How to protect my Mother from herself?
Discussion
Hi All
My Mum who is in her 70s, has been scammed twice in the last couple of years for a total of £23k!
The first time was when she clicked on a link she shouldn't have, put in her PayPal login details, and the scammer spent £7k of her money on expensive clothes. They used false details and got the items shipped to different pick up locations (shops, chemists, etc). She reported it to PayPal who raised a case, and thankfully she got her money back. When i asked her how it happened, she told me she didn't know.
Today i find out that someone called her a couple of weeks ago, claiming to be from her bank, scared her into thinking her money wasn't safe, and advised her to transfer £16k into a "safe" account that he gave her the details for. There's more to the story, but that's ultimately what happened. So we've been to the bank and raised a case with the fraud team. We now have to wait 2 weeks to see if she can get her money back.
When my Dad was alive, he handled all the finances, bills, etc, and all she had to do was go and get the shopping once a week. So for 70 years, she never really had to concern herself with money. I've tried to help her, advised her to be vigilant and keep an eye out for scams, but that's twice now in a couple of years, and i'm not holding my breath that she will get her money back this time. Savings gone!!
My question is, is there any way that myself or my sister can take some sort of power of attorney type role over her finances? Something where if a transaction takes place over a certain amount, we have to authorise it or are notified before it goes through? I know this is something the banks do already, but due to the scammer being so convincing to my Mum, she told the bank everything was ok. Whereas, my sister or I would have known there was something wrong.
I still want her to be able to spend money as normal, and not have her feel like her spending is being monitored (as that's what my Dad used to do), but due to her age, it's very rare that she will spend more than £100 in one go, so anything over that would raise a red flag to me and i could question it.
She knows how stupid she's been and said it won't happen again, but she also said that after the PayPal incident. I'm just not confident that she won't fall for more scams in the future, and want to put something in place (if possible) that i can look at it first, and stop it if necessary.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
My Mum who is in her 70s, has been scammed twice in the last couple of years for a total of £23k!
The first time was when she clicked on a link she shouldn't have, put in her PayPal login details, and the scammer spent £7k of her money on expensive clothes. They used false details and got the items shipped to different pick up locations (shops, chemists, etc). She reported it to PayPal who raised a case, and thankfully she got her money back. When i asked her how it happened, she told me she didn't know.
Today i find out that someone called her a couple of weeks ago, claiming to be from her bank, scared her into thinking her money wasn't safe, and advised her to transfer £16k into a "safe" account that he gave her the details for. There's more to the story, but that's ultimately what happened. So we've been to the bank and raised a case with the fraud team. We now have to wait 2 weeks to see if she can get her money back.
When my Dad was alive, he handled all the finances, bills, etc, and all she had to do was go and get the shopping once a week. So for 70 years, she never really had to concern herself with money. I've tried to help her, advised her to be vigilant and keep an eye out for scams, but that's twice now in a couple of years, and i'm not holding my breath that she will get her money back this time. Savings gone!!
My question is, is there any way that myself or my sister can take some sort of power of attorney type role over her finances? Something where if a transaction takes place over a certain amount, we have to authorise it or are notified before it goes through? I know this is something the banks do already, but due to the scammer being so convincing to my Mum, she told the bank everything was ok. Whereas, my sister or I would have known there was something wrong.
I still want her to be able to spend money as normal, and not have her feel like her spending is being monitored (as that's what my Dad used to do), but due to her age, it's very rare that she will spend more than £100 in one go, so anything over that would raise a red flag to me and i could question it.
She knows how stupid she's been and said it won't happen again, but she also said that after the PayPal incident. I'm just not confident that she won't fall for more scams in the future, and want to put something in place (if possible) that i can look at it first, and stop it if necessary.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
I do work for a fraud team and I can tell you that under Banking Protocols all banks have a responsibility to safeguard vulnerable people against scams like this. they have to take steps to intervene and ensure people like your mum actually want to transfer the money. Banks can be made to refund the money if they haven't complied with their own banking protocols, and I have experience of banks paying back massive refunds for these kind of scams.
I suggest you report it to the police, though they will usually direct you to Action Fraud who are useless and don't actually investigate anything (but that is the national procedure) however they will notify your local police force who 'should' pick up on the fact your mother is vulnerable due to her age. They should have a fraud safeguarding officer who can help your mum get her money back.
I suggest you report it to the police, though they will usually direct you to Action Fraud who are useless and don't actually investigate anything (but that is the national procedure) however they will notify your local police force who 'should' pick up on the fact your mother is vulnerable due to her age. They should have a fraud safeguarding officer who can help your mum get her money back.
Also get her a a phone such as the BT 4600 Big Button Advanced Call Blocker Home Phone, where the caller has to state their name, which your mother hears before deciding to answer the phone. Whilst it might not have stopped her answering this particular call, it does stop the automated scam calls.
LeadFarmer said:
I do work for a fraud team and I can tell you that under Banking Protocols all banks have a responsibility to safeguard vulnerable people against scams like this. they have to take steps to intervene and ensure people like your mum actually want to transfer the money. Banks can be made to refund the money if they haven't complied with their own banking protocols, and I have experience of banks paying back massive refunds for these kind of scams.
I suggest you report it to the police, though they will usually direct you to Action Fraud who are useless and don't actually investigate anything, but they will notify your local police force who 'should' pick up on the fact your mother is vulnerable due to her age. they should have a fraud safeguarding officer who can help your mum get her money back.
The scammer convinced my Mum to tell the bank that she was transferring the money to a family member, so i believe the bank did follow their process, but unfortunately she didn't tell them the truth. They basically led her to believe that someone within her bank was trying to take her money so she couldn't tell them the truth.I suggest you report it to the police, though they will usually direct you to Action Fraud who are useless and don't actually investigate anything, but they will notify your local police force who 'should' pick up on the fact your mother is vulnerable due to her age. they should have a fraud safeguarding officer who can help your mum get her money back.
The first i heard of it was this morning when she called me from the police station. Like you say, they just told her about Action Fraud and suggested that she speak to the fraud team at her bank. They said if she doesn't get anywhere with the bank, get back in touch and they will see if they can help.
Seems to me that some of the problem is with the online aspect of banking. Does she really need to bank online, or have a Paypal account?
If it was me I might dive in and change the passwords (with suitable explanation).
As for the phone calls, she may be on a 'mug's list' so expect more.
I know someone who lost a 5-figure sum on a Christmas tree scam. She believed it because they sent her a brochure with photos of Christmas trees in it; she just assumed they were the trees she was 'investing' in. And she lost £60K on a jewellery scam.
If it was me I might dive in and change the passwords (with suitable explanation).
As for the phone calls, she may be on a 'mug's list' so expect more.
I know someone who lost a 5-figure sum on a Christmas tree scam. She believed it because they sent her a brochure with photos of Christmas trees in it; she just assumed they were the trees she was 'investing' in. And she lost £60K on a jewellery scam.
Simpo Two said:
Seems to me that some of the problem is with the online aspect of banking. Does she really need to bank online, or have a Paypal account?
If it was me I might dive in and change the passwords (with suitable explanation).
As for the phone calls, she may be on a 'mug's list' so expect more.
My Mum is 86 and manages fine without any online finance stuff at all despite still being very active. She pays bills or books outings on the phone. Sometimes we order items for her from Amazon. Worth considering if the OPs mother will accept it.If it was me I might dive in and change the passwords (with suitable explanation).
As for the phone calls, she may be on a 'mug's list' so expect more.
The main two points I would drill into her are…
1) Dont click links in emails or text messages. If she gets a warning from PayPal etc, tell her always go and login via the normal website herself, for anything.
2) If she receives any calls, hang up and call the company back on the number on the back of her bank card/ from Google from a mobile phone. (Fraudsters can keep a landline call open after you put the phone down and pretend to ‘pick up’ the next number you dial)
Get her to read this
https://www.takefive-stopfraud.org.uk/
1) Dont click links in emails or text messages. If she gets a warning from PayPal etc, tell her always go and login via the normal website herself, for anything.
2) If she receives any calls, hang up and call the company back on the number on the back of her bank card/ from Google from a mobile phone. (Fraudsters can keep a landline call open after you put the phone down and pretend to ‘pick up’ the next number you dial)
Get her to read this
https://www.takefive-stopfraud.org.uk/
Blimey, this is awful. I'm now extremely happy that my old Mum is persistently broke and hasn't got any cash to be scammed out of, I know she'd fall for something like this.
Good luck OP, hope you get her the dosh back. What a time to be alive.
