Brother Skimming Money from Mum's account
Discussion
Yesterday we found out our mum was overdrawn in her bank account to the tune of nearly £1k, which is her overdraft limit.
My sister was with mum and went to the cashpoint with her to withdraw some money and found out she had none. They went into the bank to find out why and made some startling discoveries.
Bit of background; my mum's on her own since dad died in 2013, brother aged 57 (unemployed), me 47 (FTE) and sister 44(FTE).
We all know mum's PIN for her bankcard, she refuses to use ATM's so she will call us to get some money out at the cashpoints or she will go in her local bank where they know her and she will withdraw money over the counter.
Looking at statements, someone has been withdrawing money to the tune of £300 each time, sometimes using two different ATM's on the same day, amounting to about £2.5-3k in July-August. Most of the money was taken when I was on holiday in Tenerife and my sister was holidaying in Cornwall.
Mum lost her bankcard in her home just before we went away and ordered a new one. Strangely, the card wasn't reported as lost/stolen as she thought it was in the house so it was still operational.
Nearly all of the withdrawals have been at the Post Office behind mum's house or the ATM at the local Co-Op, again behind mum's house.
Going back through the statements it's clear she has asked our brother to withdraw, say £100. this shows up on the statement. But then a minute later there is another amount withdrawn for £50/£100, so clearly skimming going on.
The bank say they are not liable. We asked about why the account wasn't questioned over 'irregular activity' but they say they wouldn't because each transaction was PIN enabled.
One day a couple of months ago, our brother accompanied mum to the bank for her to withdraw cash (this isn't out of the ordinary) but the cashier was reluctant to hand cash over because of the man with her (bro) but ultimately had to give my mom what she asked for. The cashier made a note on mum's account about the concerns.
Looking at the pattern, it looks like simple skimming, it could have been going on for years and my sister has ordered staements going back 6 years. But something has happened for our brother to completely take all he can every time he visited the ATM. He has even walked to mum's address to use the PO or ATM by her house instead of where he lives (2-3 miles away).
We have confronted him but he says quietly it's not him, rather than be outraged we should suspect him.
We have spoken to a police officer who says they wouldn't be interested but this is clearly theft.
Surely the police would want to pursue this? Our brother has cleared out the account, even the into the red.
We have asked at the post office and the Co-Op for CCTV but they only keep it for 30 days till it's overwritten so it is now too late.
What else can we do?
My sister was with mum and went to the cashpoint with her to withdraw some money and found out she had none. They went into the bank to find out why and made some startling discoveries.
Bit of background; my mum's on her own since dad died in 2013, brother aged 57 (unemployed), me 47 (FTE) and sister 44(FTE).
We all know mum's PIN for her bankcard, she refuses to use ATM's so she will call us to get some money out at the cashpoints or she will go in her local bank where they know her and she will withdraw money over the counter.
Looking at statements, someone has been withdrawing money to the tune of £300 each time, sometimes using two different ATM's on the same day, amounting to about £2.5-3k in July-August. Most of the money was taken when I was on holiday in Tenerife and my sister was holidaying in Cornwall.
Mum lost her bankcard in her home just before we went away and ordered a new one. Strangely, the card wasn't reported as lost/stolen as she thought it was in the house so it was still operational.
Nearly all of the withdrawals have been at the Post Office behind mum's house or the ATM at the local Co-Op, again behind mum's house.
Going back through the statements it's clear she has asked our brother to withdraw, say £100. this shows up on the statement. But then a minute later there is another amount withdrawn for £50/£100, so clearly skimming going on.
The bank say they are not liable. We asked about why the account wasn't questioned over 'irregular activity' but they say they wouldn't because each transaction was PIN enabled.
One day a couple of months ago, our brother accompanied mum to the bank for her to withdraw cash (this isn't out of the ordinary) but the cashier was reluctant to hand cash over because of the man with her (bro) but ultimately had to give my mom what she asked for. The cashier made a note on mum's account about the concerns.
Looking at the pattern, it looks like simple skimming, it could have been going on for years and my sister has ordered staements going back 6 years. But something has happened for our brother to completely take all he can every time he visited the ATM. He has even walked to mum's address to use the PO or ATM by her house instead of where he lives (2-3 miles away).
We have confronted him but he says quietly it's not him, rather than be outraged we should suspect him.
We have spoken to a police officer who says they wouldn't be interested but this is clearly theft.
Surely the police would want to pursue this? Our brother has cleared out the account, even the into the red.
We have asked at the post office and the Co-Op for CCTV but they only keep it for 30 days till it's overwritten so it is now too late.
What else can we do?
Right, I'm not generally known for looking at things rationally and my heart says your brother needs a boot in the bawz; but my head says that if this is happening, your brother is in some sort of trouble.
Talk to him?
