Mum in care home, LPA arrived, no property just £21k in bank

[Biggus thingus]

Hope this is the right place!

Mum had massive stroke in june last year, after a month in hospital ended up in care home. She lived in a council rented flat

Since then her care cost has been covered by nhs covid fund - £850 per week i believe

Only just got LPA and discover about £21k in bank. Plus about £160 per week pension been going in to her account. Spoke to pensions and she is due this money

Council been on claiming her care now not covered by covid fund and from 12 april she'll have to contribute

We covered the cost of emptying her flat and setting up LPA

Question is what will council take as contribution? I expect they'll take the bulk of her pension and leave about £25 p/w for toiletries/clothes etc

Will we easily be able to recover her moving costs from her account or will we have to battle with council every time we pay an outstanding bill or pay for to have a hair cut

Any advice would be great

[phumy]

You will need to contact social services and local authority, they will do a financial assessment, they won't take all of the £21k but may ask for a small contribution. She maybe also keep her pension too.

[Insurancejon]

The bit to watch out for, is they do the weekly cost calculations on what they can get the care for i.e at dads care home they had a deal at 575pw, but the open market price was 650pw. might not be an issue in your area.

might be easier given the much smaller pension in your case, but keep your negotiating hat on

[Biggus thingus]

Thanks Phumy and Insurancejon

I've read various things,

1, they will take £1 per every £250 per week/month? she has over the £14,250.00 threshold

2, She currently gets £158.00 per week pension plus a £20 top up which i believe they'll take leaving her with a nominal amount (£24 per week) for toiletries etc

I wonder how strict the council will be on us using her money?

She did write a cheque out for £1500.00 last year for our daughter but could'nt be cashed becouse she put mine and daughters name on cheque at the same time my brother got 2 cheques of the same amount for his kids that he cashed. At the time i said we did'nt need the money and stopped her writing another cheque but i know she wanted to give the money to daughter

Its a nightmare

[Simpo Two]

Biggus thingus said:

1, they will take £1 per every £250 per week/month? she has over the £14,250.00 threshold

£21,000 - £14,250 = £6,750. Divide by 250 and that's £27p/w they want - basically buttons.

Biggus thingus said:

2, She currently gets £158.00 per week pension plus a £20 top up which i believe they'll take leaving her with a nominal amount (£24 per week) for toiletries etc

From my experience if a patient's care is being paid by the State then yes, the State will take the pension. But if a patient is self-funding, no. So based on those figures she'll be looked after for £178+£27 = £205 p/w, which looks like a bargain to me.

Social services do vary depending on county, but my experience is that they can get very nasty, one might say bullying, and they also have a lot of power - their legal team is bigger than yours - so bear that in mind when dealing with them.

[Jamescrs]

Biggus thingus said:

She did write a cheque out for £1500.00 last year for our daughter but could'nt be cashed becouse she put mine and daughters name on cheque at the same time my brother got 2 cheques of the same amount for his kids that he cashed. At the time i said we did'nt need the money and stopped her writing another cheque but i know she wanted to give the money to daughter

Its a nightmare

Working on the assumption those cheques have not been banked and the cash is still in your mum's account they will see that money as your Mum's money to be factored into the calculations, the fact there are cheques which pre date the current circumstances unfortunately won't bother them, they may view it as you trying to move money out of her name now to avoid it being used as payments towards her care, i'm not suggesting that's what you are doing but having been through all this twice with grand parents I know how these things go.

[Tymb]

Isn’t the the savings limit £23,250 now, so the op’s mums savings are not counted?
If you have the financial lpa you should be able to go into the bank and get added to the account so you can pay expenses without a problem.

[SimonTheSailor]

Yes that's the current limit.
As has been said you need to fill out a financial assesment report for the local authority, quite a few pages long , asks all about savings/premium Bonds/pension/cash in bank,etc,etc.
You have to supply the last 6 months of bank statements to prove you are not gifting money out to people to avoid paying funds (or get you under the threshold).

Quite a ballache but then they will come back to you and inform you what contributions she needs to make.

[vixen1700]

Sorry to hijack the thread but this is happening with us right now:

Basically mother hsd a fall in February broke arm and bleed to brain, two weeks in hospital and now in small council care home (suited for dementia patients).

Been there about seven or eight weeks now. We don't think she can cope being at home (stairs/mental state etc.) and think the home is the best for her. We can visit once a week at the moment.

Have a meeting next week with social services and her (not looking forwatd to that) about her staying there. At the moment nobody is mentioning cost, but she owns her house and has plenty of cash in the bank. She's nearly 87.

Can anybody simply explain the next steps/costs etc. simply as it's not something we've done before. I have an LPA by the way.

Thanks and apologies for jumping in.

Edited by vixen1700 on Saturday 8th May 12:11

[Simpo Two]

vixen1700 said:

Have a meeting next week with social services and her (not looking forwatd to that) about her staying there. At the moment nobody is mentioning cost, but she owns her house and has plenty of cash in the bank. She's nearly 87.

Can anybody simply explain the next steps/costs etc. simply as it's not something we've done before. I have an LPA by the way

A good start would be to consult with Age UK to help you prepare for the meeting, know where you stand and what questions to ask. https://www.ageuk.org.uk/

[Sheepshanks]

Insurancejon said:

The bit to watch out for, is they do the weekly cost calculations on what they can get the care for i.e at dads care home they had a deal at 575pw, but the open market price was 650pw. might not be an issue in your area.

With my wife's very elderly Godfather, I have to say local social services were brilliant. He had his own house but only a few £K and they worked hard to keep him at home which is very much what he, us and his super-helpful neighbours wanted. We were somewhat aided as he had distant family who kept contacting Social Services and wanted to get him into a care home so there was a bit of a battle going on.

When eventually he did go into care, at the time the first 12 weeks were covered and the council told us to let them pay as it would cost less, and they'd put a charge on the house. He died within a couple of weeks later of going into the home.

When my mum went into care mainly due to spinal damage making her pretty well paraplegic, she was entirely self-funding. I asked social services about them paying so it'd cost les but they said they wouldn't do that. We tried for NHS continuing care but didn't get anywhere. To be fair, we didn't push too much as mum had a fair bit of money which ended up being shared with my feckless brothers - I'd have been glad if it all gone.

[Armitage.Shanks]

I thought the limit was £23,250 someone could hold and at which point LA paid all the social care fees?

I also was of the understanding with a 'stroke' for example there was additional funding provided to off-set care home costs? Several years ago my mother had a stroke resulting in a broken hip which was fixed but the assessment was she needed to be in a care home despite a living partner at home. The assessment of her condition meant that she ended up fully funded in a home despite having money well in excess of the threshold. She paid nothing albeit I think her state pension was given to the home.

I'm now going through it with my father-in-law with dementia. Financial assessment done and taking into account the amounts discarded (including mother-in-laws assets) he will be circa the £23k limit. Trouble is LA has a limit on what it will pay for a home - in our case £600pw. However trying to find one local with 24hr nursing on site is not easy - some are £1,400pw! My understanding is 'someone' in the family will have to make up the additional money to place him in a home of their choosing or he ends up out of area that could be miles away.

It started off what I saw as a simplistic process until you end up in a MDT meeting and trying to coordinate a suitable outcome............

I don't wish this on anyone, especially those dealing with dementia.

Don't forget there are two Powers of Attorney - Finance and Health. Where decisions need to be made on the latter that's a separate POA which fortunately we got just in time after having the financial one a few months earlier.

[VR99]

Armitage.Shanks said:

I'm now going through it with my father-in-law with dementia. Financial assessment done and taking into account the amounts discarded (including mother-in-laws assets) he will be circa the £23k limit. Trouble is LA has a limit on what it will pay for a home - in our case £600pw. However trying to find one local with 24hr nursing on site is not easy - some are £1,400pw! My understanding is 'someone' in the family will have to make up the additional money to place him in a home of their choosing or he ends up out of area that could be miles away.

If you don't mind me asking, did your FIL have any property assets taken into account by the LA for the financial assessment?
I will be going through this situation with my mum fairly soon..her total savings are just under the £23k threshold but she has 50% Equity in a property so I am preparing myself for the LA saying her 50% equity will be taken into account hence it will need to be sold somehow....she receives net £300 per week in pensions and benefits so would need ballpark £500-700 top up given the v high cost of dementia and nursing care. She isn't quite at that stage yet (still mobile and fairly sharp) but gradually declining.

[Armitage.Shanks]

No they don't own the property they are in so it is not counted. Background is I bought it for them many years ago when they want to free up the cash from the own property to enjoy themselves and they live in it rent free but maintain it.

I think from memory if the spouse or joint owner of the property is still living in the main home its value is discounted. at some point they may take a lean on 50% as presumably the other 50% can be inherited when the home living spouse dies.

Some very good info on Age Concern here: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/p... and here: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/p...

[Biggus thingus]

Thanks for the advice so far

Reading abit on Age Uk website at states that saving below £23,250.00 will be subject to a "Tariff" until the savings drop to £14,250.00 at which point the tariff stops

Care costs about £850 per week and she gets £230.00 contribution to the care costs from NHS continuing care

Anyone any idea what the average tariff is?

As i said, Mum gets £158.00 per week pension plus £20 or so top up

She has to be left with a minimum of £24.90 per week for toiletries etc

Is there a calculation the council uses to work out the tariff?

Over what period of time do they calculate the tariff?

[Armitage.Shanks]

I think that will be based upon what the LA is willing to pay for care home costs and what the home charges? Taking the state pension might make this 'Tarrif' up but based on figures I'm seeing it doesn't look like it!

[VR99]

Armitage.Shanks said:

I think from memory if the spouse or joint owner of the property is still living in the main home its value is discounted. at some point they may take a lean on 50% as presumably the other 50% can be inherited when the home living spouse dies.

Some very good info on Age Concern here: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/p... and here: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/p...

Thanks I need to read on this...I vaguely recall that unless it's a spouse or offspring who are 60+...the LA may still expect the equity to be included. For context I lost.my father last year, probate is dragging out due to Covid but the other 50% equity will be passing to myself. I live in the property and am a carer too so hoping the LA give some slack.but accept they don't need to and will assume they won't.
Op- sorry not hijacking your thread!

[Biggus thingus]

VR99 said:

Thanks I need to read on this...I vaguely recall that unless it's a spouse or offspring who are 60+...the LA may still expect the equity to be included. For context I lost.my father last year, probate is dragging out due to Covid but the other 50% equity will be passing to myself. I live in the property and am a carer too so hoping the LA give some slack.but accept they don't need to and will assume they won't.
Op- sorry not hijacking your thread!

No worries VR, i think i'm fairly comfortable i know what we're looking at now

Researched on Leeds council website and it gives an example scenario not too dissimilar to ours

Basically, council will take all pension but make sure Mum receives a minimum £24.90 p/w for essentials

They will also take £1 p/w for every £250 she has in savings over £14,250.00. Looking at about £27 p/w which will decrease as her savings decrease

At least comfortable now that they aren't gonna come along and wipe it all out

Hope you get sorted with you situation VR, good luck