Boat ownership/rental schemes
Discussion
I've been looking at boat ownership and I'm put off because of the running costs combined with the depreciation of the more affordable cruising yachts is pretty steep. Buying a secondhand cruiser is like buying a high mileage Ferrari from the early 80s,
full of expensive risk.
Instead I've looked at a combined ownership/rental scheme like this one.
Basic details are:
£99k down (or you could borrow the money for the boat with a marine mortgage and a 30% deposit)
Boat in service for 6 years in the Med
Can take up to 12 weeks sailing time anywhere they have a boat the same size or smaller (includes the Caribbean, Indian Ocean, etc.) for the cost of the flights and a cleaning cost at the end of the holiday for ~£300
All insurance, mooring, and running costs are paid
Seems to be a GFV of £44k after the ownership period, so approx. cost of £900 per week of holiday plus flights, assuming you can take all 12 weeks, which I would, this is would be less than half the actual cost assuming 2 months spent in Caribbean per year and a month in the Med. At the end of the deal I'd simply renew with a new boat having saved the £900 per week of holiday in the mean time.
What is the catch with this sort of scheme apart from tying up £99k for 6 years? It reads just like a timeshare and I'm wary because of this. However running a boat yourself is a f
king pain the arse and this is rather attractive for when I have retired.
Assuming I bought the boat outright and ran it myself I'd have to budget ~10% of purchase price for mooring, running and servicing costs, more if I was hiring it out. Granted I'd likely build up a surplus in the first couple of years, but it'll need new sails, out of water servicing, etc. as it approaches the 3 to 4 year mark. I'd also be stuck to one region unless I paid to have somebody sail the boat to the destination, which also adds significant wear and tear due to the excessive mileage.
full of expensive risk.
Instead I've looked at a combined ownership/rental scheme like this one.
Basic details are:
£99k down (or you could borrow the money for the boat with a marine mortgage and a 30% deposit)
Boat in service for 6 years in the Med
Can take up to 12 weeks sailing time anywhere they have a boat the same size or smaller (includes the Caribbean, Indian Ocean, etc.) for the cost of the flights and a cleaning cost at the end of the holiday for ~£300
All insurance, mooring, and running costs are paid
Seems to be a GFV of £44k after the ownership period, so approx. cost of £900 per week of holiday plus flights, assuming you can take all 12 weeks, which I would, this is would be less than half the actual cost assuming 2 months spent in Caribbean per year and a month in the Med. At the end of the deal I'd simply renew with a new boat having saved the £900 per week of holiday in the mean time.
What is the catch with this sort of scheme apart from tying up £99k for 6 years? It reads just like a timeshare and I'm wary because of this. However running a boat yourself is a f
king pain the arse and this is rather attractive for when I have retired.Assuming I bought the boat outright and ran it myself I'd have to budget ~10% of purchase price for mooring, running and servicing costs, more if I was hiring it out. Granted I'd likely build up a surplus in the first couple of years, but it'll need new sails, out of water servicing, etc. as it approaches the 3 to 4 year mark. I'd also be stuck to one region unless I paid to have somebody sail the boat to the destination, which also adds significant wear and tear due to the excessive mileage.
My observation as a user of Sunsail boats is that they get a very hard life and your boat might be quite tatty after 6 years...
What about one of the more specialist member/owner schemes? I'm a member of Pure Latitude, although not an owner, and all the boats, however old, are immaculate and very well maintained. The owner of PL is a real enthusiast and often sails with members (and skis!).
I suspect its more expensive, but you'd get a wider choice of boats and more boat left at the end!
What about one of the more specialist member/owner schemes? I'm a member of Pure Latitude, although not an owner, and all the boats, however old, are immaculate and very well maintained. The owner of PL is a real enthusiast and often sails with members (and skis!).
I suspect its more expensive, but you'd get a wider choice of boats and more boat left at the end!
What's access to the best boats like, what do current members think of it?
My in-laws are getting rid of rci timeshare thing as while its great on paper in real life the better properties are like tickets for the best gigs, people sit up online waiting for dates to go live and snatch them up in moments.
My in-laws are getting rid of rci timeshare thing as while its great on paper in real life the better properties are like tickets for the best gigs, people sit up online waiting for dates to go live and snatch them up in moments.
timbo999 said:
My observation as a user of Sunsail boats is that they get a very hard life and your boat might be quite tatty after 6 years...
