).
Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
Not that any of this is ever going to happen soon though, more the shame. We'll have to wait until Euroland collapses in on itself after Turkey, Albania, Moldova and Belarus join (or maybe the PIIGS can do this by themselves?)
How are you finding that Daily Mail subscription? Seeing that blue and gold rag removed from our lives and replaced with OUR OWN flag would be a bonus. I mean, does it really have to be on driving licenses/ disabled badges/ number plates/ passports/ public buildings/ university signs/ public works etc etc.
We would undoubtedly join the EFTA (European Free Trade Area) and also possibly lobby NAFTA to join that trade block aswell.
Committing economic suicide by spending trillions on 'Combating Climate Change'
would probably take a back seat also, hopefully being forgotten about in the long run.Eastern Europeans would have no more residency and work rights than any other foreigners and this could lead to a mass immigration by them across the channel to the EU (Land of Milk and Honey).
Of course this would leave lots of low paid, unskilled jobs with no one willing enough to switch off Jeremy Kyle and take one on.
Not that any of this is ever going to happen soon though, more the shame. We'll have to wait until Euroland collapses in on itself after Turkey, Albania, Moldova and Belarus join (or maybe the PIIGS can do this by themselves?)
Kermit power said:
Do you really think the likes of France & Germany would happily welcome back with open arms a country which had just told them to fk off?
I am absolutely 100% certain that France & Germany would bend over backwards to get a free trade agreement with us. Because they run huge trade surpluses with us. k off?Ozzie Osmond said:
Outside the EU the UK would, IMO, last about 15 seconds. Stick with the French and the Germans - I'm almost getting to like them!
Why do you think that? We lasted for a very long time outside the EU before we joined. In terms of trade it would make little difference, in or out.s2art said:
Kermit power said:
Do you really think the likes of France & Germany would happily welcome back with open arms a country which had just told them to fk off?
I am absolutely 100% certain that France & Germany would bend over backwards to get a free trade agreement with us. Because they run huge trade surpluses with us. k off?If the price of Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Lambos, Porsches, Ferraris etc, etc, etc, all went up by 30% next year due to not having a free trade agreement with the EU, where exactly would people in this country find alternatives?
Taking it the other way, what does the EU buy from Britain that it couldn't get elsewhere?
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