Has she got a mobile phone? Can she get to grips with things like WhatsApp and FB Messenger? If so, perhaps you could try to persuade her to "switch off" the landline telephone, as that's where the vast majority of this scamming of old folks is happening. My Mum's a similar age, and she's OK now with video calling over FB Messenger, but I can't wean her fully off the landline, it's always ringing off the bloody hook when I'm over there.
I think perhaps it would be best to try to educate her that any incoming phone call or email purporting to be from a bank/payment service should be treated as scam and ignored, or that she should be calling her bank to verify the contact as genuine before doing anything.
Good luck OP, hope you get her the dosh back. What a time to be alive.
Has she got a mobile phone? Can she get to grips with things like WhatsApp and FB Messenger? If so, perhaps you could try to persuade her to "switch off" the landline telephone, as that's where the vast majority of this scamming of old folks is happening. My Mum's a similar age, and she's OK now with video calling over FB Messenger, but I can't wean her fully off the landline, it's always ringing off the bloody hook when I'm over there.
I think perhaps it would be best to try to educate her that any incoming phone call or email purporting to be from a bank/payment service should be treated as scam and ignored, or that she should be calling her bank to verify the contact as genuine before doing anything.
Greshamst said:
The main two points I would drill into her are…
1) Dont click links in emails or text messages. If she gets a warning from PayPal etc, tell her always go and login via the normal website herself, for anything.
2) If she receives any calls, hang up and call the company back on the number on the back of her bank card/ from Google from a mobile phone. (Fraudsters can keep a landline call open after you put the phone down and pretend to ‘pick up’ the next number you dial)
That's all well and good until she forgets.1) Dont click links in emails or text messages. If she gets a warning from PayPal etc, tell her always go and login via the normal website herself, for anything.
2) If she receives any calls, hang up and call the company back on the number on the back of her bank card/ from Google from a mobile phone. (Fraudsters can keep a landline call open after you put the phone down and pretend to ‘pick up’ the next number you dial)
Bannock said:
Blimey, this is awful. I'm now extremely happy that my old Mum is persistently broke and hasn't got any cash to be scammed out of, I know she'd fall for something like this.
Good luck OP, hope you get her the dosh back. What a time to be alive.
Has she got a mobile phone? Can she get to grips with things like WhatsApp and FB Messenger? If so, perhaps you could try to persuade her to "switch off" the landline telephone, as that's where the vast majority of this scamming of old folks is happening. My Mum's a similar age, and she's OK now with video calling over FB Messenger, but I can't wean her fully off the landline, it's always ringing off the bloody hook when I'm over there.
I think perhaps it would be best to try to educate her that any incoming phone call or email purporting to be from a bank/payment service should be treated as scam and ignored, or that she should be calling her bank to verify the contact as genuine before doing anything.
I use a landline a lot, but I ALWAYS look at the number before answering. That is the key IMHO. Numbers in the memory show the caller's name, 'Dave W' etc. If I don't recognise the number, or it shows 'unavailable' or 'international', I let it go to answerphone. Mostly those callers hang up, but sometimes it's a call I want and I can grab it.Good luck OP, hope you get her the dosh back. What a time to be alive.
Has she got a mobile phone? Can she get to grips with things like WhatsApp and FB Messenger? If so, perhaps you could try to persuade her to "switch off" the landline telephone, as that's where the vast majority of this scamming of old folks is happening. My Mum's a similar age, and she's OK now with video calling over FB Messenger, but I can't wean her fully off the landline, it's always ringing off the bloody hook when I'm over there.
I think perhaps it would be best to try to educate her that any incoming phone call or email purporting to be from a bank/payment service should be treated as scam and ignored, or that she should be calling her bank to verify the contact as genuine before doing anything.
Slightly amusing that the suggestion of a mobile phone doesn't come with the option to use it as a phone, but trying to type on it, which I can't see working.
Simpo Two said:
Slightly amusing that the suggestion of a mobile phone doesn't come with the option to use it as a phone, but trying to type on it, which I can't see working.
That's not what I meant. WhatsApp and FB Messenger can be used as voice applications, you can use them to replace a traditional telephone by using them for voice and video calls, I wasn't talking about typed messaging.Edited by Bannock on Thursday 15th September 10:22
It’s ludicrous that a bank would ever call you to save your money from a scammer at the bank.
