Nursing home fees - can they take or put charge on the home?
Discussion
Hi guys...if possible looming redundancy wasn't good enough (my other thread), I wanted to ask what the situation is regarding nursing home fees are and classification of the family home.
Background: I am in my early 40s and currently live at home with my mum, who is of pensionable age. After suffering a number of issues, including multiple strokes, we put dad up in a care home from 2021 at a cost of around £1,100 a week. This is paid for out of some of dad's savings, his state pension and me contributing a good chunk of my salary as well each month.
Apart from around £100,000 in savings, dad doesn't have much else, no bonds, no shares, no private pension, no fancy cars or watches etc. Once his cash runs out, we will eventually be applying to the council for funding (unless I manage to get a very well paid job again).
Key question for me - when the local authority assessment is performed, will they take the family home into account and force us to sell it or put a charge on it? Or the fact that mum and I live in that home, means it is disregarded?
Any advice appreciated, thank you!
Background: I am in my early 40s and currently live at home with my mum, who is of pensionable age. After suffering a number of issues, including multiple strokes, we put dad up in a care home from 2021 at a cost of around £1,100 a week. This is paid for out of some of dad's savings, his state pension and me contributing a good chunk of my salary as well each month.
Apart from around £100,000 in savings, dad doesn't have much else, no bonds, no shares, no private pension, no fancy cars or watches etc. Once his cash runs out, we will eventually be applying to the council for funding (unless I manage to get a very well paid job again).
Key question for me - when the local authority assessment is performed, will they take the family home into account and force us to sell it or put a charge on it? Or the fact that mum and I live in that home, means it is disregarded?
Any advice appreciated, thank you!
I'd have a watch of this https://youtu.be/XGJZ0E6ofxM
This is the website from the video that are able to provide care cost advise https://www.eldercaregroup.co.uk
But I think the simple answer is they can't touch the house if a partner is living in it.
Quote - It is important to be aware that if your spouse or a relative over 60 lives in the property (as their main residence) then its value is excluded from the Local Authority means-test.
https://www.eldercaregroup.co.uk/frequently-asked-...
This is the website from the video that are able to provide care cost advise https://www.eldercaregroup.co.uk
But I think the simple answer is they can't touch the house if a partner is living in it.
Quote - It is important to be aware that if your spouse or a relative over 60 lives in the property (as their main residence) then its value is excluded from the Local Authority means-test.
https://www.eldercaregroup.co.uk/frequently-asked-...
Edited by highpeakrider on Friday 29th April 16:50
You need to be careful with what you fund - it’s likely better to burn through your parents cash first.
Assuming the ‘family home’ is your parents house, then they may well place a charge against it for the cost of the care. So your inheritance may disappear completely - hence the advice above.
However, they won’t force a sale of the house whilst your mum is living in it - or is in temporary care - and even after that and it’s just you, they are generally somewhat accommodating and will allow you some time.
Assuming the ‘family home’ is your parents house, then they may well place a charge against it for the cost of the care. So your inheritance may disappear completely - hence the advice above.
However, they won’t force a sale of the house whilst your mum is living in it - or is in temporary care - and even after that and it’s just you, they are generally somewhat accommodating and will allow you some time.
Aliblahblah said:
Background: I am in my early 40s and currently live at home with my mum, who is of pensionable age. After suffering a number of issues, including multiple strokes, we put dad up in a care home from 2021 at a cost of around £1,100 a week. This is paid for out of some of dad's savings, his state pension and me contributing a good chunk of my salary as well each month.
You're not liable to pay any of the fees - they should really all come from your father's money until/if you get to the point State support/Council funding kicks in to assist.Aliblahblah said:
Key question for me - when the local authority assessment is performed, will they take the family home into account and force us to sell it or put a charge on it? Or the fact that mum and I live in that home, means it is disregarded?
It depends on the county council, but I don't believe they can force a spouse to sell their home while they still live in it. However, if a debt accumulates and is not paid, they can and will take a charge on the property. It's not necessarily a bad thing, think of it as an interest-free loan. That way your mother can stay in the house and the Council get paid when the house is eventually sold.In my experience, whilst Councils just plod along and get there eventually, Social services can be incompetent and unpleasant. If you feel you're being bullied or wrongly treated, talk to Age UK: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/services/age-uk-advice-li...
An option in the High Peak is to pay a small legal fee and you can get a low interest loan against the house when the right time comes to sell.
Its a option if you don't want to sell but should not apply in this case.
https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/social-health/adult-...
Its a option if you don't want to sell but should not apply in this case.
https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/social-health/adult-...
Thanks to all for the advice, I really appreciate it, I don't have many friends or people I can talk to in general! 
Having done some additional research, I can see (as some of you have pointed out), that as long as the spouse is alive and living at the family home, then the council cannot take it into consideration as part of the financial assessment.
My question in this - once dad's cash savings are fully depleted, if the local authority don't take the home into consideration, then at that point they pick up the care tab fully, is that correct?
Will they ever try to recoup the care costs from mum and myself at a later date eg, will they present us with a bill or will they put a charge on the home, or will the home simply pass to mum on dad's death (I guess until she needs some sort of care)?
Having done some additional research, I can see (as some of you have pointed out), that as long as the spouse is alive and living at the family home, then the council cannot take it into consideration as part of the financial assessment.
My question in this - once dad's cash savings are fully depleted, if the local authority don't take the home into consideration, then at that point they pick up the care tab fully, is that correct?
Will they ever try to recoup the care costs from mum and myself at a later date eg, will they present us with a bill or will they put a charge on the home, or will the home simply pass to mum on dad's death (I guess until she needs some sort of care)?
Sorry - I have no idea about the first partner going into care, only the second one.
I'd expect you could divide all assets between a couple - savings & property - from the time care starts. But what I expect doesn't really matter. If you're concerned, then maybe call your local council and ask someone about your particular circumstances ?
I'd expect you could divide all assets between a couple - savings & property - from the time care starts. But what I expect doesn't really matter. If you're concerned, then maybe call your local council and ask someone about your particular circumstances ?
Without knowing exactly your dads medical situation, it may be worth looking into the NHS Continuing Health Care Scheme.
You mention a nursing home so he clearly requires more specialist care.
It is not an easy process although there are lawyers who will take the case on on a no win no fee basis - if the case is strong enough
You mention a nursing home so he clearly requires more specialist care.
It is not an easy process although there are lawyers who will take the case on on a no win no fee basis - if the case is strong enough
IANAL and my only experience is my Mum's care funding experience. She is single and owns her own flat, now in residential care (self-funded). Not quite the same position as you.
But yes the council can and do take the value of her home into consideration for care funding decisions. Her flat is currently rented out but my expectation is that she will have to sell it in due course as her cash savings are depleted.
They cannot as far as I know force your Mum to sell while she is still alive and resident in the family home. But I think they can take a charge against it in some circs. Whether they will or not, I don't know. Maybe seek local advice on this.
Care home funding practice varies quite subtantially from region to region as it is all down to the LA. There is also a range of responses from individual care homes as to how much of a discount they are prepared to take once a residents savings are gone and the council takes over the funding.
It is opaque, complicated and horrendously expensive. Makes childcare - also pretty pricey - look like a bargain in comparison.
But yes the council can and do take the value of her home into consideration for care funding decisions. Her flat is currently rented out but my expectation is that she will have to sell it in due course as her cash savings are depleted.
They cannot as far as I know force your Mum to sell while she is still alive and resident in the family home. But I think they can take a charge against it in some circs. Whether they will or not, I don't know. Maybe seek local advice on this.
Care home funding practice varies quite subtantially from region to region as it is all down to the LA. There is also a range of responses from individual care homes as to how much of a discount they are prepared to take once a residents savings are gone and the council takes over the funding.
It is opaque, complicated and horrendously expensive. Makes childcare - also pretty pricey - look like a bargain in comparison.
Boringvolvodriver said:
Without knowing exactly your dads medical situation, it may be worth looking into the NHS Continuing Health Care Scheme.
You mention a nursing home so he clearly requires more specialist care.
But is it actually a nursing home? A care home and a nursing home are quite different things. Continuing Health Care is only applicable in the latter and even then, you may have a fight to get it as funds are so short. It's for people who need daily nursing care, as opposed to just health/hygiene care.You mention a nursing home so he clearly requires more specialist care.
In our case, the LA were under no obligation to fund the care home fees as they were. When/if funds would have run out, we were told if it was solely the LA funding care, then don’t expect to stay here, and don’t be surprised to find you have little choice in the location given to you..
Aliblahblah said:
Hi guys...if possible looming redundancy wasn't good enough (my other thread), I wanted to ask what the situation is regarding nursing home fees are and classification of the family home.
Background: I am in my early 40s and currently live at home with my mum,
If the OP is living in his parents house, after his mum has passed away can the council still take possession of the house to sell and pay for his fathers nursing home fees? If his mother needs to go into a care home and the OP is still living in the house, can the same apply?Background: I am in my early 40s and currently live at home with my mum,
LeadFarmer said:
If the OP is living in his parents house, after his mum has passed away can the council still take possession of the house to sell and pay for his fathers nursing home fees? If his mother needs to go into a care home and the OP is still living in the house, can the same apply?
IF (and I stress IF) there is a charge taken against the property, then they can ask for their money back one both owners are deceased. However, they are usually quite relaxed on timing and generally don't want to take possession of the house. They'd much rather the executors sold the house and then paid off the debt.Eventually, they can absolutely force OP to sell / leave the house as it won't be his house.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/p...
This was the most helpful site I could find when I looked at this recently for my f-i-l (who sadly died before the house became an issue).
Do you know if your parents own the property as Joint Tenants or as Tenants in Common?
This was the most helpful site I could find when I looked at this recently for my f-i-l (who sadly died before the house became an issue).
Do you know if your parents own the property as Joint Tenants or as Tenants in Common?
This is not always clear cut and best to take professional advice especially where 'Disregarded for the financial assessment' means something different from estate assets and potential for reclaim of care home fees on death.
My understanding is that most married couples will own the main home 50:50 with an automatic transfer to the surviving spouse on death without a tax liability. You need to work through the scenarios especially after the point the Council has started picking up the care home bill especially around transfer of estate upon death. Also what does his will say in terms of gifts/legacies oustide of transfer to spouse?
The concern for me in your situation is when both your parents die and presumably you inherit the property. At that point does the council come along and ask for repayment of any charge on the property? Can it be deferred whilst you remain in it as your 'main and only home'? I don't know the answer as it is not something I've personally come across and somewhat lucky that my inlaws live in a house that I own and the father in law is in a care home with a bill picked up by the LA as dividing their assets brings the value under the threshold. I will say councils are actutely aware of depravation of assets and it did raise a few eyebrows when ownership of the house was explained. The fact I had bought it 10yrs before the dementia diagnosis and they were living in it as their only home (sold theirs to enjoy the money whilst they still could) closed that door.
This fact sheet is useful but doesn't give all the answers. https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/docum...
What I would stop doing now is paying your own money to top up the care home fees without using your father's money first.
My understanding is that most married couples will own the main home 50:50 with an automatic transfer to the surviving spouse on death without a tax liability. You need to work through the scenarios especially after the point the Council has started picking up the care home bill especially around transfer of estate upon death. Also what does his will say in terms of gifts/legacies oustide of transfer to spouse?
The concern for me in your situation is when both your parents die and presumably you inherit the property. At that point does the council come along and ask for repayment of any charge on the property? Can it be deferred whilst you remain in it as your 'main and only home'? I don't know the answer as it is not something I've personally come across and somewhat lucky that my inlaws live in a house that I own and the father in law is in a care home with a bill picked up by the LA as dividing their assets brings the value under the threshold. I will say councils are actutely aware of depravation of assets and it did raise a few eyebrows when ownership of the house was explained. The fact I had bought it 10yrs before the dementia diagnosis and they were living in it as their only home (sold theirs to enjoy the money whilst they still could) closed that door.
This fact sheet is useful but doesn't give all the answers. https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/docum...
What I would stop doing now is paying your own money to top up the care home fees without using your father's money first.
As well as not putting any of your own money in, I would check you are claiming all the allowances to which your Father is entitled.
They are not enough, but they do add up.
Do Not have any qualms about taking these benefits, it is your Mum you need to consider.
Also talk with your Mum and make sure you have powers of attorney for her, and if you have been putting cash into the household, she might consider putting some of it in your name? You'd need proper advice on that of course.
Also consider what of 'your Dad's savings' should be considered your parents joint savings.
AgeUK are very helpful.
They are not enough, but they do add up.
Do Not have any qualms about taking these benefits, it is your Mum you need to consider.
Also talk with your Mum and make sure you have powers of attorney for her, and if you have been putting cash into the household, she might consider putting some of it in your name? You'd need proper advice on that of course.
Also consider what of 'your Dad's savings' should be considered your parents joint savings.
AgeUK are very helpful.
Sorry, but late to this!
I went through this about 3 years ago with my mother. Do not put anymore of your own money in, you won’t get it back and you have your own future to plan for.
If you have kept good records of your payments to the care home and can prove it to social services if necessary, then I recommend you get your father to repay you. Just say it was a loan.
Next thing to do is power of attorney for both your parents. It has made our lives much easier knowing we can pay all the bills from their own accounts.
All savings in your dads name, including premium bonds, etc, but not the house will go towards his care. Everything in joint names, except the house will be divided equally. Social services cannot touch anything in your mums name.
Social services will start paying all of the care costs once your father is down to £23,500 but make sure you tell them well in advance. They can take forever to get their act together.
As for those who suggest Continuing Health Care, which NHS pay for, don’t get your hopes up! The patient has to be almost dead in order to claim that. Coincidentally, we have an assessment for my mother next week regarding this.
She might even qualify this time.
I went through this about 3 years ago with my mother. Do not put anymore of your own money in, you won’t get it back and you have your own future to plan for.
If you have kept good records of your payments to the care home and can prove it to social services if necessary, then I recommend you get your father to repay you. Just say it was a loan.
Next thing to do is power of attorney for both your parents. It has made our lives much easier knowing we can pay all the bills from their own accounts.
All savings in your dads name, including premium bonds, etc, but not the house will go towards his care. Everything in joint names, except the house will be divided equally. Social services cannot touch anything in your mums name.
Social services will start paying all of the care costs once your father is down to £23,500 but make sure you tell them well in advance. They can take forever to get their act together.
As for those who suggest Continuing Health Care, which NHS pay for, don’t get your hopes up! The patient has to be almost dead in order to claim that. Coincidentally, we have an assessment for my mother next week regarding this.
She might even qualify this time.
Edited by Grandad Gaz on Wednesday 4th May 07:54
As mentioned above, contact social services a few months before capital runs out as it will take time for them to do an assessment of need and financial assessment. I work in adult social care but I'm not too clued up on all the fees etc, but doing a dig around I've found this information from another local authority which is fairly comprehensive.
https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/media-library/doc...
Registering for LPA is also another good suggestion, for both mum and dad.
As others have said, I would stop paying the top-up and let your dad run through his savings first because you won't get that money back.
Edit: forgot to add that when social services do their assessment they will probably/should consider whether a CHC application is applicable - any chance to reduce costs and we take it!
https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/media-library/doc...
Registering for LPA is also another good suggestion, for both mum and dad.
As others have said, I would stop paying the top-up and let your dad run through his savings first because you won't get that money back.
Edit: forgot to add that when social services do their assessment they will probably/should consider whether a CHC application is applicable - any chance to reduce costs and we take it!
Edited by Planet Claire on Wednesday 4th May 10:01
Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff