Financial abandon my children, how?
Discussion
I got divorced in 2019, and basically put myself in a position of financial ruin while negotiating (badly) what happens with the house, and in particular my monthly maintenance amounts.
So I committed to £1500/month child maintenance for my 3 kids, and signed a family court agreement that stipulates that. That’s all fine and I’ve paid every month on time and the full amount, plus also helped out extra where I can, be that bus fairs etc, so financially owned my responsibilities.
The issue is I assumed that as my oldest is now 18 it would drop to the amount where I’m paying child care for two of them only, but when I approached this with my ex she said it is until they are 21.
I checked the paperwork and that’s correct, I pay child maintenance until they are 21, I was a mess at the time this all happened, literally left the family home and slept on a mattress and sat on outdoor chairs while I got back on my feet. All of this was happening and I signed this without consulting a solicitor or anything and made a pretty big commitment that now in hindsight seems unreasonable.
My eldest has a job, earns money, I paid half to get her a car, and she is reasonably independent but still lives at home, yet I will be paying 1500 for another 3 years.
I have no issue with paying for my kids, I have done reliably since the divorce, but my question is now one of my kids is working and over 18 would it be unreasonable to revisit this agreement now I’m in a better mental and emotional position and try to apply common sense, or do I suck it up, accept I’m an idiot and keep paying my ex, even as my kids get to 18, work, and even potentially move out before 21? Legally would I just get destroyed if I disputed it?
The agreement I signed is a family court doc, and I don’t know if you can revisit any of the details of one of those to make it more reasonable.
So I committed to £1500/month child maintenance for my 3 kids, and signed a family court agreement that stipulates that. That’s all fine and I’ve paid every month on time and the full amount, plus also helped out extra where I can, be that bus fairs etc, so financially owned my responsibilities.
The issue is I assumed that as my oldest is now 18 it would drop to the amount where I’m paying child care for two of them only, but when I approached this with my ex she said it is until they are 21.
I checked the paperwork and that’s correct, I pay child maintenance until they are 21, I was a mess at the time this all happened, literally left the family home and slept on a mattress and sat on outdoor chairs while I got back on my feet. All of this was happening and I signed this without consulting a solicitor or anything and made a pretty big commitment that now in hindsight seems unreasonable.
My eldest has a job, earns money, I paid half to get her a car, and she is reasonably independent but still lives at home, yet I will be paying 1500 for another 3 years.
I have no issue with paying for my kids, I have done reliably since the divorce, but my question is now one of my kids is working and over 18 would it be unreasonable to revisit this agreement now I’m in a better mental and emotional position and try to apply common sense, or do I suck it up, accept I’m an idiot and keep paying my ex, even as my kids get to 18, work, and even potentially move out before 21? Legally would I just get destroyed if I disputed it?
The agreement I signed is a family court doc, and I don’t know if you can revisit any of the details of one of those to make it more reasonable.
According to the Child Maintenance Service payments stop on the child's 16th birthday if they are not in approved education or training, or on the 31st of August after their 16th birthday if they are continuing in education. If the child remains in approved education or training, payments can continue until they turn 20.
https://www.gov.uk/child-maintenance-service/when-...
Your court order probably trumps this, I think, and you (probably) do need advice from someone who at least knows whether this is true, I would start with the CMS. You may also be able to vary the amount you pay.
What I will say, having been in a very similar position, is no amount of money saved is worth giving your ex the ammunition to say "Daddy doesn't love you" so proceed with caution.
https://www.gov.uk/child-maintenance-service/when-...
Your court order probably trumps this, I think, and you (probably) do need advice from someone who at least knows whether this is true, I would start with the CMS. You may also be able to vary the amount you pay.
What I will say, having been in a very similar position, is no amount of money saved is worth giving your ex the ammunition to say "Daddy doesn't love you" so proceed with caution.
Thanks both, I’ll try CMS as a starting point, but as you say it’ll involve me ruining the otherwise civil relationship I have with the ex, it just seems so unjust, I can’t believe I didn’t get legal representation at the time or really digest what it meant, and I can’t believe I’ll be paying when my kids are over 20 years old and probably not even living with her any more!!!
But I signed it, so my stupidity, but I do want to see if there’s a way to revisit this legally with some common sense applied.
But I signed it, so my stupidity, but I do want to see if there’s a way to revisit this legally with some common sense applied.
Now that your daughter is over 18 can you pay her directly for her share?
I don't think it is worth the aggro to go back to court pay lots of legal fees etc. For the sake of your relationship with your children, I would carry on paying but making sure it goes to the children and not the ex.
eta: this would then put the ball in her court to challenge it in court if she so felt. But how does she argue my ex is paying the children maintenance directly to our adult child rather than to me? I think the court would throw that case out (IANAL)
I don't think it is worth the aggro to go back to court pay lots of legal fees etc. For the sake of your relationship with your children, I would carry on paying but making sure it goes to the children and not the ex.
eta: this would then put the ball in her court to challenge it in court if she so felt. But how does she argue my ex is paying the children maintenance directly to our adult child rather than to me? I think the court would throw that case out (IANAL)
Have you calculated how much you have remaining to pay assuming 21 for each child?
Could work out if a solicitor and so on will be more or less than that... lol
But agreed about caution regarding how it will (be made to) look to the kids.
I guess you could always ask each of them what they are spending their £500 on - totally not to get them onto your side if she is not actually spending it on them
Could work out if a solicitor and so on will be more or less than that... lol
But agreed about caution regarding how it will (be made to) look to the kids.
I guess you could always ask each of them what they are spending their £500 on - totally not to get them onto your side if she is not actually spending it on them
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Monday 8th September 15:41
Go and see a lawyer, you can usually get one hour consultation for free. take the Family Court order, ask them.
CMS is normally until age 18 or if they are in Higher Education the end of the academic year in which they turn 18. (assumed to be August)
I would think you have a good case to have this amended, however I simply cannot understand why with so much at stake you didn't have a lawyer the first time. Usually it is very difficult to sign an agreement until both parties have had a consultation with a lawyer.
Anyway - I realise that changes nothing now, but worth mentioning in the consultation since it may give grounds for an appeal.
It’d be an extra £54k overall, but what price do I put on ruining the generally healthy interactions with the ex, and what if I lost the case, I’d be worse off financially and have ruined any relationship.
God I messed up, hindsight is a bugger. I might just get a boat and sail off into the sunset, I’m tired of playing these games.
God I messed up, hindsight is a bugger. I might just get a boat and sail off into the sunset, I’m tired of playing these games.
Gargamel said:
Go and see a lawyer, you can usually get one hour consultation for free. take the Family Court order, ask them.
CMS is normally until age 18 or if they are in Higher Education the end of the academic year in which they turn 18. (assumed to be August)
I would think you have a good case to have this amended, however I simply cannot understand why with so much at stake you didn't have a lawyer the first time. Usually it is very difficult to sign an agreement until both parties have had a consultation with a lawyer.
Anyway - I realise that changes nothing now, but worth mentioning in the consultation since it may give grounds for an appeal.
Good shout on the initial free consultation, I could gauge their confidence levels I supposeCMS is normally until age 18 or if they are in Higher Education the end of the academic year in which they turn 18. (assumed to be August)
I would think you have a good case to have this amended, however I simply cannot understand why with so much at stake you didn't have a lawyer the first time. Usually it is very difficult to sign an agreement until both parties have had a consultation with a lawyer.
Anyway - I realise that changes nothing now, but worth mentioning in the consultation since it may give grounds for an appeal.
I know nothing of these matters. However, why not consider,
a) Making a list of everything you have contributed over and above the £1,500 and keep it ready in case needed,
b) Simply reduce the monthly payment from £1,500 to £1,000 and see what happens.
This would put the ball firmly in your exes court to see if she wants the cost and aggro of chasing you around in a fight she might not win.
a) Making a list of everything you have contributed over and above the £1,500 and keep it ready in case needed,
b) Simply reduce the monthly payment from £1,500 to £1,000 and see what happens.
This would put the ball firmly in your exes court to see if she wants the cost and aggro of chasing you around in a fight she might not win.
I was slightly in the same position as you when I got divorced in that I wasn't thinking straight and didn't get a lawyer, I just went along with what my first wife and her solicitor cooked up. I found agreeing to a set amount per month (rather than a percentage of earnings) had its good and bad points over the subsequent years: at one point I wasn't earning much so had to ask to reduce the amount for a while, but later on my salary took off somewhat, but the payments stayed as specified, so it became a smaller percentage of my income.
I'm interested to find that support often ends at age 16. I stopped paying for my daughter at that age because she chose to move in with me, but the agreement for my son was to pay till he was 18.
I'm interested to find that support often ends at age 16. I stopped paying for my daughter at that age because she chose to move in with me, but the agreement for my son was to pay till he was 18.