And if your money is scammed at the banks end, it’d be covered any way.
I keep all my big money behind building society accounts with physical books.
Even they keep telling me about online, phone apps etc.
No no no you morons, the whole damn point is that it’s hard to access.
If I want easy access I’ll have it in a bank account with a card!
Government need to improve this area. We keep hearing about KYC, all the ID to set up an account etc, yet these scammers can get money and then somehow disappear?
Isn’t KYC and all the ID meant to stop all this? Clearly it was missold or badly implemented on its ability to do anything except inconvenience genuine people.
And if your money is scammed at the banks end, it’d be covered any way.
I keep all my big money behind building society accounts with physical books.
Even they keep telling me about online, phone apps etc.
No no no you morons, the whole damn point is that it’s hard to access.
If I want easy access I’ll have it in a bank account with a card!
Government need to improve this area. We keep hearing about KYC, all the ID to set up an account etc, yet these scammers can get money and then somehow disappear?
Isn’t KYC and all the ID meant to stop all this? Clearly it was missold or badly implemented on its ability to do anything except inconvenience genuine people.
Simpo Two said:
Greshamst said:
The main two points I would drill into her are…
1) Dont click links in emails or text messages. If she gets a warning from PayPal etc, tell her always go and login via the normal website herself, for anything.
2) If she receives any calls, hang up and call the company back on the number on the back of her bank card/ from Google from a mobile phone. (Fraudsters can keep a landline call open after you put the phone down and pretend to ‘pick up’ the next number you dial)
That's all well and good until she forgets.1) Dont click links in emails or text messages. If she gets a warning from PayPal etc, tell her always go and login via the normal website herself, for anything.
2) If she receives any calls, hang up and call the company back on the number on the back of her bank card/ from Google from a mobile phone. (Fraudsters can keep a landline call open after you put the phone down and pretend to ‘pick up’ the next number you dial)
Jesus.
Sorry to hear about this OP.
My father was scammed by outright thieves and effectively legitimised scammers - selling a service at an inflated price.
Firstly I would look to get LPA, Lasting Power of Attorney drawn up, ensuring that it covers both Financial and Health. Then approach her bank, with her coming along and ask them to make sure her account is indicated as a vulnerable one, so that extra checks or questions are asked or even limits. If something is legitimate it can be resolved by a phone call or meeting with the bank.
Secondly, as others have indicated try to limit the chance of her being approached by such people.
These people are scum, they have zero remorse and will happily lie or make up any story or chat to ensure they get their money. If they are legitimised scammers you will find that you will not be able to exit from the purchase or service - they are trained to stop people from stopping paying and of course if it is a service it auto-renews. ggrrrrrrr! They are amazingly persuasive if they are a legitimate business offering an awful, over priced service or an out and out scammer. They have certain social skills which they will use to persuade someone to hand over details or money whereas they wouldn't normally do so. Your mother shouldn't be made to feel 'stupid' and should share her experience with friends, only by talking about it are we likely to slow these people down. I'd love them to be stopped but it just isn't going to happen any time soon - unless something fundamental happens in banking.
My father was scammed by outright thieves and effectively legitimised scammers - selling a service at an inflated price.
Firstly I would look to get LPA, Lasting Power of Attorney drawn up, ensuring that it covers both Financial and Health. Then approach her bank, with her coming along and ask them to make sure her account is indicated as a vulnerable one, so that extra checks or questions are asked or even limits. If something is legitimate it can be resolved by a phone call or meeting with the bank.
Secondly, as others have indicated try to limit the chance of her being approached by such people.
These people are scum, they have zero remorse and will happily lie or make up any story or chat to ensure they get their money. If they are legitimised scammers you will find that you will not be able to exit from the purchase or service - they are trained to stop people from stopping paying and of course if it is a service it auto-renews. ggrrrrrrr! They are amazingly persuasive if they are a legitimate business offering an awful, over priced service or an out and out scammer. They have certain social skills which they will use to persuade someone to hand over details or money whereas they wouldn't normally do so. Your mother shouldn't be made to feel 'stupid' and should share her experience with friends, only by talking about it are we likely to slow these people down. I'd love them to be stopped but it just isn't going to happen any time soon - unless something fundamental happens in banking.
Greshamst said:
Simpo Two said:
Greshamst said:
The main two points I would drill into her are…
1) Dont click links in emails or text messages. If she gets a warning from PayPal etc, tell her always go and login via the normal website herself, for anything.
2) If she receives any calls, hang up and call the company back on the number on the back of her bank card/ from Google from a mobile phone. (Fraudsters can keep a landline call open after you put the phone down and pretend to ‘pick up’ the next number you dial)
That's all well and good until she forgets.1) Dont click links in emails or text messages. If she gets a warning from PayPal etc, tell her always go and login via the normal website herself, for anything.
2) If she receives any calls, hang up and call the company back on the number on the back of her bank card/ from Google from a mobile phone. (Fraudsters can keep a landline call open after you put the phone down and pretend to ‘pick up’ the next number you dial)
Jesus.
We can thank BT for their antiquated and flawed PSTN (Public Switch telephone network) which allows scammers to spoof any number they want and keep lines open so when the victim dials out at a later time they of course are still connected to the miscreant scammer.
BT must move to a SIP/VOIP network by Dec 2025 which will prevent this from happening, although never underestimate the tenacity of a clever criminal.
My advice would be remove land line completely, change email address, set up a discrete list of website which can be accessed on an iPad or similar.
eps said:
Sorry to hear about this OP.
My father was scammed by outright thieves and effectively legitimised scammers - selling a service at an inflated price.
Firstly I would look to get LPA, Lasting Power of Attorney drawn up, ensuring that it covers both Financial and Health. Then approach her bank, with her coming along and ask them to make sure her account is indicated as a vulnerable one, so that extra checks or questions are asked or even limits. If something is legitimate it can be resolved by a phone call or meeting with the bank.
Secondly, as others have indicated try to limit the chance of her being approached by such people.
These people are scum, they have zero remorse and will happily lie or make up any story or chat to ensure they get their money. If they are legitimised scammers you will find that you will not be able to exit from the purchase or service - they are trained to stop people from stopping paying and of course if it is a service it auto-renews. ggrrrrrrr! They are amazingly persuasive if they are a legitimate business offering an awful, over priced service or an out and out scammer. They have certain social skills which they will use to persuade someone to hand over details or money whereas they wouldn't normally do so. Your mother shouldn't be made to feel 'stupid' and should share her experience with friends, only by talking about it are we likely to slow these people down. I'd love them to be stopped but it just isn't going to happen any time soon - unless something fundamental happens in banking.
An LPA doesn’t come into effect until the subject no longer has capacity.My father was scammed by outright thieves and effectively legitimised scammers - selling a service at an inflated price.
Firstly I would look to get LPA, Lasting Power of Attorney drawn up, ensuring that it covers both Financial and Health. Then approach her bank, with her coming along and ask them to make sure her account is indicated as a vulnerable one, so that extra checks or questions are asked or even limits. If something is legitimate it can be resolved by a phone call or meeting with the bank.
Secondly, as others have indicated try to limit the chance of her being approached by such people.
These people are scum, they have zero remorse and will happily lie or make up any story or chat to ensure they get their money. If they are legitimised scammers you will find that you will not be able to exit from the purchase or service - they are trained to stop people from stopping paying and of course if it is a service it auto-renews. ggrrrrrrr! They are amazingly persuasive if they are a legitimate business offering an awful, over priced service or an out and out scammer. They have certain social skills which they will use to persuade someone to hand over details or money whereas they wouldn't normally do so. Your mother shouldn't be made to feel 'stupid' and should share her experience with friends, only by talking about it are we likely to slow these people down. I'd love them to be stopped but it just isn't going to happen any time soon - unless something fundamental happens in banking.
Would she let you put her savings into a separate joint account for which she doesn’t have details. You could transfer her money virtually instantly whenever she needs it.
Joey Deacon said:
Can't you just have an account which only ever has £1000 in it and no over draft and link that to everything and use as her everyday account. That way, if she does ever get scammed in future the maximum they can ever get away with is £1000?
I did a variant of this with my MiL. I was reviewiing her finances and discovered that she had 7 credit cards with a huge credit limit in total ($45000) with a monthly spend of $600. Cancelled all but one and managed to get that limited to $2000, set up her recurring bills on line as far as possible and set up a different main bank account that was fed from a savings account.
She had early stage Alzheimer’s at the time and this worked well enough.
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