H&L Share Trading GIA - Tax Centre question re cgt ...
Discussion
I thought I'd have a look at what my CGT bill is likely to be for the current fy. I have two GIA accounts as below:
Trading 212 - It is easy to export a csv of all transactions. The "result" column is basically how much you made/lost from each share sale which takes account of what you paid for a share. The costs of buying the shares is then given in further columns for SDRT, fees, currency exchange etc. So for HMRC tax return it's really easy to sum the "result" column less the various costs column to arrive at the capital gain for the year. very easy.
H&L - I am struggling with H&L. They have a "Tax Centre" but all that does it let you export a csv of all transactions. There is no "result" as there is with T212 (i.e. how much you actually made or lost on each sale. Nor is there any columns with costs of trading like commission, currency, sdrt etc. As far as I can see to get the actual gain and costs of trading it's going to be a case of going through every single contract note PDF and pull out these costs, and work out actual profit/loss per trade myself manually. Surely I must be missing something? Any idea what I am doing wrong surely there must be an easy way?
Trading 212 - It is easy to export a csv of all transactions. The "result" column is basically how much you made/lost from each share sale which takes account of what you paid for a share. The costs of buying the shares is then given in further columns for SDRT, fees, currency exchange etc. So for HMRC tax return it's really easy to sum the "result" column less the various costs column to arrive at the capital gain for the year. very easy.
H&L - I am struggling with H&L. They have a "Tax Centre" but all that does it let you export a csv of all transactions. There is no "result" as there is with T212 (i.e. how much you actually made or lost on each sale. Nor is there any columns with costs of trading like commission, currency, sdrt etc. As far as I can see to get the actual gain and costs of trading it's going to be a case of going through every single contract note PDF and pull out these costs, and work out actual profit/loss per trade myself manually. Surely I must be missing something? Any idea what I am doing wrong surely there must be an easy way?
CGT returns, where required, are rarely straightforward. However, I've not seen a 212 report and would be pleasantly surprised if it covers all the HMRC requirements. As you know, a CGT summary page has to be completed and also backed up by fully detailed calculations.
Most particularly, CGT gets awkward when you sell something from a "pool" that has been assembled over time. See the joyous guidance on this link, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/shares-...
For many people the best way to keep CGT manageable is to operate three practices in trandem,
The alternative is to pay an accountant to do the sums for you. He/she will still need to be provided with a mass of information about your detailed transaction history.
Most particularly, CGT gets awkward when you sell something from a "pool" that has been assembled over time. See the joyous guidance on this link, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/shares-...
For many people the best way to keep CGT manageable is to operate three practices in trandem,
- Wher practicable, keep proceeds of sale under £49,200 (the reporting threshold) AND gains under £12,300 (the reporting and tax tax threshold),
- Avoid more than one purchase of a particular investment. You can then sell as often as you like and will always know the purchase date and cost.
- Avoid having to claim losses! And if you do, try to make sure you have a good clean-up of the whole portfolio whilst you're about it.
The alternative is to pay an accountant to do the sums for you. He/she will still need to be provided with a mass of information about your detailed transaction history.
It seems that very few institutions can keep a running record of your current CGT position even for funds, let alone shares. I've asked Vanguard & they can't tell me & L&G were even worse; the reply said that my CGT position was the value now minus the value on April 6th 2020, ie just the gain in this tax year. I'm hoping the CGT certificate they should be supplying after the end of the tax year is more accurate than that. IM can actually tell you realised & unrealised gains & I think the Fidelity platform does as well.
You'll just have to plug the transactions into Excel & work it out.
You'll just have to plug the transactions into Excel & work it out.
MikeStroud said:
I thought I'd have a look at what my CGT bill is likely to be for the current fy. I have two GIA accounts as below:
Trading 212 - It is easy to export a csv of all transactions. The "result" column is basically how much you made/lost from each share sale which takes account of what you paid for a share. The costs of buying the shares is then given in further columns for SDRT, fees, currency exchange etc. So for HMRC tax return it's really easy to sum the "result" column less the various costs column to arrive at the capital gain for the year. very easy.
H&L - I am struggling with H&L. They have a "Tax Centre" but all that does it let you export a csv of all transactions. There is no "result" as there is with T212 (i.e. how much you actually made or lost on each sale. Nor is there any columns with costs of trading like commission, currency, sdrt etc. As far as I can see to get the actual gain and costs of trading it's going to be a case of going through every single contract note PDF and pull out these costs, and work out actual profit/loss per trade myself manually. Surely I must be missing something? Any idea what I am doing wrong surely there must be an easy way?
I can export all transaction up to 12m at a time.Trading 212 - It is easy to export a csv of all transactions. The "result" column is basically how much you made/lost from each share sale which takes account of what you paid for a share. The costs of buying the shares is then given in further columns for SDRT, fees, currency exchange etc. So for HMRC tax return it's really easy to sum the "result" column less the various costs column to arrive at the capital gain for the year. very easy.
H&L - I am struggling with H&L. They have a "Tax Centre" but all that does it let you export a csv of all transactions. There is no "result" as there is with T212 (i.e. how much you actually made or lost on each sale. Nor is there any columns with costs of trading like commission, currency, sdrt etc. As far as I can see to get the actual gain and costs of trading it's going to be a case of going through every single contract note PDF and pull out these costs, and work out actual profit/loss per trade myself manually. Surely I must be missing something? Any idea what I am doing wrong surely there must be an easy way?
Out that in a spreadsheet and filter starting S or B.
Total sums can then be divided into what you have bought and what you have sold.
Next year trade via ISA and spread betting.
Meeten-5dulx said:
I can export all transaction up to 12m at a time.
Out that in a spreadsheet and filter starting S or B.
Total sums can then be divided into what you have bought and what you have sold.
Next year trade via ISA and spread betting.
How does that help you if you sell a share you bought 13 months ago, or one where you have bought the same share in two different lots? The CGT calculations for share transactions can be complex.Out that in a spreadsheet and filter starting S or B.
Total sums can then be divided into what you have bought and what you have sold.
Next year trade via ISA and spread betting.
rockin said:
CGT returns, where required, are rarely straightforward. However, I've not seen a 212 report and would be pleasantly surprised if it covers all the HMRC requirements. As you know, a CGT summary page has to be completed and also backed up by fully detailed calculations.
Most particularly, CGT gets awkward when you sell something from a "pool" that has been assembled over time. See the joyous guidance on this link, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/shares-...
For many people the best way to keep CGT manageable is to operate three practices in trandem,
The alternative is to pay an accountant to do the sums for you. He/she will still need to be provided with a mass of information about your detailed transaction history.
In the beginning I was only using T212 for buying/selling and I'm happy the reports from T212 do provide all the detail as well as the ability to sum a few columns to get the numbers required for the HMRC cgt summary. I've worked through a few worked examples and am happy that using T212's report I can list all my gains and losses as well as allowable costs etc, in fact I'd say it's very easy. The gains seem to correctly tie back to the section 104 pool utilisation correctly too.Most particularly, CGT gets awkward when you sell something from a "pool" that has been assembled over time. See the joyous guidance on this link, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/shares-...
For many people the best way to keep CGT manageable is to operate three practices in trandem,
- Wher practicable, keep proceeds of sale under £49,200 (the reporting threshold) AND gains under £12,300 (the reporting and tax tax threshold),
- Avoid more than one purchase of a particular investment. You can then sell as often as you like and will always know the purchase date and cost.
- Avoid having to claim losses! And if you do, try to make sure you have a good clean-up of the whole portfolio whilst you're about it.
The alternative is to pay an accountant to do the sums for you. He/she will still need to be provided with a mass of information about your detailed transaction history.
