Grandparent scammed for £9k, what can we do?
Discussion
My grandad is 87 and actually still quite clued up and all there, still drives himself around etc
He was scammed a couple of years ago with the Microsoft scam, which involved someone calling him and pretending to be from Microsoft to tell him he had a virus on his computer. He paid £200 odd to fix it, but did it on his credit card so got the money back when the scam was realised.
Unfortunately a couple of weeks ago he had a call from someone pretending to be his bank, to cut a long story short, they said they were from the fraud squad and they noticed some unusual activity on his account. He was quite aware that this could be a scam, so asked them to confirm his details and i think they even confirmed the 3 digits on the back of his card and his current balance. They asked him to go in to his own bank and transfer his funds to a different account to protect them, he sent £9,000, but this is where it gets a bit strange.
The scammers told him not to tell anyone in the branch about it being the fraud squad, so as to not alert anyone in the bank that they were on to them (the scammers said it was someone internally they were trying to catch). But as he had to go in to the branch and the person on the counter made the transfer for him, I would have thought this would have thrown up some red flags, ie the bank has a duty to spot fraud and an 87 year old walking in to transfer a big amount at short notice would set the alarms off for them.
The money was sent to Barclays, which I believe might have been a compromised account and then transferred on elsewhere quickly.
Both his bank and Barclays have said the money isn't recoverable. He's made a formal complaint to his bank and the ombudsmen.
It was discovered the same day by my dad as he'd gone round for his dinner and explained it all to him. My dad immediately called the bank and they said it wasn't anything to do with them and it was a scam. My dad then went round to my grandads the following day because the scammers were due to call back to give him an update or something along those lines, I think they wanted him to transfer more money as there was more in the account. My dad got to his house at 10am and there had already been 10 missed calls from them.
I know ultimately the bank can't be responsible for every possible scenario, but the fact that an old person walked in to transfer a big sum of money which wasn't spotted by the bank has left us all asking if they failed in their efforts to protect him.
Anyone got experiences of something similar?
He was scammed a couple of years ago with the Microsoft scam, which involved someone calling him and pretending to be from Microsoft to tell him he had a virus on his computer. He paid £200 odd to fix it, but did it on his credit card so got the money back when the scam was realised.
Unfortunately a couple of weeks ago he had a call from someone pretending to be his bank, to cut a long story short, they said they were from the fraud squad and they noticed some unusual activity on his account. He was quite aware that this could be a scam, so asked them to confirm his details and i think they even confirmed the 3 digits on the back of his card and his current balance. They asked him to go in to his own bank and transfer his funds to a different account to protect them, he sent £9,000, but this is where it gets a bit strange.
The scammers told him not to tell anyone in the branch about it being the fraud squad, so as to not alert anyone in the bank that they were on to them (the scammers said it was someone internally they were trying to catch). But as he had to go in to the branch and the person on the counter made the transfer for him, I would have thought this would have thrown up some red flags, ie the bank has a duty to spot fraud and an 87 year old walking in to transfer a big amount at short notice would set the alarms off for them.
The money was sent to Barclays, which I believe might have been a compromised account and then transferred on elsewhere quickly.
Both his bank and Barclays have said the money isn't recoverable. He's made a formal complaint to his bank and the ombudsmen.
It was discovered the same day by my dad as he'd gone round for his dinner and explained it all to him. My dad immediately called the bank and they said it wasn't anything to do with them and it was a scam. My dad then went round to my grandads the following day because the scammers were due to call back to give him an update or something along those lines, I think they wanted him to transfer more money as there was more in the account. My dad got to his house at 10am and there had already been 10 missed calls from them.
I know ultimately the bank can't be responsible for every possible scenario, but the fact that an old person walked in to transfer a big sum of money which wasn't spotted by the bank has left us all asking if they failed in their efforts to protect him.
Anyone got experiences of something similar?
Edited by alistair1234 on Thursday 5th April 12:23
Not personally but I remember seeing that scam on TV.
Ultimately the bank isn't liable for the money as the account holder authorised the transfer.
However the only argument you can have is if they have failed in their duty to question why the money is being withdrawn, they have a responsibility to make sure any out of the ordinary trasnfers aren't possibly due to scams.
I seem to remember that the bank didn't refund, they had to go to the financial ombudsman and prove that the bank had failed in adequately checking the reason for the withdrawal, in that circumstance I think they made multiple withdrawals over a few days of a few K and the ombudsman awarded a full refund, interest and something for distress caused. If your Grandad does withdraw large amounts every now and again then it would be hard to prove it's not normal.
Ultimately the bank isn't liable for the money as the account holder authorised the transfer.
However the only argument you can have is if they have failed in their duty to question why the money is being withdrawn, they have a responsibility to make sure any out of the ordinary trasnfers aren't possibly due to scams.
I seem to remember that the bank didn't refund, they had to go to the financial ombudsman and prove that the bank had failed in adequately checking the reason for the withdrawal, in that circumstance I think they made multiple withdrawals over a few days of a few K and the ombudsman awarded a full refund, interest and something for distress caused. If your Grandad does withdraw large amounts every now and again then it would be hard to prove it's not normal.
I transferred some money online this morning with Natwest and before allowing me to proceed it asked me if I'd been asked to send this money by an unsolicited phone call, someone online, etc and if that was the case to contact the bank immediately. With that in mind, I'm amazed an 87yr old was able to walk into the bank and just transfer £9k to a random account with no questions asked especially when there are people on this very forum who have posted that they've been interrogated by bank employees when dealing with large sums!
Oakey said:
With that in mind, I'm amazed an 87yr old was able to walk into the bank and just transfer £9k to a random account with no questions asked especially when there are people on this very forum who have posted that they've been interrogated by bank employees when dealing with large sums!
I think the interrogations are if it's cash.My elderly (but very with it) FiL was caught the other day by "BT" and he's really someone we never thought would fall for this.
Heads up for those keeping an eye on older people - apparently calls in BTs name are at epidemic proportions and people say their old folks panic a bit when it's "BT" and they're told the phone/internet is going to be cut off. I've heard of similar in the past where they're told they're a fairly small amount outstanding on their bill so they hand over their card details, but this current spate seems to be based around internet issues.
He gave them his card details so they could send him a new router. He realised what he'd done and called the bank (NatWest) and there were debits pending for £5K and £9K which the bank stopped.
I signed him up for BT's Call Protect and he hasn't had any spam calls since. I've had 5 in two days, so hopefully it's working although the spammers can keep changing their caller ID.
I had a call yesterday. The person told me she was calling about my TV and she will be able to reduce my (non existent) monthly fee of £7 and get a rebate of overpaid amounts. Clearly a scam but I went along with the call for a short while without giving any information away. I was asked for my bank account details so that they could arrange the overpayment direct! I ended the call.
R.
R.
I think the exact same scam was on TV a few months back.
I have mixed thoughts on it if I'm honest. If my grandad were still around and fell victim to this I'd be mad at the bank. However how many posts do you see on here "Bank wants to know what I'm spending my own money on" so I can see they have to tread carefully.
Regardless of the banks response surely it's a crime?
I have mixed thoughts on it if I'm honest. If my grandad were still around and fell victim to this I'd be mad at the bank. However how many posts do you see on here "Bank wants to know what I'm spending my own money on" so I can see they have to tread carefully.
Regardless of the banks response surely it's a crime?
alistair1234 said:
I know ultimately the bank can't be responsible for every possible scenario, but the fact that an old person walked in to transfer a big sum of money which wasn't spotted by the bank has left us all asking if they failed in their efforts to protect him.
You weren't present at the bank and you don't know what was said. He may well have been questioned about the transfer. Though given that he'd been told not to alert anyone in the branch he might have provided a plausible explanation.I work for a bank and have seen a similar case in almost identical circumstances. The cashier did question the customer (even handing him a leaflet warning about common scams) but he said he was moving funds to an external savings account of his. The bank didn't believe it was liable and the customer was not refunded. I believe the case may be going/have gone to the FOS but I wouldn't expect they'd find the bank liable either.
Sheepshanks said:
I think the interrogations are if it's cash.
My elderly (but very with it) FiL was caught the other day by "BT" and he's really someone we never thought would fall for this.
Heads up for those keeping an eye on older people - apparently calls in BTs name are at epidemic proportions and people say their old folks panic a bit when it's "BT" and they're told the phone/internet is going to be cut off. I've heard of similar in the past where they're told they're a fairly small amount outstanding on their bill so they hand over their card details, but this current spate seems to be based around internet issues.
He gave them his card details so they could send him a new router. He realised what he'd done and called the bank (NatWest) and there were debits pending for £5K and £9K which the bank stopped.
I signed him up for BT's Call Protect and he hasn't had any spam calls since. I've had 5 in two days, so hopefully it's working although the spammers can keep changing their caller ID.
I get these calls from 'BT' all the time, as I work from home I like to entertain myself by keeping them on the phone for as long as possible. My record so far is 30 minutes.My elderly (but very with it) FiL was caught the other day by "BT" and he's really someone we never thought would fall for this.
Heads up for those keeping an eye on older people - apparently calls in BTs name are at epidemic proportions and people say their old folks panic a bit when it's "BT" and they're told the phone/internet is going to be cut off. I've heard of similar in the past where they're told they're a fairly small amount outstanding on their bill so they hand over their card details, but this current spate seems to be based around internet issues.
He gave them his card details so they could send him a new router. He realised what he'd done and called the bank (NatWest) and there were debits pending for £5K and £9K which the bank stopped.
I signed him up for BT's Call Protect and he hasn't had any spam calls since. I've had 5 in two days, so hopefully it's working although the spammers can keep changing their caller ID.
They are always calling from, I guess, either India or Pakistan and it's always about my BT router being 'hacked' (I'm with Virginmedia). They ask you to run Event Viewer in Windows and then make out all the errors that are logged are the problems that need fixing. The last guy asked me if I did online banking then asked who with. When I told him Natwest he asked if I had the card reader to hand (despite telling me they would be fixing things for free).
I go as far as installing TeamViewer or whatever other remote desktop app they want me to install and eventually, after drawing it out for as long as possible, allow them to connect but in 'view mode' only. At which point (and hopefully they're rubbing their hands together with a grin on their face) they're presented with Photoshop and 'f
k off scamming s' across the screen in large font. They get so fking angry, it's amazing. I was in the Post office the other day and overheard a middle aged fairly uneducated farm worker at the counter trying to western union money to his girlfriend in some african place for medical bills??
It appeared he had been sending money for "medical expenses" to africa for his GF/ for a while.
He faffed around for ages with different cards trying to get the cashier to send the money.
It all sounded like he was being taken for a ride.
I was eventually served by another cashier but mentioned that her colleague should be very careful with the chap at the next window as it sounded like he was being duped/conned/scammed.
I left but hope they quizzed him enough to prevent him becoming a victim..
Of course it could all be fine, but it sounded like a classic scam..
It's a typical Pistonheads scenario.
1) Nosy bank bds and all their questions! I want my money to spend on a car/hookers/coke etc
2) Oh bks my old man has lost 10k because the bank didn't ask enough questions.
They can't please or protect us all.
It appeared he had been sending money for "medical expenses" to africa for his GF/ for a while.
He faffed around for ages with different cards trying to get the cashier to send the money.
It all sounded like he was being taken for a ride.
I was eventually served by another cashier but mentioned that her colleague should be very careful with the chap at the next window as it sounded like he was being duped/conned/scammed.
I left but hope they quizzed him enough to prevent him becoming a victim..
Of course it could all be fine, but it sounded like a classic scam..
It's a typical Pistonheads scenario.
1) Nosy bank b
ds and all their questions! I want my money to spend on a car/hookers/coke etc2) Oh b
ks my old man has lost 10k because the bank didn't ask enough questions. They can't please or protect us all.
Oakey said:
Sheepshanks said:
I think the interrogations are if it's cash.
My elderly (but very with it) FiL was caught the other day by "BT" and he's really someone we never thought would fall for this.
Heads up for those keeping an eye on older people - apparently calls in BTs name are at epidemic proportions and people say their old folks panic a bit when it's "BT" and they're told the phone/internet is going to be cut off. I've heard of similar in the past where they're told they're a fairly small amount outstanding on their bill so they hand over their card details, but this current spate seems to be based around internet issues.
He gave them his card details so they could send him a new router. He realised what he'd done and called the bank (NatWest) and there were debits pending for £5K and £9K which the bank stopped.
I signed him up for BT's Call Protect and he hasn't had any spam calls since. I've had 5 in two days, so hopefully it's working although the spammers can keep changing their caller ID.
I get these calls from 'BT' all the time, as I work from home I like to entertain myself by keeping them on the phone for as long as possible. My record so far is 30 minutes.My elderly (but very with it) FiL was caught the other day by "BT" and he's really someone we never thought would fall for this.
Heads up for those keeping an eye on older people - apparently calls in BTs name are at epidemic proportions and people say their old folks panic a bit when it's "BT" and they're told the phone/internet is going to be cut off. I've heard of similar in the past where they're told they're a fairly small amount outstanding on their bill so they hand over their card details, but this current spate seems to be based around internet issues.
He gave them his card details so they could send him a new router. He realised what he'd done and called the bank (NatWest) and there were debits pending for £5K and £9K which the bank stopped.
I signed him up for BT's Call Protect and he hasn't had any spam calls since. I've had 5 in two days, so hopefully it's working although the spammers can keep changing their caller ID.
They are always calling from, I guess, either India or Pakistan and it's always about my BT router being 'hacked' (I'm with Virginmedia). They ask you to run Event Viewer in Windows and then make out all the errors that are logged are the problems that need fixing. The last guy asked me if I did online banking then asked who with. When I told him Natwest he asked if I had the card reader to hand (despite telling me they would be fixing things for free).
I go as far as installing TeamViewer or whatever other remote desktop app they want me to install and eventually, after drawing it out for as long as possible, allow them to connect but in 'view mode' only. At which point (and hopefully they're rubbing their hands together with a grin on their face) they're presented with Photoshop and 'f
k off scamming s' across the screen in large font. They get so fking angry, it's amazing. I regularly play this Sport! They do get upset!!!
I treat it as charity work as while i have them tied up with me they cant scam other less savvy folk.
On the one hand we worry that our every movement is being tracked and we should all go cash-only to stop Big Brother seeing our digital footprints, but in the other when someone is conned out of their money in a bank transfer, which one would imagine leaves a clear path to the destination account, which would have had to be opened in a person's name, who would thus be known to the recipient bank... It's gone, with no recourse. 
I mean, why aren't we all doing this if it's so easy to get away with it?!
I mean, why aren't we all doing this if it's so easy to get away with it?!
romeogolf said:
On the one hand we worry that our every movement is being tracked and we should all go cash-only to stop Big Brother seeing our digital footprints, but in the other when someone is conned out of their money in a bank transfer, which one would imagine leaves a clear path to the destination account, which would have had to be opened in a person's name, who would thus be known to the recipient bank... It's gone, with no recourse.
Fraudsters don't use accounts in their own names. They takeover over accounts (using online banking details, card details) and convince the vulnerable to receive and withdraw stolen funds for them.My elderly neighbour was scammed this way, the 'police' even sent a (genuine) minicab to collect him and take him to the bank to withdraw the cash.
The 'courier' sent later that day (nobody found out who by) to collect the large amount of cash from him was later caught, but the trail ended with the gang member who collected the cash, and the bank wouldn't admit any liability.
I do know all the circumstances and in my opinion the bank were wrong to have handed over such a large amount of cash to somebody who had NEVER withdrawn any amount greater than his state pension from that branch.
The 'courier' sent later that day (nobody found out who by) to collect the large amount of cash from him was later caught, but the trail ended with the gang member who collected the cash, and the bank wouldn't admit any liability.
I do know all the circumstances and in my opinion the bank were wrong to have handed over such a large amount of cash to somebody who had NEVER withdrawn any amount greater than his state pension from that branch.
My granddad got scammed for £40k+
Police didn't give a st.
My parents now have to co-sign on any of his accounts for payments over £200. Bank manager was helpful but sketchy, I think the bank manager was up to something too, my granddad always went on about 'share deals' he was getting but I think the bank manager was padding commission or something by being less than honest.
Police didn't give a s
t.My parents now have to co-sign on any of his accounts for payments over £200. Bank manager was helpful but sketchy, I think the bank manager was up to something too, my granddad always went on about 'share deals' he was getting but I think the bank manager was padding commission or something by being less than honest.
The thing that annoys me is the police have absolutely no interest in investigating these crimes. How hard can it be to trace account to account to eventually where cash is extracted? If cash is being drawn from ATMs or Western Union-type shops then most have CCTV.
The reason this type of crime is so prevalent is because the risk of being caught is minute.
The reason this type of crime is so prevalent is because the risk of being caught is minute.
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