What about one of the more specialist member/owner schemes? I'm a member of Pure Latitude, although not an owner, and all the boats, however old, are immaculate and very well maintained. The owner of PL is a real enthusiast and often sails with members (and skis!).
I suspect its more expensive, but you'd get a wider choice of boats and more boat left at the end!
As long as the payment back at the end is truly guaranteed so I don't have to worry about actual resale value I'm not bothered about the end state of the boat as it'd be swapped straight for a new one. I can also upgrade to something bigger or a cat if I need to, but at a cost.What about one of the more specialist member/owner schemes? I'm a member of Pure Latitude, although not an owner, and all the boats, however old, are immaculate and very well maintained. The owner of PL is a real enthusiast and often sails with members (and skis!).
I suspect its more expensive, but you'd get a wider choice of boats and more boat left at the end!
Pure Latitude look interesting, I like the lack of having to put down the money upfront but it works out more expensive for the same number of weeks of holiday as Sunsail if you can max out the 12 weeks.
I'm certainly interested in the scheme in the short term though, 10 to 14 days would be my sweet spot at present.
Do they have a stand at the Southampton Boat Show?
hairyben said:
What's access to the best boats like, what do current members think of it?
Same availability as a normal customer, so no problem if booking out of season even last minute, in season needs long term booking and only 6 weeks can be used for long term bookings. However I'd not really want to sail inside school holidays so it shouldn't be a problem. You can book up to a month for a single holiday, so I'd likely do the Carribbean for a month either side of Christmas, then the Med for two weeks, once before and once after the six weeks school holidays.PL are almost certainly going to be at Southampton, but if you give them a ring they will invite you down to the Hamble base and you can look round the boats and get a feel of the organisation and enthusiasm. I've been a member for 3 years now and have had some memorable sails out of Hamble!
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
The appeal of having a boat and the wonderful ability to have 12 weeks a year to play on it, must partly be down tot he fact that you can just head to the airport with hand luggage and step aboard to all of your own things.
In theory, yes, but I suspect in practice the reality of owning a boat at a distance is that you spend the first 2-3 days of every holiday fixing things. Whilst Sunsail doesn't have the reputation of the best-maintained boats, you have a little more confidence that she will be in 'sail-away' condition when you turn up.NickCQ said:
In theory, yes, but I suspect in practice the reality of owning a boat at a distance is that you spend the first 2-3 days of every holiday fixing things. Whilst Sunsail doesn't have the reputation of the best-maintained boats, you have a little more confidence that she will be in 'sail-away' condition when you turn up.
Exactly, and you also have somebody on call, usually 24 hours a day if you do have any issues. Remotely maintaining a boat you don't live aboard the majority of the time or have a full time crew on is painful, you need to have local people you trust to look after the boat and prep it, and obviously this also adds significantly to costs if you want the same turn key service a good charter provides.I'm not bothered about having my "own" boat, least not at this price level. Everything I want when I'm on the boat fits into hand luggage, even Sunsail provide everything else I would want or I can hire it locally. We are down with backpacking and travelling light these days.
A big lottery money win would see me purchasing a Discovery or a Swan and living on it ~6 months a year sailing around the world, but that is an order of magnitude more money to do it both up front and per year in a good level of comfort. For this I'd want my own quality stuff on board for sure.
tankplanker said:
A big lottery money win would see me purchasing a Discovery or a Swan and living on it ~6 months a year sailing around the world
It's sad - I imagine a few months ago you would have had Oyster on that list as well. I wouldn't trust the build quality of the recent ones given everything that's emerged about Polina Star.NickCQ said:
It's sad - I imagine a few months ago you would have had Oyster on that list as well. I wouldn't trust the build quality of the recent ones given everything that's emerged about Polina Star.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I assume OP you have chartered with 'them' already ? Have you looked at regional outfits who all offer similar ?
I used E.G.G and Portway in Turkey and make it all a bit more personable and nicer boats...
Yes I have, but not enough yet to be sure they are worth my money. Current plan is another run in Corfu this year, Italy next year, and BVI the year after. By that point we should almost be ready to make a decision. But we are going to the Boat Show this year and will be making our mind up if we want to try somebody else.I used E.G.G and Portway in Turkey and make it all a bit more personable and nicer boats...
Their boats are ok if you stick to the newer models. They are what I would call furnished by Ikea, look decent enough for a few years but unlikely to see decades of use. They are your typical fat wallowly, safe to sail cruiser.
Anybody we do choose to go down this route has to offer a good range of locations worldwide, it is hard to look past their breath of locations.
Till we retire we can't spend more than 2 weeks a year on the boat, so we will stick with charters or some sort of membership scheme. So we have greater flexability.
NickCQ said:
It's sad - I imagine a few months ago you would have had Oyster on that list as well. I wouldn't trust the build quality of the recent ones given everything that's emerged about Polina Star.
More than likely, but I've always fancied a Swan if I was buying something to really enjoy just sailing and living on. I'd still probably end up with the Discovery as its a big dependanable boat that reminds me a lot of stereotypical Volvo cars. Also helps that the Discovery is setup to properly to run short handed.I'm not a fan of the layout on the Amel, the layout seems setup like a motor cruiser and the cockpit seems cramped because of it. End result is the Amel feels smaller than its length would suggest it should be.
I'd want a Discovery 55 or 58, both are the upper limit of what I can short hand with just the two of us, although I'd take on some (free) crew for any real distance. Its a balance between what we can sail by ourselves vs. space. A Swan 115 would be the ideal but that needs a full time support crew while in the boat, and is what, £8m to buy in a good spec? Just plain out of reach unless you get that mega Euro millions payout let alone a good Lottery win.
This month's Yachting Monthly has a good couple of articles on living aboard on a budget and on second hand cruisers for ~£60k. With budgeting about £20k for running costs for the first year to sort out any niggles/bring the boat back up to spec for the first year and I'm back to sitting close to the £99k needed for the Sunsail deal...
I'd want a Discovery 55 or 58, both are the upper limit of what I can short hand with just the two of us, although I'd take on some (free) crew for any real distance. Its a balance between what we can sail by ourselves vs. space. A Swan 115 would be the ideal but that needs a full time support crew while in the boat, and is what, £8m to buy in a good spec? Just plain out of reach unless you get that mega Euro millions payout let alone a good Lottery win.
This month's Yachting Monthly has a good couple of articles on living aboard on a budget and on second hand cruisers for ~£60k. With budgeting about £20k for running costs for the first year to sort out any niggles/bring the boat back up to spec for the first year and I'm back to sitting close to the £99k needed for the Sunsail deal...
I thought only taking the boat out of the water 5 times in 12 years for the mileage they covered was more risk than I'd want, but they seem to be fine with that. I guess the daily maintenance helped with that, but more work than I'd want to be doing.
The couple with a young child surviving on a budget of £600 a month was really scary. They seem like they are one big problem with the boat away from disaster.
The couple with a young child surviving on a budget of £600 a month was really scary. They seem like they are one big problem with the boat away from disaster.
tankplanker said:
As long as the payment back at the end is truly guaranteed
That's the bit that needs careful thought - how many times do we see other alternate investment schemes where there's a guaranteed buyout after a certain period, and people are quick to point out that the guarantee may be worthless?Not a specific comment, by the way, just a general one about buy-back guarantees.
My business runs such Boat ownership schemes (www.nisosyachtcharter.com), but coming from a different angle to the Sunsail / Navigare / Kiriacoulis schemes out there. Our boat owners are people, who want to own a boat in Greece, and have varying levels of input into the management of the boat. Some of our owners even come out in the winter to get stuck in and help out at Boat shows etc. They don't want the timeshare option, offered by the above companies, but want their boat well looked after and they want to sail on their own boat throughout the season and have the kit they want on it, but don't want the day to day hassle of looking after their boat (especially difficult when overseas) nor the annual sunk costs of maintenance, insurance, mooring fees etc. It is a much more personal offering and ensures that the owners have a hassle free ownership/holiday experience. Plus you can buy the boat VAT free and only pay a reduced VAT amount in the future which is very attractive. We also run boats much longer than the large companies, who make their money on the financing of boats, with our boats typically running commercially for 8 to 10 years.
OP - by the sound of things, you would be better suited to one of the schemes offered by the big companies, in that you just want guaranteed returns, a guaranteed buy back and the ability to use any boat from a different base around the world. Also the condition of the boat at the end of the term is not an issue. I do question the need for such schemes though - and indeed it may be better to just charter when and where you want to without putting down a big chunk of money.
One thing I would be sure to be clear on is the ownership of the boat whilst it is being operated. Who actually owns the boat, and what guarantees do you have over security once you have paid over your hard earned cash?
In our scheme, we set up a Greek VAT registered business for the owner, which actually owns the boat from day one. So if anything were to happen to my business, then the boat is not at risk. Look into it carefully.
Feel free to contact me if you want any further information or to sense check any schemes you are looking at.
OP - by the sound of things, you would be better suited to one of the schemes offered by the big companies, in that you just want guaranteed returns, a guaranteed buy back and the ability to use any boat from a different base around the world. Also the condition of the boat at the end of the term is not an issue. I do question the need for such schemes though - and indeed it may be better to just charter when and where you want to without putting down a big chunk of money.
One thing I would be sure to be clear on is the ownership of the boat whilst it is being operated. Who actually owns the boat, and what guarantees do you have over security once you have paid over your hard earned cash?
In our scheme, we set up a Greek VAT registered business for the owner, which actually owns the boat from day one. So if anything were to happen to my business, then the boat is not at risk. Look into it carefully.
Feel free to contact me if you want any further information or to sense check any schemes you are looking at.
Interestingly all of our owners have at some point owned boats in the UK and realised that they just don't get the usage they anticipated or vastly under estimate the cost and time required to keep a boat in good condition. Also a charter boat that is well maintained is probably the best sort of boat you can buy. Continuous use and maintenance/cleaning is vital to keep a boat in good order. Nothing worse for a boat than sitting in a marina doing nothing for weeks on end!!
Our owners need to have a boat in their life (there are a surprising number of people like that!) and this way is a good way of doing it. You're not going to make money out of it, but it is a lot cheaper and much less hassle than having a private boat.
Our owners need to have a boat in their life (there are a surprising number of people like that!) and this way is a good way of doing it. You're not going to make money out of it, but it is a lot cheaper and much less hassle than having a private boat.
I'm in complete agreement that it makes more sense to have somebody else manage the boat for you if you aren't on the boat the majority of the time.
Its the details I'm not sure on with the Sunsail style agreement, if they are over promising. However the range of locations they offer is really attractive. I just couldn't commit to a single region as I know we'd get bored.
Cost wise it works out significantly cheaper than booking 12 weeks a year of standalone charters. It means we can sail for 12 weeks when we would have been able to only afford 4-6 weeks depending on where we went. Granted I'd have the cash tied up, but if Sunsail are being 100% transparent about the details that cash will be there for when we stop sailing.
Its the details I'm not sure on with the Sunsail style agreement, if they are over promising. However the range of locations they offer is really attractive. I just couldn't commit to a single region as I know we'd get bored.
Cost wise it works out significantly cheaper than booking 12 weeks a year of standalone charters. It means we can sail for 12 weeks when we would have been able to only afford 4-6 weeks depending on where we went. Granted I'd have the cash tied up, but if Sunsail are being 100% transparent about the details that cash will be there for when we stop sailing.
If you can make use of the full entitlement of 12 weeks then superb. Don't the number of weeks you get though vary depending on when, where and size of boat? Ie if you finance a 36 footer, but end up booking a 40ft cat in the BVI, that would account for 4 weeks use of the 36 footer? I haven't looked at the Sunsail scheme recently but that is how it used to work I think?
If you go for a more expensive boat (larger or if you upgrade from a mono to a cat) then you pay the difference.
You pay double weeks if its high season, this seems to be mostly limited to (private) school holidays, which is the exact opposite of when I actually want to go. The main exception is the Caribbean, that I'd be limited to from April to November if I don't want to pay double weeks.
You can rent more than one boat at a time, so two boats would be two weeks per one week of use for example, good if the kids want to come as it means them and their mates can have their own boat. Or they can use my allowance with certain provisos on dates.
You can only book up to six weeks per year long term in advance, and the other six weeks can only be booked with I think 3 months notice. This should be fine for us as we will be going outside of school holidays and can be flexible once we are retired.
You pay double weeks if its high season, this seems to be mostly limited to (private) school holidays, which is the exact opposite of when I actually want to go. The main exception is the Caribbean, that I'd be limited to from April to November if I don't want to pay double weeks.
You can rent more than one boat at a time, so two boats would be two weeks per one week of use for example, good if the kids want to come as it means them and their mates can have their own boat. Or they can use my allowance with certain provisos on dates.
You can only book up to six weeks per year long term in advance, and the other six weeks can only be booked with I think 3 months notice. This should be fine for us as we will be going outside of school holidays and can be flexible once we are retired.
rockin said:
Two useful sayings,
1. If it floats, flies or f***s - rent it, don't buy it.
2. The best days of boat ownership are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.
Two unhelpful cliches.1. If it floats, flies or f***s - rent it, don't buy it.
2. The best days of boat ownership are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.
Boat ownership can be a joy but you need to go into it with your eyes open about how much time and money it will take up.
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