I'm not sure how you could recoup the loss though- and stealing from your own mum is piss poor.
Talk to him?
I'm not sure how you could recoup the loss though- and stealing from your own mum is piss poor.
Chunkymonkey_71 said:
Right, I'm not generally known for looking at things rationally and my heart says your brother needs a boot in the bawz; but my head says that if this is happening, your brother is in some sort of trouble.
Talk to him?
I'm not sure how you could recoup the loss though- and stealing from your own mum is piss poor.
We have talked to him, he denies it's him even with the evidence in front of him. He's always been in trouble financially. He can't keep cash in his pocket, he HAS to spend it.Talk to him?
I'm not sure how you could recoup the loss though- and stealing from your own mum is piss poor.
He is diabetic, unemployable, and now quite sick. I wouldn't be surprised if he failed to last the next five years.
Mum can cut ties with him but really we need him around as well as us to help look after her, she's 80 soon. He will have his share of the inheritance I guess, minus any he's stolen and that's if mum doesn't cut him out!
Not much you can do, if he won't admit it and there isn't really any concrete evidence to present to him and/or the police. He doesn't sound like an arch crim, just a bit of a sad case. I wouldn't involve the police for such an amount.
Guess you'll have to move on, get your mum a new bank card, make sure only you and your sister know the pin number, and the problem will stop.
Like you say, he can repay the money with less inheritance when the time comes, but he could argue that if it's not proven.
Guess you'll have to move on, get your mum a new bank card, make sure only you and your sister know the pin number, and the problem will stop.
Like you say, he can repay the money with less inheritance when the time comes, but he could argue that if it's not proven.
Sad for your mum too, but all too common
A nephew was always being bailed by my mum (drug addict with a long list of sob stories, him not her
)
I called age concern & they sent me some leaflets to share with her. Basically backing me up that he’s a waste of space & his behaviour was pretty copybook. Good for her to see it from an independent.
Maybe seek their advice?
A nephew was always being bailed by my mum (drug addict with a long list of sob stories, him not her
)I called age concern & they sent me some leaflets to share with her. Basically backing me up that he’s a waste of space & his behaviour was pretty copybook. Good for her to see it from an independent.
Maybe seek their advice?
Fastchas said:
We all know mum's PIN for her bankcard
There goes any hope of getting the bank to cooperate.Fastchas said:
Mum lost her bankcard in her home just before we went away and ordered a new one. Strangely, the card wasn't reported as lost/stolen as she thought it was in the house so it was still operational.
I'm surprised that they didn't automatically cancel the old card.Fastchas said:
The bank say they are not liable.
They aren't. She let them off the hook the minute she broke the card Ts & Cs by telling other people the PIN.Fastchas said:
We have confronted him but he says quietly it's not him, rather than be outraged we should suspect him.
We have spoken to a police officer who says they wouldn't be interested but this is clearly theft.
Surely the police would want to pursue this?
Does YOUR MOTHER want to press charges?We have spoken to a police officer who says they wouldn't be interested but this is clearly theft.
Surely the police would want to pursue this?
Is there any actual evidence?
Fastchas said:
What else can we do?
I presume you've cancelled the "missing" card and changed the PIN on the extant one...?About your only other thing you can do is to make it very clear to your brother that, even though charges may not be pressed, you hold him responsible, and you do not want to have anything to do with him any more. It's up to your mother what attitude she takes to the whole sorry mess, but she's really got to accept that she's partially responsible for enabling him to rip her off like that.
We've had a little while to reflect.
There is no point in troubling the police further, they won't be interested. The bank are clearly not to blame either.
Our brother is clearly responsible but we have no concrete evidence, the lack of CCTV sees to that.
He knows we/mum know, he knows she has a new card and the PIN was changed yesterday so no chance of him getting more. It's up to our mum now how she goes forward with it.
It'll be interesting to see if he comes clean and apologises. His missus must be fuming. She works all hours on minimum wage and it looks like she has no idea he'd got extra money in his pocket!
There is no point in troubling the police further, they won't be interested. The bank are clearly not to blame either.
Our brother is clearly responsible but we have no concrete evidence, the lack of CCTV sees to that.
He knows we/mum know, he knows she has a new card and the PIN was changed yesterday so no chance of him getting more. It's up to our mum now how she goes forward with it.
It'll be interesting to see if he comes clean and apologises. His missus must be fuming. She works all hours on minimum wage and it looks like she has no idea he'd got extra money in his pocket!
Edited by Fastchas on Wednesday 4th October 14:27
What TooMany2cvs said. The bank have no responsibility. What is the unusual pattern that they should have spotted? regular cash withdrawals of roughly the same amount?
Unusual would be a sudden £2000 in New York, not an extra £50 at the Co-Op.
Change PIN, don't give brother card. If your mum doesn't go out at all then change the PIN to something only you and your sister know.
You might want to consider power of attorney and ensuring the chequebooks are in a known place as well?
Unusual would be a sudden £2000 in New York, not an extra £50 at the Co-Op.
Change PIN, don't give brother card. If your mum doesn't go out at all then change the PIN to something only you and your sister know.
You might want to consider power of attorney and ensuring the chequebooks are in a known place as well?
Vaud said:
What TooMany2cvs said. The bank have no responsibility. What is the unusual pattern that they should have spotted? regular cash withdrawals of roughly the same amount?
Unusual would be a sudden £2000 in New York, not an extra £50 at the Co-Op.
Change PIN, don't give brother card. If your mum doesn't go out at all then change the PIN to something only you and your sister know.
You might want to consider power of attorney and ensuring the chequebooks are in a known place as well?
Irregular activity to me meant exactly what went on. She drew cash out at the bank and maybe once or twice a month we drew £100 out at the ATM. But in August it was;Unusual would be a sudden £2000 in New York, not an extra £50 at the Co-Op.
Change PIN, don't give brother card. If your mum doesn't go out at all then change the PIN to something only you and your sister know.
You might want to consider power of attorney and ensuring the chequebooks are in a known place as well?
1st £300
7th £300
10th £300
15th £200
20th £300
21st £300
22nd £300
24th £450
26th £200
29th £300
These were all at PIN machines. Something should have flagged up. It's clear the account was being emptied.
As said before though, we accept the bank was not to blame for our brother's actions.
I'll raise POA with my sister.
in someone thats 79 - thats excessive activity and pin or not should have been red-flagged at some point - especially if she doesn't have a strong history of high levels of cash withdrawals across the previous months - or a significant incoming credit that could offset said spending.
No one ever wants to press charges against family but if he won't admit it, it may be the best way forward - it'll destroy the family relationship but I think thats gone now too.
I would also be concerned about any jewellery she may have (and small valuables) that may have been removed and sold too if he really is in the mire financially.
No one ever wants to press charges against family but if he won't admit it, it may be the best way forward - it'll destroy the family relationship but I think thats gone now too.
I would also be concerned about any jewellery she may have (and small valuables) that may have been removed and sold too if he really is in the mire financially.
Fastchas said:
Irregular activity to me meant exactly what went on. She drew cash out at the bank and maybe once or twice a month we drew £100 out at the ATM. But in August it was;
1st £300
7th £300
10th £300
15th £200
20th £300
21st £300
22nd £300
24th £450
26th £200
29th £300
These were all at PIN machines. Something should have flagged up. It's clear the account was being emptied.
As said before though, we accept the bank was not to blame for our brother's actions.
I'll raise POA with my sister.
But that is a pattern, and so regular activity.1st £300
7th £300
10th £300
15th £200
20th £300
21st £300
22nd £300
24th £450
26th £200
29th £300
These were all at PIN machines. Something should have flagged up. It's clear the account was being emptied.
As said before though, we accept the bank was not to blame for our brother's actions.
I'll raise POA with my sister.
I understand your annoyance with the bank, but if this has been going on for years then the systems can't detect it as there would be too many false positives. The pattern has created a "norm" behaviour and so these aren't a substantial deviation from the norm.
Deviations are not just amount based, they can also be
- Location
- Product type
- Time
Which creates a lot of data to map anomalous behaviour from, but the bank systems are cruder than that at an account level.
Regular ATM use within the above three parameters would stay within the triggers.
Account skimming over the long term is very hard for banks to spot automatically as there is a responsibility on the account holder to do their own checks as well and to control use of the bank's card.
I feel for the OP's mum, but the bank's hands are a bit tied when the account holder disperses control of the account.
As I noted, power of attorney, or creating a special account for just the brother and sister (and just keep it topped up with electronic transfers) might be a way to go.
Also OP if you want to keep an eye on things, you could install the banking app and keep a daily spot on transactions.
Cold said:
Police are awesome as usual. 
Funny enough, I was driving to badminton with my son last night and saw a group of youths, three on cycles. As one cyclist passed a parked car he kicked the wing mirror, smashing it. I overtook them and hung around, calling the police. i reported the criminal damage and said I'm currently following the group and gave the control room the street names. The operator told me to cease following them and they'll despatch a car. I told them they're now outside the Co-Op, I'll hang around until a car gets here. 'No sir, please stop following, we'll get a car out'Me - "But how will you know it's the right gang of kids? Oh, Never mind."
30 mins later I had a call on my mobile. it was the police asking where was I and could I still see them?
me- "Nah, I'm at badminton, mate !"
These cases are always so sad - what's worse is that if the thief had actually asked their mother/granny/whichever family member they are stealing from for a loan of the money because they were in trouble then the elderly family member in question would have just lent them the money.
Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff