Care home fees and 25% stack in property ownership
Discussion
My mother left her 50% share in a property 4 years ago to my brother and I, the will dated back to 1989.My father is still living in the property but is now 94 and still in a good mental state. Back in 1989 there was no thought to care fees and protecting property. Last time I tried to bring up the subject of the house, power of attorney etc I got brushed off. My brother and I urgently need to change this whilst my father still has capacity. Does the will effect any care home fee issues, his savings are about £40k so would disappear fairly quickly.
In your post you say the last time you brought up the subject of POA you got brushed off, was this by your dad or brother? I'm sure you know that POA has to be agreed to by the person it's set out to cover, if your dad didn't agree then do you expect him to agree signing over POA now? There's to Health and Wealth, did ours for my wife's mother can't remember answering any questions on the will, BTW the POA office quoting 20 weeks before everything is done and sent back, reality for us was about 8 weeks but I've heard it can take longer.
It was my dad that brushed it aside, however this was whilst he was still caring for my mum and dealing with her dementia. We are 4 years on now, and some of his friends have done it recently, I've spoken to them about gently raising the subject, he also has a cleaner who he seems to listen too as well.
I'm not sure how a POA is going to 'protect' any money? Once in place it will allow you to manage his affairs like for care home fees etc but not to avoid them. If no POA and he goes into care then the Social Services will assist to get their wedge, send you a bill for his care (albeit not your liability) and then put a charge on the property if somebody lives in it. If he was the only resident they'll look to get it sold.
I expect Social Services deal with cases all the time where there is no POA already in place.
I expect Social Services deal with cases all the time where there is no POA already in place.
W124Bob said:
My mother left her 50% share in a property 4 years ago to my brother and I, the will dated back to 1989.My father is still living in the property but is now 94 and still in a good mental state. Back in 1989 there was no thought to care fees and protecting property. Last time I tried to bring up the subject of the house, power of attorney etc I got brushed off. My brother and I urgently need to change this whilst my father still has capacity. Does the will effect any care home fee issues, his savings are about £40k so would disappear fairly quickly.
Your mother willed that you and your brother should receive 50% share of the property on her death.POA has no influence on this, nor does the avoidance of care home fees, if the freehold property is jointly owned.
W124Bob said:
It was my dad that brushed it aside, however this was whilst he was still caring for my mum and dealing with her dementia. We are 4 years on now, and some of his friends have done it recently, I've spoken to them about gently raising the subject, he also has a cleaner who he seems to listen too as well.
I realise that both your parents are alive but the subject is wills and POA and I don't want to appear insensitive...Get both POA now before it is too late because they no longer have capacity.
Make them active straight away as you don't want delays going back to get them made active.
To persuade to get POA say "Dad, the POA only allows me to act on your behalf and I can only do what you agree".
Start taking over the finances NOW.
Take over email NOW.
Get account logins and passwords and note also that due to 3 factor authentication you may need the mobile phone.
You need to do this so that if they are incapacitated or deceased then you know where all the accounts are.
All this is best done from their original logged in computer/laptop.
There is not so much of a paperwork trail these days as so many financial accounts are only online and statements are never posted.
Once deceased it is just about impossible to do probate without access to email because you have no way of knowing what accounts even exist.
Sorry for the next bit...
W124Bob said:
he also has a cleaner who he seems to listen too as well.
When your mum dies he will likely want to marry the cleaner. Ask me how I know. (sorry again).So if I've got this right, you and your brother own 25% each and dad 50% and living in house on his own
If he should have to move into care LA will want to make an assessment of value of house once he's got less than about £14k in other assets. Plus value of his half of the house.
In my mums case they valued house at what I concidered a reasonable figure based on aged internal.
Valuer then took half this value halved it took 10% for selling expenses. He argued that an ivestor would be prepared to pay 25% of this value with other half owned my my self and sister.
In mums case this came to £14k, with no other assets LA confirmed that she would not have to make any contributions.
If it had been above £14k I was prepared to ask him to show me an investor who was prepared to make such an offer as we both advised that we had no intention of selling house.
Ans an aside LA very poor at following its own guidelines on how to proceed in such situations.
If he should have to move into care LA will want to make an assessment of value of house once he's got less than about £14k in other assets. Plus value of his half of the house.
In my mums case they valued house at what I concidered a reasonable figure based on aged internal.
Valuer then took half this value halved it took 10% for selling expenses. He argued that an ivestor would be prepared to pay 25% of this value with other half owned my my self and sister.
In mums case this came to £14k, with no other assets LA confirmed that she would not have to make any contributions.
If it had been above £14k I was prepared to ask him to show me an investor who was prepared to make such an offer as we both advised that we had no intention of selling house.
Ans an aside LA very poor at following its own guidelines on how to proceed in such situations.
PoA is not the be all and end.
My late father was widowed and lived alone for 6 years. It became clear to not only my wife and but his nieghbours and doctor that dad was not coping. We moved him in with ourselves as I was close to retirement and we intended to move to a bungalow in Norfolk.
I talked to dad regarding a PoA and was told 'when the time is right'.....the time was right when I asked! Dad's mental capacity fell rapidly with the onset of vascular dementia. Basically, this meant that his heartrate was too low to maintain enough blood flow to cope with both living and brain.This led to falls both at home and when out and about. Eventually after a fall at home he told the ambulance crew who had asked him how he came to fall that my wife had hit him! This meant that plod became involved. the SS obtained a 'place of safety' order and moved dad into a care home. The LA came to me asking about PoA and money. They suggested that I applied to the High Court to become dad's Deputy, this would enable me to obtain bank account control. This took time, around 6 months, and was costly, far more costly that PoA!
But once I was in control I could operate his bank account, demonstrate his holdings to the LA who agreed to take his State pension and his occupational pension, leaving us with a 'pocket money' allowence of £25pw. Dad insisted on a Daily Telegraph each day, which alone took most of that! We ended up paying for the hair cuts and toenail clippings....
So, OP, there is an alternate to PoA, but it is a long, twisty and difficult road. I managed it alone, a chat with the doctor who attended dad in the care home helped, as he was able to complete the medical assesment that the court required and I was not charged for that. I cannot remember what the court fees were, but £500+ rings bells.
Good luck!
My late father was widowed and lived alone for 6 years. It became clear to not only my wife and but his nieghbours and doctor that dad was not coping. We moved him in with ourselves as I was close to retirement and we intended to move to a bungalow in Norfolk.
I talked to dad regarding a PoA and was told 'when the time is right'.....the time was right when I asked! Dad's mental capacity fell rapidly with the onset of vascular dementia. Basically, this meant that his heartrate was too low to maintain enough blood flow to cope with both living and brain.This led to falls both at home and when out and about. Eventually after a fall at home he told the ambulance crew who had asked him how he came to fall that my wife had hit him! This meant that plod became involved. the SS obtained a 'place of safety' order and moved dad into a care home. The LA came to me asking about PoA and money. They suggested that I applied to the High Court to become dad's Deputy, this would enable me to obtain bank account control. This took time, around 6 months, and was costly, far more costly that PoA!
But once I was in control I could operate his bank account, demonstrate his holdings to the LA who agreed to take his State pension and his occupational pension, leaving us with a 'pocket money' allowence of £25pw. Dad insisted on a Daily Telegraph each day, which alone took most of that! We ended up paying for the hair cuts and toenail clippings....
So, OP, there is an alternate to PoA, but it is a long, twisty and difficult road. I managed it alone, a chat with the doctor who attended dad in the care home helped, as he was able to complete the medical assesment that the court required and I was not charged for that. I cannot remember what the court fees were, but £500+ rings bells.
Good luck!
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