Who's made any money from Bitcoin or Shares?
Discussion
For the first time in my life (age 36) i'm starting to think about the future rather than the here and now. I've always been the person to spend money before i even had it, last few years after having a decent credit rating for the first time since i even had a credit rating, i've been spending what i have, rather than what i think i'm going to have. Over the last couple of months, the combination of a fairly big mortgage (for me, 4 x annual earnings (ltd co)), a child, and the realisation of my own mortality, i feel like i need to invest in my future for the first time in my life. My most recent contract which ends at the end of March will leave me with about 20-25k in the bank. That's only happened once before, and last time i bought a 996 turbo (which financially hasn't worked out too bad, but that is more by luck than design) This time i want to put the money to good use rather than treat myself. I live in a house i would happily spend the rest of my life in although mortgage is around 80% of value. (wife feels the same, in fact i don't think she ever dreamed of living somewhere like where we have) We both have cars that we both love, so this money is pretty much spare. We could pay a bit off the mortgage, have a dream holiday, buy a bigger tv, do work on the house or for the first time, invest in our futures.
I feel like i have 10k, that although i don't want to lose, i could lose without having a negative effect on our lives...I'm not interested in putting it somewhere to earn 5-10% a year, I'd rather risk losing it all but at the same time have a chance of doubling or even better. there are a few things I've been looking at. First two are crypto currencies, firstly Bitcoin, and secondly Ethereum. Bitcoin i like because of the massive gains seen so far...i know they have come back down from all time highs (to about a 1/3 of highest value) but i like the fact there is a limited supply, that it's the only crypto that's accepted in any businesses (my favourite pub accepts bitcoin) the fact it can be anonymous when used correctly (I realise anyone that wants to transfer money anonymously must be a drug dealer or worse)
and that it doesn't need to be stored in a bank, which could one day announce it has no money left, or have the local government decide to take some for themselves (Greece!) I also like the fact it's not controlled by any governing body that can "print more" when it's skint or freeze peoples accounts. Problems for me are the worries about the blockchain not being 'big enough' or whatever the problem is that's causing concern within the community, and the fact i think governments will not like the fact people can have money they can't control so may bring out regulations to try and stop/slow the use.
Now onto Ethereum, this, although not as established as Bitcoin, has had chance to look at the inherent problems with bitcoin, and not only try to work around them, but put the 'mining' computers to more useful work than simply verifying transactions.....i'm no computer expert and can't pretend to understand exactly what the Ethereum 'world computer' can actually do, but i can watch youtube videos and see how excited people that do understand get when they talk about it.
When i first thought i wanted to invest in bitcoin, maybe a couple of years back, i tried to buy some online and it seemed a bit of a pain. I ended up not bothering and now the price has maybe doubled. not too bad, turning a spare £200 into £400 would have been nice but not the end of the world, when mentioning this to a friend he told me about somebody who had told him to invest in bitcoin i think in 2011 (he remembered the date as he was on a particular job and knew when it was) i think when he was told about them they were around 4$ per coin. i asked him how much he would have put in as a punt, he said about £5k but never bothered, i pulled up the current price (although he remembered someone telling him about bitcoin and advising him to invest he had never given it another thought) price that day was about $400. if he had invested the spare £5k he had when advised he would now have had £500'000, if he had sold when they were $1200, he would have had £1.2 million from a £5k investment. we both started to read up, saw predictions of like $700'000 to over a million per coin and decided to buy some just in case. (I bought £500 worth, he bought £800 worth) because we were feeling excited and optimistic, we were telling everyone who would listen to buy bitcoins (we were on a good job at the time so everyone there had at least some spare cash, we're both nice people so would want others to share in our fortune) one of the guys there, who is a very clever guy but kind of quiet did some research and decided to buy £5k worth. he has some kind of masters degree in something computer related but had never heard of bitcoin and he obviously found it exciting too. about 10 days later, Bitcoins are up 20%, I've made £100 off £500, he's made £1000 off £5000, happy days. Because its going so well we are now telling anyone who looks in our direction to buy Bitcoin, one of the guys says he knows a guy who made 'a fortune off Bitcoin' and texts him to see what he thinks. The reply is that maybe there is money still to be made from bitcoin, but to have a read up on Ethereum, as that's where his money is. This was mid January, I remember thinking i need to buy some of them, but the only way i could see was to use my Bitcoins to buy them. I didn't want to do that so kinda forgot about it. Today, my friend has just set up an Ethereum mining rig and sent me pictures of it. He mentioned the price of Ether coins was over $10, I had a look at the price when I was first told about it early January and the price had been under $1....a 10x increase, in fact it has been upto $14 but come back down. so my £500 could have been worth £5000 now, or £7000 maybe a week or so ago.(thats in only 2 months) To me, Ethereum seems so much much more viable than bitcoin. Microsoft are on board with it, and it's useful aswell as doing everything Bitcoin can do. Can anyone in the know tell me any reason an Ether coin shouldn't one day be worth more than a bitcoin? Is it worth sticking £5k in? could i lose everything?