I do have an accountant who does my tax returns but I normally do the "book keeping" and give them the numbers then they weave their tax saving magic and submit the return for me. For T212 I can give them the numbers and the evidence quite easily.
My problem is with HL. For each share I have bought in and out many times as well as averaged up/down etc. But the HL report only seems to list every transaction and it's total value. For each transaction it doesn't give you the stamp duty, currency exchange cost, commission etc associated with it. In fact it doesn't even say whether the transaction is a sale or a buy albeit you can deduce that from an S or B prior to the transaction number.
As far as I can see for HL to get the fees you have to open every contract note you've ever received, and to check the gain I'll have to create a history for each share as to when each was bought and sold and the profit/loss each time against the section 104 pool.... a huge undertaking. It's made more complicated by the fact my HL account still has active shares in it for holdings where I need to declare a gain.
I don't want to give my accountant about 100 contract notes because (1) I like to understand these things myself and (2) there must be an easier way in HL than this that I am missing! and (3) if the accountant has to plough through all this detail their bill will be lots more!
Mr Pointy said:
It seems that very few institutions can keep a running record of your current CGT position even for funds, let alone shares. I've asked Vanguard & they can't tell me & L&G were even worse; the reply said that my CGT position was the value now minus the value on April 6th 2020, ie just the gain in this tax year. I'm hoping the CGT certificate they should be supplying after the end of the tax year is more accurate than that. IM can actually tell you realised & unrealised gains & I think the Fidelity platform does as well.
You'll just have to plug the transactions into Excel & work it out.
"the reply said that my CGT position was the value now minus the value on April 6th 2020, ie just the gain in this tax year." <<< That surely can't be right? Surely you only pay cgt on a gain you have realised by selling? For example if my portfolio on 6/4/20 was £100k and on 5/4/21 was valued at £200k then if I have not sold anything at all then surely there is no cgt to pay?You'll just have to plug the transactions into Excel & work it out.
"You'll just have to plug the transactions into Excel & work it out" <<< I think that is what it is coming to! Can't believe HL's report is so rubbish compared to T212's.
Meeten-5dulx said:
I can export all transaction up to 12m at a time.
Out that in a spreadsheet and filter starting S or B.
Total sums can then be divided into what you have bought and what you have sold.
Next year trade via ISA and spread betting.
Yeah I can do that export no problem, but for each transaction there is no column showing you fees paid, stamp duty paid, currency costs etc which are allowable fees. To get all those fees you then have to get the contract note up and record them... I have hundreds of them :-( The T212 report has columns listing al these fees for each transaction, surely HL must somewhere too? That's what I'm missing.Out that in a spreadsheet and filter starting S or B.
Total sums can then be divided into what you have bought and what you have sold.
Next year trade via ISA and spread betting.
The HL report doesn't give the gain like the T212 report does either so I can see endless faffing with section 104 pool allocation etc etc.
Big lesson learnt here! I'm already max'd out on ISA and SIPP so having to use a gia for all the myriad of daily trades. My T212 gia is fine as the report is good the issue is with the HL gia as the report is hopeless as far as I can see.
MikeStroud said:
Mr Pointy said:
the reply said that my CGT position was the value now minus the value on April 6th 2020, ie just the gain in this tax year.
That surely can't be right? Surely you only pay cgt on a gain you have realised by selling? For example if my portfolio on 6/4/20 was £100k and on 5/4/21 was valued at £200k then if I have not sold anything at all then surely there is no cgt to pay?Yes it's all a faff! I doubt any of these brokers can provide fully compliant reporting for CGT.
I have a belt & braces approach:-
1. I maintain a small A5 hard copy notebook(s) in which I record every trade (both in taxed and non-taxed accounts), taken from the contract notes, but recording the net purchase and sale costs, after commissions, stamp duty etc.
2. For taxable accounts, these I then enter manually into a basic Excel spreadsheet, with all trades for one security grouped together. Again, best to do this on the day the contract note is received.
3. Then at the end of each tax year, for each sale I show the sale proceeds and underlying 'pooled' purchase costs.
4. I find broker statements are pretty good for dividend income.
I do still employ an accountant just for my self-assessment returns. I keep telling myself I should be able to manage my dealings with HMRC myself, but he's good with unquoted stuff and negligible value claims, optimal allocation of EIS reliefs etc. Essentially I send him 3. above to compile the CGT pages for the tax return.
As others have mentioned - avoid 'dividend re-investment units' like the plague and possibly 'accumulation units' also (but then I avoid 'funds' entirely). And although I will commonly 'scale in'; to a stock until I reach my desired position, it simplifies matters to dispose of the stock entirely within one tax year.
A broader question: 2020-21 was the first year where I've made direct investment in overseas stocks. My understanding of HMRC guidance is that for CGT purposes you convert say $ purchase/sale costs into £ on the day of the transaction, so wrapping up any currency gain/loss into the overall gain/loss. The one broker I use for this has anyway converted every transaction into my home currency (£). However, I'm now about to set up a $ and € float within the account (to minimise FX charges) but I believe the same rules apply. It also appears from the guidance that any currency gains/losses on such a non-Sterling float do not enter into the CGT computation, even if I were to 'crystallise' such gain/loss by converting everything back to £. I gather the same principle applies to folk who hold foreign property and a foreign bank account for operating expenses. If any of the tax gurus feel I've misunderstood, please say!
I have a belt & braces approach:-
1. I maintain a small A5 hard copy notebook(s) in which I record every trade (both in taxed and non-taxed accounts), taken from the contract notes, but recording the net purchase and sale costs, after commissions, stamp duty etc.
2. For taxable accounts, these I then enter manually into a basic Excel spreadsheet, with all trades for one security grouped together. Again, best to do this on the day the contract note is received.
3. Then at the end of each tax year, for each sale I show the sale proceeds and underlying 'pooled' purchase costs.
4. I find broker statements are pretty good for dividend income.
I do still employ an accountant just for my self-assessment returns. I keep telling myself I should be able to manage my dealings with HMRC myself, but he's good with unquoted stuff and negligible value claims, optimal allocation of EIS reliefs etc. Essentially I send him 3. above to compile the CGT pages for the tax return.
As others have mentioned - avoid 'dividend re-investment units' like the plague and possibly 'accumulation units' also (but then I avoid 'funds' entirely). And although I will commonly 'scale in'; to a stock until I reach my desired position, it simplifies matters to dispose of the stock entirely within one tax year.
A broader question: 2020-21 was the first year where I've made direct investment in overseas stocks. My understanding of HMRC guidance is that for CGT purposes you convert say $ purchase/sale costs into £ on the day of the transaction, so wrapping up any currency gain/loss into the overall gain/loss. The one broker I use for this has anyway converted every transaction into my home currency (£). However, I'm now about to set up a $ and € float within the account (to minimise FX charges) but I believe the same rules apply. It also appears from the guidance that any currency gains/losses on such a non-Sterling float do not enter into the CGT computation, even if I were to 'crystallise' such gain/loss by converting everything back to £. I gather the same principle applies to folk who hold foreign property and a foreign bank account for operating expenses. If any of the tax gurus feel I've misunderstood, please say!
millen said:
Yes it's all a faff! I doubt any of these brokers can provide fully compliant reporting for CGT.
I have a belt & braces approach:-
1. I maintain a small A5 hard copy notebook(s) in which I record every trade (both in taxed and non-taxed accounts), taken from the contract notes, but recording the net purchase and sale costs, after commissions, stamp duty etc.
2. For taxable accounts, these I then enter manually into a basic Excel spreadsheet, with all trades for one security grouped together. Again, best to do this on the day the contract note is received.
3. Then at the end of each tax year, for each sale I show the sale proceeds and underlying 'pooled' purchase costs.
4. I find broker statements are pretty good for dividend income.
I do still employ an accountant just for my self-assessment returns. I keep telling myself I should be able to manage my dealings with HMRC myself, but he's good with unquoted stuff and negligible value claims, optimal allocation of EIS reliefs etc. Essentially I send him 3. above to compile the CGT pages for the tax return.
As others have mentioned - avoid 'dividend re-investment units' like the plague and possibly 'accumulation units' also (but then I avoid 'funds' entirely). And although I will commonly 'scale in'; to a stock until I reach my desired position, it simplifies matters to dispose of the stock entirely within one tax year.
A broader question: 2020-21 was the first year where I've made direct investment in overseas stocks. My understanding of HMRC guidance is that for CGT purposes you convert say $ purchase/sale costs into £ on the day of the transaction, so wrapping up any currency gain/loss into the overall gain/loss. The one broker I use for this has anyway converted every transaction into my home currency (£). However, I'm now about to set up a $ and € float within the account (to minimise FX charges) but I believe the same rules apply. It also appears from the guidance that any currency gains/losses on such a non-Sterling float do not enter into the CGT computation, even if I were to 'crystallise' such gain/loss by converting everything back to £. I gather the same principle applies to folk who hold foreign property and a foreign bank account for operating expenses. If any of the tax gurus feel I've misunderstood, please say!
I think my head just exploded. I have a belt & braces approach:-
1. I maintain a small A5 hard copy notebook(s) in which I record every trade (both in taxed and non-taxed accounts), taken from the contract notes, but recording the net purchase and sale costs, after commissions, stamp duty etc.
2. For taxable accounts, these I then enter manually into a basic Excel spreadsheet, with all trades for one security grouped together. Again, best to do this on the day the contract note is received.
3. Then at the end of each tax year, for each sale I show the sale proceeds and underlying 'pooled' purchase costs.
4. I find broker statements are pretty good for dividend income.
I do still employ an accountant just for my self-assessment returns. I keep telling myself I should be able to manage my dealings with HMRC myself, but he's good with unquoted stuff and negligible value claims, optimal allocation of EIS reliefs etc. Essentially I send him 3. above to compile the CGT pages for the tax return.
As others have mentioned - avoid 'dividend re-investment units' like the plague and possibly 'accumulation units' also (but then I avoid 'funds' entirely). And although I will commonly 'scale in'; to a stock until I reach my desired position, it simplifies matters to dispose of the stock entirely within one tax year.
A broader question: 2020-21 was the first year where I've made direct investment in overseas stocks. My understanding of HMRC guidance is that for CGT purposes you convert say $ purchase/sale costs into £ on the day of the transaction, so wrapping up any currency gain/loss into the overall gain/loss. The one broker I use for this has anyway converted every transaction into my home currency (£). However, I'm now about to set up a $ and € float within the account (to minimise FX charges) but I believe the same rules apply. It also appears from the guidance that any currency gains/losses on such a non-Sterling float do not enter into the CGT computation, even if I were to 'crystallise' such gain/loss by converting everything back to £. I gather the same principle applies to folk who hold foreign property and a foreign bank account for operating expenses. If any of the tax gurus feel I've misunderstood, please say!
Occasionally you read someone saying they're being careful to avoid exceeding the cgt threshold so they don't have to pay any cgt. Always thought they were daft ... but can see why now!!!
I can see why the rules are as they are (see guidance url someone posted previously) but seriously only the civil service could think they're not going to trip a lot of people up. The government has some task group looking at simplifying tax, they could start here.
I can see why the rules are as they are (see guidance url someone posted previously) but seriously only the civil service could think they're not going to trip a lot of people up. The government has some task group looking at simplifying tax, they could start here.
If you think this is complicated just look at the pension drawdown and excess tax charge rules!
One more practical tip: if you switch broker you can't expect to retain access to their systems for very long. So download everything you might need for future tax returns before you go! (Same applies to many high interest bank accounts I found.)