OP, are you sure it is child maintenance and not spousal support?
My understanding was always that an amount for child maintenance couldn't be specified in the Court Order as it would be overruled by whatever the CMS calculated the figure to be eg. how could you be expected to pay £1,500 a month if you were unemployed and only in receipt of Jobseekers Allowance...
Whilst I would certainly recommend seeking legal advice, I would recommend checking on the CMS calculator what your payments for the other 2 children would be to ensure you don't find they calculate your monthly payments as being higher than the £1,500 a month your already paying. I found myself paying around that amount for one child.
Finally I would say, do not underestimate the lengths your ex will go to in order to hold onto every penny of that child maintenance. When I proposed having my son an extra couple of days a week, I lost access to him for 9 months and it was the start of 3 years of legal battles and £50k in legal fees all because she was scared she'd lose a couple of hundred a month in Child maintenance (which I'd have paid regardless if she'd been honest at the time). Ironically, he lives with me now and she pays me child maintenance (or is meant to at least).
My understanding was always that an amount for child maintenance couldn't be specified in the Court Order as it would be overruled by whatever the CMS calculated the figure to be eg. how could you be expected to pay £1,500 a month if you were unemployed and only in receipt of Jobseekers Allowance...
Whilst I would certainly recommend seeking legal advice, I would recommend checking on the CMS calculator what your payments for the other 2 children would be to ensure you don't find they calculate your monthly payments as being higher than the £1,500 a month your already paying. I found myself paying around that amount for one child.
Finally I would say, do not underestimate the lengths your ex will go to in order to hold onto every penny of that child maintenance. When I proposed having my son an extra couple of days a week, I lost access to him for 9 months and it was the start of 3 years of legal battles and £50k in legal fees all because she was scared she'd lose a couple of hundred a month in Child maintenance (which I'd have paid regardless if she'd been honest at the time). Ironically, he lives with me now and she pays me child maintenance (or is meant to at least).
Help78 said:
Finally I would say, do not underestimate the lengths your ex will go to in order to hold onto every penny of that child maintenance. When I proposed having my son an extra couple of days a week, I lost access to him for 9 months and it was the start of 3 years of legal battles and £50k in legal fees all because she was scared she'd lose a couple of hundred a month in Child maintenance (which I'd have paid regardless if she'd been honest at the time). Ironically, he lives with me now and she pays me child maintenance (or is meant to at least).
This, timely thread as my oldest has just turned 18 and is now in full time employment. I have told my ex that I am happy to continue paying for her until the end of the year and then we have to have a discussion.The reality is starting to kick in I think, as she has lost child allowance for the eldest, is about to lose my child benefit and in two years time the youngest will be 18 and out of full time education.
That is before the 50% of everything (train fares, school uniform, tutors) etc. that I pay on top of that. I have just been playing the long game, paying without questioning it.
I suspect once she no longer gets any money from me she will be losing a third of her monthly income.
Oh well, going to be a celebration in my household in two years time. I will feel wealthy for the first time since the children were born.
You having to pay until 21 seems wrong, it should be 18 unless they are in full time education (not university).
Help78 said:
OP, are you sure it is child maintenance and not spousal support?
My understanding was always that an amount for child maintenance couldn't be specified in the Court Order as it would be overruled by whatever the CMS calculated the figure to be eg. how could you be expected to pay £1,500 a month if you were unemployed and only in receipt of Jobseekers Allowance...
Whilst I would certainly recommend seeking legal advice, I would recommend checking on the CMS calculator what your payments for the other 2 children would be to ensure you don't find they calculate your monthly payments as being higher than the £1,500 a month your already paying. I found myself paying around that amount for one child.
Finally I would say, do not underestimate the lengths your ex will go to in order to hold onto every penny of that child maintenance. When I proposed having my son an extra couple of days a week, I lost access to him for 9 months and it was the start of 3 years of legal battles and £50k in legal fees all because she was scared she'd lose a couple of hundred a month in Child maintenance (which I'd have paid regardless if she'd been honest at the time). Ironically, he lives with me now and she pays me child maintenance (or is meant to at least).
Actually that would make more sense (spousal support). Since she has the house the three children are still living at home.My understanding was always that an amount for child maintenance couldn't be specified in the Court Order as it would be overruled by whatever the CMS calculated the figure to be eg. how could you be expected to pay £1,500 a month if you were unemployed and only in receipt of Jobseekers Allowance...
Whilst I would certainly recommend seeking legal advice, I would recommend checking on the CMS calculator what your payments for the other 2 children would be to ensure you don't find they calculate your monthly payments as being higher than the £1,500 a month your already paying. I found myself paying around that amount for one child.
Finally I would say, do not underestimate the lengths your ex will go to in order to hold onto every penny of that child maintenance. When I proposed having my son an extra couple of days a week, I lost access to him for 9 months and it was the start of 3 years of legal battles and £50k in legal fees all because she was scared she'd lose a couple of hundred a month in Child maintenance (which I'd have paid regardless if she'd been honest at the time). Ironically, he lives with me now and she pays me child maintenance (or is meant to at least).
Thanks, may well be, the letter references the Matrimonial causes act 1973 and also mentions the decree absolute, so I assume that is less to do with child maintenance and the agreement sits outside of that?
It specifically calls out how much ( or in this case, little) of the house I get when it sells, and the £1500/ month I have to pay, but I suppose that could constitute spousal support?
Not sure if that puts me in a worse or better position, though maybe I bite the bullet and suffer through 3 more years, and another 9 in terms of my youngest.
It specifically calls out how much ( or in this case, little) of the house I get when it sells, and the £1500/ month I have to pay, but I suppose that could constitute spousal support?
Not sure if that puts me in a worse or better position, though maybe I bite the bullet and suffer through 3 more years, and another 9 in terms of my youngest.
I have a similar sounding order that means I pay a fixed sum monthly until the youngest of our two children leaves secondary level education, which assuming she completes on normal timescales, would mean the end of the academic year when she's 18 and a half. At that point the older child will be nearly 24. However the oldest child is autistic and unlikely to be very independent by then, although she could have moved into LA funded assisted living.
It's structured in such a way that the payment is classified as 'global' meaning its a combined child and spouse maintenance payment, without stipulating the split, therefore if the child support entitlement were to taper off it just becomes spousal instead.
There's also a term which says that if a CMS order comes into play, the maintenance becomes a 'top up' to the same fixed monthly sum. Therefore if she wanted to engage the CMS and they order me to pay less, she gets the same amount anyway, and if they order more then she gets that instead.
Luckily we went through a period before the court order when she did try using the CMS despite my protests, and even she came to the conclusion that its far better avoiding dealing with them. I remember 3 brown CMS envelopes all hitting the mat on the same morning each ordering a different sum of money to be paid.
My solicitor when the order was made told me that any variation would need to be based on some material change in circumstances that was unforeseen at the time the order was made.
Bear in mind cost to apply to the court, with legal bills, is rapidly going to eat into the £54k and she could use the opportunity to present her case for needing an upward, not downward variation. Are the payments index linked for example? Mine are fixed and if we were going back to court for a variation my ex could very reasonably argue that inflation has eroded the payments significantly.
If your order is anything like mine, its probably better not to rock the boat.
It's structured in such a way that the payment is classified as 'global' meaning its a combined child and spouse maintenance payment, without stipulating the split, therefore if the child support entitlement were to taper off it just becomes spousal instead.
There's also a term which says that if a CMS order comes into play, the maintenance becomes a 'top up' to the same fixed monthly sum. Therefore if she wanted to engage the CMS and they order me to pay less, she gets the same amount anyway, and if they order more then she gets that instead.
Luckily we went through a period before the court order when she did try using the CMS despite my protests, and even she came to the conclusion that its far better avoiding dealing with them. I remember 3 brown CMS envelopes all hitting the mat on the same morning each ordering a different sum of money to be paid.
My solicitor when the order was made told me that any variation would need to be based on some material change in circumstances that was unforeseen at the time the order was made.
Bear in mind cost to apply to the court, with legal bills, is rapidly going to eat into the £54k and she could use the opportunity to present her case for needing an upward, not downward variation. Are the payments index linked for example? Mine are fixed and if we were going back to court for a variation my ex could very reasonably argue that inflation has eroded the payments significantly.
If your order is anything like mine, its probably better not to rock the boat.
Help78 said:
It sounds like your partner could have gone after you for Child Maintenance in addition to the £1,500 so think yourself lucky and keep quiet.
Whilst double checking with a decent lawyer.
It depends on how it's written. Since it's tied to the children's age that seems unlikely.Whilst double checking with a decent lawyer.
Mine was written so that it said neither of us would use the CMS, with some legal verbiage about an order restarting each year (to counter the legal mandate that CMS cannot be excluded for more than a year at a time).
Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff