When did the 'War on Terror' start, and how?
Discussion
Hey folks,
Okay, so this is hardly current. However, its something which my girlfriend is writing a report about, in a round about way.
Basically she is talking about 'in groups' and 'out groups' and their conflict. The question requires a summary of when, and how the War on Terror started. I'm aware it is no longer called the War on Terror by the Obama administration, but nonetheless. The goodies and the baddies axis of evil and stuff.
The obvious answer is, of course 9/11, Bin Laden etc. We're just not sure if that is how it actually started. I believe the expression was coined by Bush Snr? So, we're talking about other motives, perhaps underlying conflicts at the time - that sort of thing. Its quite an interesting thing, and thought that amongst the bright, politically minded people on here someone could either shed light on it or direct us to some references. Like, where does Iraq come into this? Whats the story with Bin Laden atm?
Weird request, but we're both not very politically minded and its difficult to get a hold on the big picture
Cheers
Jamie.
Okay, so this is hardly current. However, its something which my girlfriend is writing a report about, in a round about way.
Basically she is talking about 'in groups' and 'out groups' and their conflict. The question requires a summary of when, and how the War on Terror started. I'm aware it is no longer called the War on Terror by the Obama administration, but nonetheless. The goodies and the baddies axis of evil and stuff.
The obvious answer is, of course 9/11, Bin Laden etc. We're just not sure if that is how it actually started. I believe the expression was coined by Bush Snr? So, we're talking about other motives, perhaps underlying conflicts at the time - that sort of thing. Its quite an interesting thing, and thought that amongst the bright, politically minded people on here someone could either shed light on it or direct us to some references. Like, where does Iraq come into this? Whats the story with Bin Laden atm?
Weird request, but we're both not very politically minded and its difficult to get a hold on the big picture
Cheers
Jamie.
Nice start Oakey, cheers
Heres a nice quote from Chomskey's Imperial Ambitions that is thought provoking:
In a new documentary The Fog of War, Robert McNamara makes a rather interesting admission. He quotes General Curtis LeMay, with whom he served in the period of the firebombing of Japanese cities, in WWII as saying '' If we'd lost the war we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals. '' McNamara says '' I think he's right... but what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win. ''
Heres a nice quote from Chomskey's Imperial Ambitions that is thought provoking:
In a new documentary The Fog of War, Robert McNamara makes a rather interesting admission. He quotes General Curtis LeMay, with whom he served in the period of the firebombing of Japanese cities, in WWII as saying '' If we'd lost the war we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals. '' McNamara says '' I think he's right... but what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win. ''
Watch 'The Power of Nightmares'. Very good documentary.
Link here, near the bottom
http://web.mac.com/blue_meanie1976/atheism/Video.h...
Link here, near the bottom
http://web.mac.com/blue_meanie1976/atheism/Video.h...
JeS10 said:
Hey folks,
Okay, so this is hardly current. However, its something which my girlfriend is writing a report about, in a round about way.
Basically she is talking about 'in groups' and 'out groups' and their conflict. The question requires a summary of when, and how the War on Terror started. I'm aware it is no longer called the War on Terror by the Obama administration, but nonetheless. The goodies and the baddies axis of evil and stuff.
The obvious answer is, of course 9/11, Bin Laden etc. We're just not sure if that is how it actually started. I believe the expression was coined by Bush Snr? So, we're talking about other motives, perhaps underlying conflicts at the time - that sort of thing. Its quite an interesting thing, and thought that amongst the bright, politically minded people on here someone could either shed light on it or direct us to some references. Like, where does Iraq come into this? Whats the story with Bin Laden atm?
Weird request, but we're both not very politically minded and its difficult to get a hold on the big picture
Cheers
Jamie.
The "war on terror" is an entirely political piece of rhetoric that is the work of the Bush administration. Okay, so this is hardly current. However, its something which my girlfriend is writing a report about, in a round about way.
Basically she is talking about 'in groups' and 'out groups' and their conflict. The question requires a summary of when, and how the War on Terror started. I'm aware it is no longer called the War on Terror by the Obama administration, but nonetheless. The goodies and the baddies axis of evil and stuff.
The obvious answer is, of course 9/11, Bin Laden etc. We're just not sure if that is how it actually started. I believe the expression was coined by Bush Snr? So, we're talking about other motives, perhaps underlying conflicts at the time - that sort of thing. Its quite an interesting thing, and thought that amongst the bright, politically minded people on here someone could either shed light on it or direct us to some references. Like, where does Iraq come into this? Whats the story with Bin Laden atm?
Weird request, but we're both not very politically minded and its difficult to get a hold on the big picture
Cheers
Jamie.
Of course, terrorists have always existed. The phrase "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" is certainly true. When the mujahideen in Afghanistan ( aka the Taliban these days) were at war with the Russians when they occupied Afghanistan in the 1980's, the US called them "freedom fighters" and gave them weapons to fight the Russians. This suited the West because Russia was still a part of a broader Soviet Union and the walls had not yet fallen and the communist soviet state had not collapsed. The Russians were the bad guys then.
Another example of course is the IRA - who received a lot of their funding from the US. Gaddafi, , Saudi etc... the list goes on.
Things changed after 9/11. Such was the political shock of 9/11 to the US, it changed everything. Rather than look at the world through a lens, where the US was in its own isolated bubble, the US political narrative was forced to change and take a stance whereby "bad people" were systematically identified and challenged. This created a political climate whereby the US government wanted to be seen to be pro-active, taking more control to confront terrorism and so give the US people a sense that their government would protect them ( and no doubt they would vote for their president as a result ). Iraq and the removal of Saddam, Afghanistan etc are all consequences of this.
So the "War on Terror" was created, a doctrine whereby the US proactively seeks out and repels, disrupts and dissuades "the bad guys" from threatening the homeland.
In the "War on Terror" we are all in it together, the doctrine says. We are all aligned to fight terrorism in all its forms, so the theory goes. We are all on watch now , smoking out the bad guys and catching them.
Welcome to the politics of the 21st century.
toppstuff said:
When the mujahideen in Afghanistan ( aka the Taliban these days)
The Mujahideen became Al Queada, not the Taliban. Once that sinks in, you can try something else.....one step at a time. http://www.infoplease.com/spot/al-qaeda-terrorism....
Jimbeaux said:
toppstuff said:
When the mujahideen in Afghanistan ( aka the Taliban these days)
The Mujahideen became Al Queada, not the Taliban. Once that sinks in, you can try something else.....one step at a time. http://www.infoplease.com/spot/al-qaeda-terrorism....
However, it's a bloody mess and if you dig right down to the bottom you find that US foreign policy was certainly one of the many root causes for the whole thing. (Sorry Jimbeaux) Their meddling in other countries causes nothing but problems, and their dupicitous actions in Iran/Iraq helped cause the whole bloody mess there. You cannot supply both sides of a war with arms and expect them not to turn on you!
Not true chaps. The idea that Mujahideen is a specific group while Al Quada is another specific group is considered by many to be a mistake.
This kind of illustrates the problem for the West. We love to pigeonhole people but in this part of the world it is not as simple as that.
Mujahideen literally means " strugglers" and in reality covers a wide range of people.
That's the thing about Afghan politics, it is very hard to categorise people in the way we in the west like to. Afghans have a fluid attitude to these things- one day a "struggler" will take up arms against a foreign invader , the following day he will take a job working for the same people if he feels it is in interests.
This kind of illustrates the problem for the West. We love to pigeonhole people but in this part of the world it is not as simple as that.
Mujahideen literally means " strugglers" and in reality covers a wide range of people.
That's the thing about Afghan politics, it is very hard to categorise people in the way we in the west like to. Afghans have a fluid attitude to these things- one day a "struggler" will take up arms against a foreign invader , the following day he will take a job working for the same people if he feels it is in interests.
The whole point of "The War on Terror" is that it is almost meaningless. How can you wage war on an atitude or a mindset?
It was a dumb thing to say and indicative of the weird approach to the world harboured by Bush and his team.
Of course a country has to do whatever it can, within the law, to protect itself against its enemies. However, utrtering vague comments such as declaring war on "terror" was just bonkers.
It was a dumb thing to say and indicative of the weird approach to the world harboured by Bush and his team.
Of course a country has to do whatever it can, within the law, to protect itself against its enemies. However, utrtering vague comments such as declaring war on "terror" was just bonkers.
Although your question is ‘When’, which I think has been answered as September 2001, this is my understanding of ‘why’…
Germany 2nd WorldWar begin to develop nuclear weapons
Einstein warns the US of the consequences of this
US embarks on the Manhattan project
US plans to drop first of several nuclear weapons on Germany
Germany surrenders prior to first weapon being ready
First & Second nuclear weapon dropped on Japan
USSR gets paranoid – begins nuclear weapon production
US & USSR can no longer overtly fight for land / assets / global influence due to nuclear MAD (mutually assured destruction)
Cold War begins between US & USSR
Several proxy wars begin between US & USSR where each arms the opposing side
Gorbachev (happy 80th birthday) reforms USSR and builds closer relationships with the West.
USSR goes pop, Russia no longer has power base and has difficulties of its own – proxy wars diminish/end.
No more cold war/proxies
Lots & lots of highly trained, battle hardened and well armed US proxy soldiers in circulation – many of them with extremist beliefs but with no war/mission to fight for.
Bin Laden, defacto leader of largest group asks US to put him and his ‘army’ into Islamic war zones on their behalf – Balkans
US say ‘Bin Laden who?’
Bin Laden asks Saudis to sponsor him and the Mujahideen in Islamic war torn countries
Saudis (officially) say ‘Bin Laden who?’
Bin Laden and fighters are left out in the cold after fighting for US interests
Mujahideen then start fighting the US with IEDs in and around US interests in far away places
Bin Laden has an unsuccessful attempt at bring the WTC building(s) down
Bin Laden has a successful attempt at bring the WTC buildings down
War on Terror phrase coined
Afghans negotiate hard on US oil pipeline deal running through their territory
US recall Bin Laden has a holiday home in Afghanistan and declares war on the Taliban
War on Terror now self fulfilling.
Other interesting research would be the relationship between the Bushes, Bin Ladens and the Saudi royal family; Carlisle Group and their relationship with these three.
All of this is my very fuzzy recollection of things I’ve read and seen, but nevertheless would make interesting research for your partners project for her to come to her own conclusions.
Germany 2nd WorldWar begin to develop nuclear weapons
Einstein warns the US of the consequences of this
US embarks on the Manhattan project
US plans to drop first of several nuclear weapons on Germany
Germany surrenders prior to first weapon being ready
First & Second nuclear weapon dropped on Japan
USSR gets paranoid – begins nuclear weapon production
US & USSR can no longer overtly fight for land / assets / global influence due to nuclear MAD (mutually assured destruction)
Cold War begins between US & USSR
Several proxy wars begin between US & USSR where each arms the opposing side
Gorbachev (happy 80th birthday) reforms USSR and builds closer relationships with the West.
USSR goes pop, Russia no longer has power base and has difficulties of its own – proxy wars diminish/end.
No more cold war/proxies
Lots & lots of highly trained, battle hardened and well armed US proxy soldiers in circulation – many of them with extremist beliefs but with no war/mission to fight for.
Bin Laden, defacto leader of largest group asks US to put him and his ‘army’ into Islamic war zones on their behalf – Balkans
US say ‘Bin Laden who?’
Bin Laden asks Saudis to sponsor him and the Mujahideen in Islamic war torn countries
Saudis (officially) say ‘Bin Laden who?’
Bin Laden and fighters are left out in the cold after fighting for US interests
Mujahideen then start fighting the US with IEDs in and around US interests in far away places
Bin Laden has an unsuccessful attempt at bring the WTC building(s) down
Bin Laden has a successful attempt at bring the WTC buildings down
War on Terror phrase coined
Afghans negotiate hard on US oil pipeline deal running through their territory
US recall Bin Laden has a holiday home in Afghanistan and declares war on the Taliban
War on Terror now self fulfilling.
Other interesting research would be the relationship between the Bushes, Bin Ladens and the Saudi royal family; Carlisle Group and their relationship with these three.
All of this is my very fuzzy recollection of things I’ve read and seen, but nevertheless would make interesting research for your partners project for her to come to her own conclusions.
DonnyMac said:
Although your question is ‘When’, which I think has been answered as September 2001, this is my understanding of ‘why’…
Germany 2nd WorldWar begin to develop nuclear weapons
Einstein warns the US of the consequences of this
US embarks on the Manhattan project
US plans to drop first of several nuclear weapons on Germany
Germany surrenders prior to first weapon being ready
First & Second nuclear weapon dropped on Japan
USSR gets paranoid – begins nuclear weapon production
US & USSR can no longer overtly fight for land / assets / global influence due to nuclear MAD (mutually assured destruction)
Cold War begins between US & USSR
Several proxy wars begin between US & USSR where each arms the opposing side
Gorbachev (happy 80th birthday) reforms USSR and builds closer relationships with the West.
USSR goes pop, Russia no longer has power base and has difficulties of its own – proxy wars diminish/end.
No more cold war/proxies
Lots & lots of highly trained, battle hardened and well armed US proxy soldiers in circulation – many of them with extremist beliefs but with no war/mission to fight for.
Bin Laden, defacto leader of largest group asks US to put him and his ‘army’ into Islamic war zones on their behalf – Balkans
US say ‘Bin Laden who?’
Bin Laden asks Saudis to sponsor him and the Mujahideen in Islamic war torn countries
Saudis (officially) say ‘Bin Laden who?’
Bin Laden and fighters are left out in the cold after fighting for US interests
Mujahideen then start fighting the US with IEDs in and around US interests in far away places
Bin Laden has an unsuccessful attempt at bring the WTC building(s) down
Bin Laden has a successful attempt at bring the WTC buildings down
War on Terror phrase coined
Afghans negotiate hard on US oil pipeline deal running through their territory
US recall Bin Laden has a holiday home in Afghanistan and declares war on the Taliban
War on Terror now self fulfilling.
Other interesting research would be the relationship between the Bushes, Bin Ladens and the Saudi royal family; Carlisle Group and their relationship with these three.
All of this is my very fuzzy recollection of things I’ve read and seen, but nevertheless would make interesting research for your partners project for her to come to her own conclusions.
Didn't Bin Laden take the hump as he offered to remove the Iraqi's from Kuwait but was turned down by the US?Germany 2nd WorldWar begin to develop nuclear weapons
Einstein warns the US of the consequences of this
US embarks on the Manhattan project
US plans to drop first of several nuclear weapons on Germany
Germany surrenders prior to first weapon being ready
First & Second nuclear weapon dropped on Japan
USSR gets paranoid – begins nuclear weapon production
US & USSR can no longer overtly fight for land / assets / global influence due to nuclear MAD (mutually assured destruction)
Cold War begins between US & USSR
Several proxy wars begin between US & USSR where each arms the opposing side
Gorbachev (happy 80th birthday) reforms USSR and builds closer relationships with the West.
USSR goes pop, Russia no longer has power base and has difficulties of its own – proxy wars diminish/end.
No more cold war/proxies
Lots & lots of highly trained, battle hardened and well armed US proxy soldiers in circulation – many of them with extremist beliefs but with no war/mission to fight for.
Bin Laden, defacto leader of largest group asks US to put him and his ‘army’ into Islamic war zones on their behalf – Balkans
US say ‘Bin Laden who?’
Bin Laden asks Saudis to sponsor him and the Mujahideen in Islamic war torn countries
Saudis (officially) say ‘Bin Laden who?’
Bin Laden and fighters are left out in the cold after fighting for US interests
Mujahideen then start fighting the US with IEDs in and around US interests in far away places
Bin Laden has an unsuccessful attempt at bring the WTC building(s) down
Bin Laden has a successful attempt at bring the WTC buildings down
War on Terror phrase coined
Afghans negotiate hard on US oil pipeline deal running through their territory
US recall Bin Laden has a holiday home in Afghanistan and declares war on the Taliban
War on Terror now self fulfilling.
Other interesting research would be the relationship between the Bushes, Bin Ladens and the Saudi royal family; Carlisle Group and their relationship with these three.
All of this is my very fuzzy recollection of things I’ve read and seen, but nevertheless would make interesting research for your partners project for her to come to her own conclusions.
jshell said:
However, it's a bloody mess and if you dig right down to the bottom you find that US UK foreign policy was certainly one of the many root causes....
EFA.This and simialr stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Frontier_P...
Digga said:
jshell said:
However, it's a bloody mess and if you dig right down to the bottom you find that US UK foreign policy was certainly one of the many root causes....
EFA.This and simialr stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Frontier_P...
jshell said:
Jimbeaux said:
toppstuff said:
When the mujahideen in Afghanistan ( aka the Taliban these days)
The Mujahideen became Al Queada, not the Taliban. Once that sinks in, you can try something else.....one step at a time. http://www.infoplease.com/spot/al-qaeda-terrorism....
However, it's a bloody mess and if you dig right down to the bottom you find that US foreign policy was certainly one of the many root causes for the whole thing. (Sorry Jimbeaux) Their meddling in other countries causes nothing but problems, and their dupicitous actions in Iran/Iraq helped cause the whole bloody mess there. You cannot supply both sides of a war with arms and expect them not to turn on you!
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