One more practical tip: if you switch broker you can't expect to retain access to their systems for very long. So download everything you might need for future tax returns before you go! (Same applies to many high interest bank accounts I found.)
millen said:
If you think this is complicated just look at the pension drawdown and excess tax charge rules!
One more practical tip: if you switch broker you can't expect to retain access to their systems for very long. So download everything you might need for future tax returns before you go! (Same applies to many high interest bank accounts I found.)
Very true & in fact even if you stay with the provider you can lose information if you move some part of it to another. I had a SIPP, an ISA & a Stocks & Shares account with Hargreaves Lansdown & when I moved just the ISA elsewhere they instantly deleted all of the information associated with it. One more practical tip: if you switch broker you can't expect to retain access to their systems for very long. So download everything you might need for future tax returns before you go! (Same applies to many high interest bank accounts I found.)
Fo what its worth I just spoke to HL to ask if they could simply at the very least include the content of the contract note within the csv export that they do. The answer is no.
They went round and around the loop of saying they don't provide a cgt service. I repeated I am not looking for them to calculate my cgt just simply at the least export all relevant data for each transaction (like commission paid, fx fees, stamp duty etc) in the existing csv export instead of only referencing the contract note pdf... no can do.
So this means a day or so of getting that data out of the contract note pdf into the csv export so I can then work out the cgt. I could have a DBA do this change in a few hours, not sure why T212 do it but HL refuse.
They went round and around the loop of saying they don't provide a cgt service. I repeated I am not looking for them to calculate my cgt just simply at the least export all relevant data for each transaction (like commission paid, fx fees, stamp duty etc) in the existing csv export instead of only referencing the contract note pdf... no can do.
So this means a day or so of getting that data out of the contract note pdf into the csv export so I can then work out the cgt. I could have a DBA do this change in a few hours, not sure why T212 do it but HL refuse.
TheHangingJudge said:
Please can someone tell me if I am getting this wrong but my understanding is that the hargreaves report is adequate as in your calculation you include all costs so a volume and then total cost/receipt is adequate?
If you buy share A once and sell all share A in the same FY then it's simple enough.If you buy share A, then some more share A, then some more, then sell a bit etc and do this over more than one FY then the HL report is next to useless as the HMRC section 104 rules apply (I think thats the section) and it suddenly becomes massively complicated.
As someone said, get an accountant to do the whole thing for you or do it yourself, include all workings and hope for the best. personally I doubt HMRC will come after you if you're just a bit out but as their computers no doubt know all about all your trades as they are linked to your NI number etc etc I dare say HMRC may well have a better idea of what you owe than you do! For myself I'll work it out myself and let my accountant ok it.
MikeStroud said:
If you buy share A once and sell all share A in the same FY then it's simple enough.
If you buy share A, then some more share A, then some more, then sell a bit etc and do this over more than one FY then the HL report is next to useless as the HMRC section 104 rules apply (I think thats the section) and it suddenly becomes massively complicated.
As someone said, get an accountant to do the whole thing for you or do it yourself, include all workings and hope for the best. personally I doubt HMRC will come after you if you're just a bit out but as their computers no doubt know all about all your trades as they are linked to your NI number etc etc I dare say HMRC may well have a better idea of what you owe than you do! For myself I'll work it out myself and let my accountant ok it.
I haven't used it myself as I don't hold many shares but this might be worth a look:If you buy share A, then some more share A, then some more, then sell a bit etc and do this over more than one FY then the HL report is next to useless as the HMRC section 104 rules apply (I think thats the section) and it suddenly becomes massively complicated.
As someone said, get an accountant to do the whole thing for you or do it yourself, include all workings and hope for the best. personally I doubt HMRC will come after you if you're just a bit out but as their computers no doubt know all about all your trades as they are linked to your NI number etc etc I dare say HMRC may well have a better idea of what you owe than you do! For myself I'll work it out myself and let my accountant ok it.
http://www.cgtcalculator.com/default.htm
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