Lastly, shares. A guy I've been working with is constantly talking about shares. One of the shares he keeps talking about is a small oil company. At one point the shares, according to trends, were worth £3650 each (2003), at the moment they are around the £40-£50 mark. he has told me they have operating costs around $20 a barrel, which is lower than most western oil companies. (important part is they are unlikely to go bust unless oil goes below $20 a barrel for a significant amount of time. I know fairly certainly that an oil rig they have been building for a long time is going to hit first oil in the next few weeks. Is that going to affect a small oil companies share price significantly enough to make it worth sticking £5k in?
the guy who has been trying to get me into shares also rekons by the time we finish our contract he is going to have £100k saved up, he claims he has been watching share trends for years while saving this and when he finishes he is going to use his 100k with the aim of buying and selling on maybe even a daily basis to make 1% per day. Is 'Day trading' something people make money from? is he deluded? or is this something that people that can 'spot patterns' actually do?
Please don't tell me to stick it in an ISA or pension because I'll probably end up blowing it on a new car (used car, would be a very special new car for me to buy new) or house extension.
P.S....I'm drunk, but this is not something I'm asking because I'm drunk, although i imagine my post would have been a lot shorter had i been sober. (I'm not alcoholic, I'm on nights)
I feel like i have 10k, that although i don't want to lose, i could lose without having a negative effect on our lives...I'm not interested in putting it somewhere to earn 5-10% a year, I'd rather risk losing it all but at the same time have a chance of doubling or even better. there are a few things I've been looking at. First two are crypto currencies, firstly Bitcoin, and secondly Ethereum. Bitcoin i like because of the massive gains seen so far...i know they have come back down from all time highs (to about a 1/3 of highest value) but i like the fact there is a limited supply, that it's the only crypto that's accepted in any businesses (my favourite pub accepts bitcoin) the fact it can be anonymous when used correctly (I realise anyone that wants to transfer money anonymously must be a drug dealer or worse)
and that it doesn't need to be stored in a bank, which could one day announce it has no money left, or have the local government decide to take some for themselves (Greece!) I also like the fact it's not controlled by any governing body that can "print more" when it's skint or freeze peoples accounts. Problems for me are the worries about the blockchain not being 'big enough' or whatever the problem is that's causing concern within the community, and the fact i think governments will not like the fact people can have money they can't control so may bring out regulations to try and stop/slow the use.
Now onto Ethereum, this, although not as established as Bitcoin, has had chance to look at the inherent problems with bitcoin, and not only try to work around them, but put the 'mining' computers to more useful work than simply verifying transactions.....i'm no computer expert and can't pretend to understand exactly what the Ethereum 'world computer' can actually do, but i can watch youtube videos and see how excited people that do understand get when they talk about it.
When i first thought i wanted to invest in bitcoin, maybe a couple of years back, i tried to buy some online and it seemed a bit of a pain. I ended up not bothering and now the price has maybe doubled. not too bad, turning a spare £200 into £400 would have been nice but not the end of the world, when mentioning this to a friend he told me about somebody who had told him to invest in bitcoin i think in 2011 (he remembered the date as he was on a particular job and knew when it was) i think when he was told about them they were around 4$ per coin. i asked him how much he would have put in as a punt, he said about £5k but never bothered, i pulled up the current price (although he remembered someone telling him about bitcoin and advising him to invest he had never given it another thought) price that day was about $400. if he had invested the spare £5k he had when advised he would now have had £500'000, if he had sold when they were $1200, he would have had £1.2 million from a £5k investment. we both started to read up, saw predictions of like $700'000 to over a million per coin and decided to buy some just in case. (I bought £500 worth, he bought £800 worth) because we were feeling excited and optimistic, we were telling everyone who would listen to buy bitcoins (we were on a good job at the time so everyone there had at least some spare cash, we're both nice people so would want others to share in our fortune) one of the guys there, who is a very clever guy but kind of quiet did some research and decided to buy £5k worth. he has some kind of masters degree in something computer related but had never heard of bitcoin and he obviously found it exciting too. about 10 days later, Bitcoins are up 20%, I've made £100 off £500, he's made £1000 off £5000, happy days. Because its going so well we are now telling anyone who looks in our direction to buy Bitcoin, one of the guys says he knows a guy who made 'a fortune off Bitcoin' and texts him to see what he thinks. The reply is that maybe there is money still to be made from bitcoin, but to have a read up on Ethereum, as that's where his money is. This was mid January, I remember thinking i need to buy some of them, but the only way i could see was to use my Bitcoins to buy them. I didn't want to do that so kinda forgot about it. Today, my friend has just set up an Ethereum mining rig and sent me pictures of it. He mentioned the price of Ether coins was over $10, I had a look at the price when I was first told about it early January and the price had been under $1....a 10x increase, in fact it has been upto $14 but come back down. so my £500 could have been worth £5000 now, or £7000 maybe a week or so ago.(thats in only 2 months) To me, Ethereum seems so much much more viable than bitcoin. Microsoft are on board with it, and it's useful aswell as doing everything Bitcoin can do. Can anyone in the know tell me any reason an Ether coin shouldn't one day be worth more than a bitcoin? Is it worth sticking £5k in? could i lose everything?
Lastly, shares. A guy I've been working with is constantly talking about shares. One of the shares he keeps talking about is a small oil company. At one point the shares, according to trends, were worth £3650 each (2003), at the moment they are around the £40-£50 mark. he has told me they have operating costs around $20 a barrel, which is lower than most western oil companies. (important part is they are unlikely to go bust unless oil goes below $20 a barrel for a significant amount of time. I know fairly certainly that an oil rig they have been building for a long time is going to hit first oil in the next few weeks. Is that going to affect a small oil companies share price significantly enough to make it worth sticking £5k in?
the guy who has been trying to get me into shares also rekons by the time we finish our contract he is going to have £100k saved up, he claims he has been watching share trends for years while saving this and when he finishes he is going to use his 100k with the aim of buying and selling on maybe even a daily basis to make 1% per day. Is 'Day trading' something people make money from? is he deluded? or is this something that people that can 'spot patterns' actually do?
Please don't tell me to stick it in an ISA or pension because I'll probably end up blowing it on a new car (used car, would be a very special new car for me to buy new) or house extension.
P.S....I'm drunk, but this is not something I'm asking because I'm drunk, although i imagine my post would have been a lot shorter had i been sober. (I'm not alcoholic, I'm on nights)
PorkFan said:
I feel like i have 10k, that although i don't want to lose, i could lose without having a negative effect on our lives...I'm not interested in putting it somewhere to earn 5-10% a year, I'd rather risk losing it all but at the same time have a chance of doubling or even better.
Slow down soldier. I've got a pretty broad risk map in my head but that's off the scale.smifffymoto said:
I would be smiling and content with 10% these days with low to moderate risk.
I fear you will be skint in no time at all with such an all or nothing approach.You may as well put all of it on red at the roulette table.
Risk free rates are 0.5% - 2.5% depending on maturity.I fear you will be skint in no time at all with such an all or nothing approach.You may as well put all of it on red at the roulette table.
You can't get 10% with 'low to moderate risk'.
Ozzie Osmond said:
PorkFan said:
I feel like i have 10k, that although i don't want to lose, i could lose without having a negative effect on our lives...I'm not interested in putting it somewhere to earn 5-10% a year, I'd rather risk losing it all but at the same time have a chance of doubling or even better.
Slow down soldier. I've got a pretty broad risk map in my head but that's off the scale.
OP, you sound like I felt when I first heard about Bitcoin. I decided to buy at $90 but by the time I'd sent my money half way round the world and had all my identity approved it was at about $200. I jumped in with no experience of trading and made some massive gains as the market was volatile and i was lucky, the value then shot up to $1200. If I had known what I was doing and calmed myself down I would be sitting on a beach right now with a cocktail. But I didn't know what I was doing and was blinded by the emotion that comes with trading and investing.
My advice, as you're still young, is set yourself up with the knowledge of how to choose wise investments. This will take some time, but without it you will always be listening to other people telling you when and where to invest. That's ok if you have the knowledge to spot the true investments and the steady hand and emotion to work out the risks and decide how much of your pot gets invested.
My advice, as you're still young, is set yourself up with the knowledge of how to choose wise investments. This will take some time, but without it you will always be listening to other people telling you when and where to invest. That's ok if you have the knowledge to spot the true investments and the steady hand and emotion to work out the risks and decide how much of your pot gets invested.
something to consider;
You have 10K, you stick a thousand in a pie in the sky idea with little or no real knowledge of what you are getting into.
So you get lucky and you make an 80% gain, great.
Now you have 10,800 which is an 8% gain
8% is the target annual gain for the majority of serious investors who limit risk.
Everyone likes a little excitement, I get lots of calls from brokers who want to ensnare me as a client, they always have a hot share on offer.
I never bite, but as they are gabbling on I bring up the share on my screen and do a quick assessment paying attention to the volume as I know they and others are pushing it. If the volume is not yet too high, the short ratio still low I sometimes grab a few myself. I know these guys push these things for a week before they move onto the next one. Last one STRP (please don't buy it) bandwidth owner in at 26 out 37 in 2 days, after 4 days back to 30. I make a couple of thousand with just 200 shares because I can recognise the way these people operate. A week later the guy calls me back asking if I watched his recommendation telling me it went up to 39, I reply "What share was it" they usually grunt and hang up.
These telephone brokers are a pain in the butt and I consider them fair game for calling me on my "do not call" listed phone.
That's how I get my buzz.
My wife and I go out for a nice meal.
There is no shortcut to making money, emotional choices that you think may make you lots of money usually don't.
One loss nearly always negates four gains. I speak from experience (unfortunately)
You have 10K, you stick a thousand in a pie in the sky idea with little or no real knowledge of what you are getting into.
So you get lucky and you make an 80% gain, great.
Now you have 10,800 which is an 8% gain
8% is the target annual gain for the majority of serious investors who limit risk.
Everyone likes a little excitement, I get lots of calls from brokers who want to ensnare me as a client, they always have a hot share on offer.
I never bite, but as they are gabbling on I bring up the share on my screen and do a quick assessment paying attention to the volume as I know they and others are pushing it. If the volume is not yet too high, the short ratio still low I sometimes grab a few myself. I know these guys push these things for a week before they move onto the next one. Last one STRP (please don't buy it) bandwidth owner in at 26 out 37 in 2 days, after 4 days back to 30. I make a couple of thousand with just 200 shares because I can recognise the way these people operate. A week later the guy calls me back asking if I watched his recommendation telling me it went up to 39, I reply "What share was it" they usually grunt and hang up.
These telephone brokers are a pain in the butt and I consider them fair game for calling me on my "do not call" listed phone.
That's how I get my buzz.
My wife and I go out for a nice meal.
There is no shortcut to making money, emotional choices that you think may make you lots of money usually don't.
One loss nearly always negates four gains. I speak from experience
(unfortunately)O/P tldnr; maybe reinvest the budget you spend on pills & powders into sthg more useful ? 
I bought BTC over 3 years ago and it's done very well indeed. However, it's an extremely volatile market and was only ever a punt on a hunch with money I truly didn't mind losing. It's a long term hold for me.
I would never bet the house on it. Innovations around the blockchain ledger concept are an incredibly exciting space and arguably far more useful in the short to medium term real world than any crypto currency itself. However, the distribution of any "coin" for blockchain use can be kept private to the banking (or any other transaction, eg property) system, thus I don't think any current crypto currency has a clear market advantage in this space, Ethereum included.
Investors are speculating heavily whilst failing to understand the underlying technologies. Creators of new coin brands are often hoodwinking the naive with sharp practices to talk up potential. Not a good sign. If you don't understand the investment and don't spend time reading up, steer well clear.
I bought BTC over 3 years ago and it's done very well indeed. However, it's an extremely volatile market and was only ever a punt on a hunch with money I truly didn't mind losing. It's a long term hold for me.
I would never bet the house on it. Innovations around the blockchain ledger concept are an incredibly exciting space and arguably far more useful in the short to medium term real world than any crypto currency itself. However, the distribution of any "coin" for blockchain use can be kept private to the banking (or any other transaction, eg property) system, thus I don't think any current crypto currency has a clear market advantage in this space, Ethereum included.
Investors are speculating heavily whilst failing to understand the underlying technologies. Creators of new coin brands are often hoodwinking the naive with sharp practices to talk up potential. Not a good sign. If you don't understand the investment and don't spend time reading up, steer well clear.
PorkFan said:
Lastly, shares. A guy I've been working with is constantly talking about shares. One of the shares he keeps talking about is a small oil company. At one point the shares, according to trends, were worth £3650 each (2003), at the moment they are around the £40-£50 mark. he has told me they have operating costs around $20 a barrel, which is lower than most western oil companies. (important part is they are unlikely to go bust unless oil goes below $20 a barrel for a significant amount of time. I know fairly certainly that an oil rig they have been building for a long time is going to hit first oil in the next few weeks. Is that going to affect a small oil companies share price significantly enough to make it worth sticking £5k in?
What oil company is it and i'll let you know my thoughts.There's a few red flags i can see straight away in what you have said though -
"At one point the shares, according to trends, were worth £3650 each (2003)" - forget about past price, it's gone. Just because a share was x price before doesn't mean that's what it's worth/will be worth again. I can't think of any oil company that has had shares at £3650 though, are you sure you are reading it right?
"important part is they are unlikely to go bust unless oil goes below $20 a barrel for a significant amount of time" - I'm afraid that's not how it works. Just because it costs $20 a barrel to get out the ground doesn't make it financially viable to do so. The company could (and probably is) saddled with a massive pile of debt/interest that needs paid as well.
"I know fairly certainly that an oil rig they have been building for a long time is going to hit first oil in the next few weeks." - How could you possibly know that?
I'm happy to give you some help in what to look for if you decide to go this route but please don't listen to people that talk about retiring on the profits they are going to make once 'their' oil company hits it big. It will only end badly.
I've made a little bit of money in Bitcoin and, more recently Ethereum and Counterparty, but I'm not fooling myself into thinking I'm some sort of investment genius, I was just interested and happened to be around at the right time. Dumb luck. Equivalent to sticking £20 in a fruit machine and winning the £200 jackpot. They're all interesting concepts, but they are not investment vehicles. Christ, just look at the Ethereum (or indeed Counterparty) prices over the last week or two. Counterparty has gone from $0.70 to $3.20 and is back down to $1.76 as I type. It's a fun way to make a bit of small change, but you'd be an emotional wreck if you had serious money on the line with those sort of moves. I can barely hold my nerve sitting on about $100 of ETH!
If you're genuinely interested in them as a concept rather than a get rich quick scheme, buy a few bitcoin (easy enough these days) and have a play, but don't treat it as anything but a bit of geeky fun. My current rule is any gain above a certain point gets bounced into Amazon vouchers, with a percentage donated to RNLI.
If you're genuinely interested in them as a concept rather than a get rich quick scheme, buy a few bitcoin (easy enough these days) and have a play, but don't treat it as anything but a bit of geeky fun. My current rule is any gain above a certain point gets bounced into Amazon vouchers, with a percentage donated to RNLI.
Hi PorkFan,
I'm actually very involved in the space, and completely hear where you are coming from in your thinking. However, I strongly advise against any exposure to an investment as a "punt" bitcoin included.
I appreciate, especially with bitcoin, that is the general approach due to investors being attracted to the volatility and the overall buzz surrounding the industry itself. What I've been experiencing, with these very same investors is that they are attempting to get involved in bitcoin for all the wrong reasons. By seeing it as a "get rich quick" scheme.
The common questions surrounding bitcoin are:
What was the price yesterday
What is the price right now
And what do you believe the price will be in x time?
(OP i'm not saying you fit this mould as you actually have a sound understanding of the principles of bitcoin)
To which I reply.... The price of bitcoin is not only the least interesting thing there is to know about it, it's also the least relevant piece of information you need to know right now as an investor.
You MUST understand why Bitcoin is relevant in the first place to then talk about any form of capital allocation. Unfortunately because understanding Bitcoin is so difficult to most, especially when trying to do so off your own steam, most investors stay well clear. And rightly so.
Once you truly understand Bitcoin, not only will you take it seriously & promote it from the "punt" pile of your portfolio, you will also be far better equipped (mentally) to handle being down circa 20% or on the flip side... up even 80% and not get itchy fingers (under the right market conditions). Because you understand what this is, where it's going and why it's relevant in the first place.
In reference to Ethereum, What a crazy couple of months its been!. While I agree with what you said about Ethereum having the benefit of learning from Bitcoin, it's also worth noting that bitcoin is 'programable money' therefor all alternatives to bitcoin effectively serve as a test bed / laboratory, in which new concepts can be deployed and introduced into the public space. Bitcoin can effectively inherit features that gain traction if there's enough demand to do so.
While I'm personally involved in ETH as well as Monero(XMR) these really do fit the laboratory analogy and should be treated as such. I'm personally up over 400% on XMR since DEC15 and a lil more with ETH. However these should be treated as money you could VERY realistically loose. However my principle has now been pulled and i'm now in these alternatives risk free for the long term.
So long story short, I think you are right and well ahead of the curve to look at bitcoin, however it is still high risk and proper care should be taken in understanding what it is before you allocate even a pound towards it.
As for ETH, I'd wait for the next big crash but again, price is irrelevant until you understand the why.
I'm actually very involved in the space, and completely hear where you are coming from in your thinking. However, I strongly advise against any exposure to an investment as a "punt" bitcoin included.
I appreciate, especially with bitcoin, that is the general approach due to investors being attracted to the volatility and the overall buzz surrounding the industry itself. What I've been experiencing, with these very same investors is that they are attempting to get involved in bitcoin for all the wrong reasons. By seeing it as a "get rich quick" scheme.
The common questions surrounding bitcoin are:
What was the price yesterday
What is the price right now
And what do you believe the price will be in x time?
(OP i'm not saying you fit this mould as you actually have a sound understanding of the principles of bitcoin)
To which I reply.... The price of bitcoin is not only the least interesting thing there is to know about it, it's also the least relevant piece of information you need to know right now as an investor.
You MUST understand why Bitcoin is relevant in the first place to then talk about any form of capital allocation. Unfortunately because understanding Bitcoin is so difficult to most, especially when trying to do so off your own steam, most investors stay well clear. And rightly so.
Once you truly understand Bitcoin, not only will you take it seriously & promote it from the "punt" pile of your portfolio, you will also be far better equipped (mentally) to handle being down circa 20% or on the flip side... up even 80% and not get itchy fingers (under the right market conditions). Because you understand what this is, where it's going and why it's relevant in the first place.
In reference to Ethereum, What a crazy couple of months its been!. While I agree with what you said about Ethereum having the benefit of learning from Bitcoin, it's also worth noting that bitcoin is 'programable money' therefor all alternatives to bitcoin effectively serve as a test bed / laboratory, in which new concepts can be deployed and introduced into the public space. Bitcoin can effectively inherit features that gain traction if there's enough demand to do so.
While I'm personally involved in ETH as well as Monero(XMR) these really do fit the laboratory analogy and should be treated as such. I'm personally up over 400% on XMR since DEC15 and a lil more with ETH. However these should be treated as money you could VERY realistically loose. However my principle has now been pulled and i'm now in these alternatives risk free for the long term.
So long story short, I think you are right and well ahead of the curve to look at bitcoin, however it is still high risk and proper care should be taken in understanding what it is before you allocate even a pound towards it.
As for ETH, I'd wait for the next big crash but again, price is irrelevant until you understand the why.
Edited by btchudson on Monday 21st March 16:34
Edited by btchudson on Monday 21st March 16:37
Thanks for all of the replies, a lot to take in and digest.
The Oil company is Premier oil, you could be right, I may have misread the chart.
I had already "invested" around £500 in Bitcoin prior to writing original post, which I'm happy to just sit on as the idea matures and evolves.
I'm thinking of getting maybe a similar amount worth of Ether just as a Punt/experiment.... but mainly just so I'm not kicking myself if I see the price has dramatically risen at some point. I guess I'd rather regret something I 'have' done, than something I haven't done.
If I did get lucky with any of these 'Punts' then I'd look more seriously at putting the money made somewhere safer..... making 5 or 10% may not seem too exciting with only 5 or 10k invested, I'm sure if I had the amount of money some on here probably have to play with then I'd be more than happy with that.... and much less likely to risk losing it.
Thanks again everyone
The Oil company is Premier oil, you could be right, I may have misread the chart.
I had already "invested" around £500 in Bitcoin prior to writing original post, which I'm happy to just sit on as the idea matures and evolves.
I'm thinking of getting maybe a similar amount worth of Ether just as a Punt/experiment.... but mainly just so I'm not kicking myself if I see the price has dramatically risen at some point. I guess I'd rather regret something I 'have' done, than something I haven't done.
If I did get lucky with any of these 'Punts' then I'd look more seriously at putting the money made somewhere safer..... making 5 or 10% may not seem too exciting with only 5 or 10k invested, I'm sure if I had the amount of money some on here probably have to play with then I'd be more than happy with that.... and much less likely to risk losing it.
Thanks again everyone
I found this site very useful to get started: http://monevator.com/
Lots of useful info about keeping costs low, minimise taxes, platforms to use, understanding how much risk you are prepared to take.
Personally, I think Bitcoin is worthless. It's not backed by anything, just represents the electricity that had been used to find a number by brute-force calculations.
I've been lucky so far this year, picked up 20x FTSE100 stocks when the index was 5500-5900 and am now up 15%. Will just keep them for the long-term now. If it crashes, I'll buy some more.
It's all kept in a SIPP via salary sacrifice. With my effective marginal tax rate of 65%, I triple my initial net investment before I even start. (How's that for a "boring" pension)
Lots of useful info about keeping costs low, minimise taxes, platforms to use, understanding how much risk you are prepared to take.
Personally, I think Bitcoin is worthless. It's not backed by anything, just represents the electricity that had been used to find a number by brute-force calculations.
I've been lucky so far this year, picked up 20x FTSE100 stocks when the index was 5500-5900 and am now up 15%. Will just keep them for the long-term now. If it crashes, I'll buy some more.
It's all kept in a SIPP via salary sacrifice. With my effective marginal tax rate of 65%, I triple my initial net investment before I even start. (How's that for a "boring" pension)
Edited by rotarymazda on Tuesday 22 March 08:12
rotarymazda said:
Personally, I think Bitcoin is worthless. It's not backed by anything, just represents the electricity that had been used to find a number by brute-force calculations.
Umm, it's clearly not in any way worthless since you can swap it right now for stuff you no doubt do regard as having worth 
You could equally say a kg of gold is intrinsically worthless. But in reality, these things all have value that people subjectively ascribe to them.
The value of BTC doesn't represent the value of the electricity used in its production. It's more the reverse; the cost to mine more is directly related to how much they are worth. Bitcoin sits well clear of any monetary interference from government and is backed by a time restricted algorithm that is impossible to cheat.
For any form of barter you need something to barter with. Gold is a handy example in that it has physical existence and has been in use for thousands of years. It's also still vaguely useful today for use on electrical contacts which must not oxidise. I wouldn't invest in it.
A Bitcoin is .... nothing. Sure, some people are easily duped that "nothings" have a value. The various cons around selling people stuff that doesn't exist have also been going on for thousands of years. I very definitely wouldn't invest in them.
Ozzie's comment: I am very concerned about the long term "zero interest" policies of central banks. IMO it makes hard currency more like Bitcoins and less like gold. Money has little intrinsic value if when you lend it to somebody for a year (the bank) they don't do anything at the end except give you your money back.
A Bitcoin is .... nothing. Sure, some people are easily duped that "nothings" have a value. The various cons around selling people stuff that doesn't exist have also been going on for thousands of years. I very definitely wouldn't invest in them.
Ozzie's comment: I am very concerned about the long term "zero interest" policies of central banks. IMO it makes hard currency more like Bitcoins and less like gold. Money has little intrinsic value if when you lend it to somebody for a year (the bank) they don't do anything at the end except give you your money back.
I found myself in a similair situation to yourself a couple of months ago. I had a payout of an old pension that was sold off before Christmas, I'm 41, it was only £8k but it paid off a credit card and I enjoyed Christmas with it, treated myself to some new things etc etc...
I was left with about £4k which I stuck in my old ISA but wasnt getting much interest in it. Now ive always had an interest in the stock market, played the odd fantasy game and done ok, but never had the balls to go for it.
I come across a betting platform which guaranteed results on the stock market but after research it turned out it was a scam, cant remember the name of it but was well known with a fake news story where they demonstrated its capabilities.
Anyway after looking into that I found a genuine site that offered a similair service spread betting on the markets and they had a demo account to play with £10k. https://www.ig.com/uk/demo-account
After playing with it for a couple of weeks, I made a few mistakes but found a format that worked for me and I decided to go for it with a full account nearly 4 weeks ago.
Started off putting £500 in and got to £600 fairly quickly, but a few trades started going wrong and I was about to give up, I shored it back up with another £300 and closed a trade I was a bit scared of, lesson learned. I built it back up within a week and made a few quid on top within 2 weeks I had made £500 so had £1300 in my account. Started getting a little more agressive and once again it went backwards. After seeing some losses that I had previously closed that would have come back if I held my nerve I decided to put more money in again, another £700, so my total investment now stands at £1500. As I predicted they came back in, I think at that point I turned a corner in my approach to the deals, as of today my account is showing £3600, thats a £2100 gain in less than 4 weeks, i'm starting to question why I work and wether all this is legal...
I was left with about £4k which I stuck in my old ISA but wasnt getting much interest in it. Now ive always had an interest in the stock market, played the odd fantasy game and done ok, but never had the balls to go for it.
I come across a betting platform which guaranteed results on the stock market but after research it turned out it was a scam, cant remember the name of it but was well known with a fake news story where they demonstrated its capabilities.
Anyway after looking into that I found a genuine site that offered a similair service spread betting on the markets and they had a demo account to play with £10k. https://www.ig.com/uk/demo-account
After playing with it for a couple of weeks, I made a few mistakes but found a format that worked for me and I decided to go for it with a full account nearly 4 weeks ago.
Started off putting £500 in and got to £600 fairly quickly, but a few trades started going wrong and I was about to give up, I shored it back up with another £300 and closed a trade I was a bit scared of, lesson learned. I built it back up within a week and made a few quid on top within 2 weeks I had made £500 so had £1300 in my account. Started getting a little more agressive and once again it went backwards. After seeing some losses that I had previously closed that would have come back if I held my nerve I decided to put more money in again, another £700, so my total investment now stands at £1500. As I predicted they came back in, I think at that point I turned a corner in my approach to the deals, as of today my account is showing £3600, thats a £2100 gain in less than 4 weeks, i'm starting to question why I work and wether all this is legal...
Edited by Mikey G on Tuesday 22 March 12:49
Mikey G said:
I found myself in a similair situation to yourself a couple of months ago. I had a payout of an old pension that was sold off before Christmas, I'm 41, it was only £8k but it paid off a credit card and I enjoyed Christmas with it, treated myself to some new things etc etc...
I was left with about £4k which I stuck in my old ISA but wasnt getting much interest in it. Now ive always had an interest in the stock market, played the odd fantasy game and done ok, but never had the balls to go for it.
I come across a betting platform which guaranteed results on the stock market but after research it turned out it was a scam, cant remember the name of it but was well known with a fake news story where they demonstrated its capabilities.
Anyway after looking into that I found a genuine site that offered a similair service spread betting on the markets and they had a demo account to play with £10k. https://www.ig.com/uk/demo-account
After playing with it for a couple of weeks, I made a few mistakes but found a format that worked for me and I decided to go for it with a full account nearly 4 weeks ago.
Started off putting £500 in and got to £600 fairly quickly, but a few trades started going wrong and I was about to give up, I shored it back up with another £300 and closed a trade I was a bit scared of, lesson learned. I built it back up within a week and made a few quid on top within 2 weeks I had made £500 so had £1300 in my account. Started getting a little more agressive and once again it went backwards. After seeing some losses that I had previously closed that would have come back if I held my nerve I decided to put more money in again, another £800, so my total investment now stands at £1500. As I predicted they came back in, I think at that point I turned a corner in my approach to the deals, as of today my account is showing £3600, thats a £2100 gain in less than 4 weeks, i'm starting to question why I work and wether all this is legal...
May i ask an honest question, what do you think you know that allows you to 'beat' the market consistently like this?I was left with about £4k which I stuck in my old ISA but wasnt getting much interest in it. Now ive always had an interest in the stock market, played the odd fantasy game and done ok, but never had the balls to go for it.
I come across a betting platform which guaranteed results on the stock market but after research it turned out it was a scam, cant remember the name of it but was well known with a fake news story where they demonstrated its capabilities.
Anyway after looking into that I found a genuine site that offered a similair service spread betting on the markets and they had a demo account to play with £10k. https://www.ig.com/uk/demo-account
After playing with it for a couple of weeks, I made a few mistakes but found a format that worked for me and I decided to go for it with a full account nearly 4 weeks ago.
Started off putting £500 in and got to £600 fairly quickly, but a few trades started going wrong and I was about to give up, I shored it back up with another £300 and closed a trade I was a bit scared of, lesson learned. I built it back up within a week and made a few quid on top within 2 weeks I had made £500 so had £1300 in my account. Started getting a little more agressive and once again it went backwards. After seeing some losses that I had previously closed that would have come back if I held my nerve I decided to put more money in again, another £800, so my total investment now stands at £1500. As I predicted they came back in, I think at that point I turned a corner in my approach to the deals, as of today my account is showing £3600, thats a £2100 gain in less than 4 weeks, i'm starting to question why I work and wether all this is legal...
Im all for investing in stocks and shares, particularly when considering how low interest rates are, but this leveraged style derivative trading is very high risk, cool if your happy with it, just a comment.
What you are doing is called spread betting, yes its legal, and with the sort of returns and leverage quoted from your figures, the clues in the name, its betting rather than investment, ask the tax man!
Edited by gibbon on Tuesday 22 March 12:20
gibbon said:
May i ask an honest question, what do you think you know that allows you to 'beat' the market consistently like this?
Im all for investing in stocks and shares, particularly when considering how low interest rates are, but this leveraged style derivative trading is very high risk, cool if your happy with it, just a comment.
What you are doing is called spread betting, yes its legal, and with the sort of returns and leverage quoted from your figures, the clues in the name, its betting rather than investment, ask the tax man!
I'll be honest, I know very little. My gains mostly come from small bets watching patterns happening on the graphs, reacting to good/bad news days both on the whole markets and the odd individual company. I started on the 5 minute markets but discovered just putting small bets on the main futures worked better for me. I had a good day on the currencies with the announcments made last week, and I have learned when to end a bet if I feel it may go pear shaped and I've had a good day elsewhere.Im all for investing in stocks and shares, particularly when considering how low interest rates are, but this leveraged style derivative trading is very high risk, cool if your happy with it, just a comment.
What you are doing is called spread betting, yes its legal, and with the sort of returns and leverage quoted from your figures, the clues in the name, its betting rather than investment, ask the tax man!
Edited by gibbon on Tuesday 22 March 12:20
Ozzie Osmond said:
For any form of barter you need something to barter with. Gold is a handy example in that it has physical existence and has been in use for thousands of years. It's also still vaguely useful today for use on electrical contacts which must not oxidise. I wouldn't invest in it.
A Bitcoin is .... nothing. Sure, some people are easily duped that "nothings" have a value. The various cons around selling people stuff that doesn't exist have also been going on for thousands of years. I very definitely wouldn't invest in them.
Our minds are nothing but electricity (the brain runs at about 20W iirc) and when the power is switched off, we die. Nevertheless, this "nothing" clearly has value.A Bitcoin is .... nothing. Sure, some people are easily duped that "nothings" have a value. The various cons around selling people stuff that doesn't exist have also been going on for thousands of years. I very definitely wouldn't invest in them.
I appreciate your point of view. If you don't understand the technology that scaffolds these digital innovations then yes, I'd steer well clear. But you can't declare that only physical goods have value. There are plenty of non physical goods that have demonstrably great value. And even things like gold have a value far and above their worth in industrial applications.
The message capability inside the blockchain most certainly has a great value. It is a time stamped, irrefutable, globally distributed data store. There has been nothing like it. Technology companies are investing in it, even dinosaurs like Microsoft are beginning to get it (they now offer Ethereum blockchain as a service via Azure). This stuff will, without a shadow of a doubt, revolutionise fintech in ways we can't even yet imagine. Distributed apps & secure smart contracts will disrupt settlement processes and remove middlemen, benefiting all with time & cost efficiencies.
Where Bitcoin sits in this revolution of transaction & currency mechanics, it's difficult to say and I wish I had a crystal ball. However, as the progenitor technology, it certainly can't be dismissed as a "worthless nothing".
In the mid 90s, I used to talk about the internet to magazine publishers and was often dismissed as a fantasist by those hiding in their shells with closed minds. Many of these publishers no longer have real world physical magazines and their editorial equity is 100% online. Worthless nothing?
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