Discussion
Evening all looking for some advice as I am sure we can't be the only ones that have struggled with this!
Background is that my mother-in-law passed away at the end of last year. She had a fairly sizeable estate and there is some inheritance tax owing that needs to be paid before we can progress through probate.
So we have done all the HMRC stuff, and they have given us the bill to be paid, she had savings in NS&I which is enough to cover the amount owed so the plan was to use that, pay the bill, and crack on with probate.
This is where we have a problem...there is a form (IHT423) that you fill in and send to NS&I and they then transfer the money owed to HMRC and clear the tax owing. It's been a few weeks, and we haven't heard anything so my wife called up this evening to see what the progress is. The call centre guy has then told her that the death needs to be registered before it can be processed and the way to do that is to fill in an on-line claim form.
This is where we are struggling...we can't fill in the claim form because it says my wife needs to be legally entitled to claim any funds before we do...and without probate I don't believe she is. And even if she did fill out the form (which asks where any funds should be transferred to) and claimed any funds, there then wouldn't be enough to actually pay the IHT bill
This all seems very circular and I am thinking the call centre guy just has it wrong and that form is only filled in after probate...but there seems to be no other way of letting NS&I know about the death.
Sorry...long post, probably very dull...but anyone else been through this?!
Background is that my mother-in-law passed away at the end of last year. She had a fairly sizeable estate and there is some inheritance tax owing that needs to be paid before we can progress through probate.
So we have done all the HMRC stuff, and they have given us the bill to be paid, she had savings in NS&I which is enough to cover the amount owed so the plan was to use that, pay the bill, and crack on with probate.
This is where we have a problem...there is a form (IHT423) that you fill in and send to NS&I and they then transfer the money owed to HMRC and clear the tax owing. It's been a few weeks, and we haven't heard anything so my wife called up this evening to see what the progress is. The call centre guy has then told her that the death needs to be registered before it can be processed and the way to do that is to fill in an on-line claim form.
This is where we are struggling...we can't fill in the claim form because it says my wife needs to be legally entitled to claim any funds before we do...and without probate I don't believe she is. And even if she did fill out the form (which asks where any funds should be transferred to) and claimed any funds, there then wouldn't be enough to actually pay the IHT bill
This all seems very circular and I am thinking the call centre guy just has it wrong and that form is only filled in after probate...but there seems to be no other way of letting NS&I know about the death.
Sorry...long post, probably very dull...but anyone else been through this?!
Bit confused as first you say there was sufficient with NS&I to meet the IHT bill and then there wasn’t ?
Had you previously let them know about the death along with a copy of the death certificate or was this the first contact with them ?
The last estate I was Executor for , the IHT 400 was the main form submitted for probate with then as you say the 423 being used for the transfer of tax due.
I used funds in a Nationwide bank account though.
NS can be a real pain to deal with but I wonder if the type of account held with them is the issue ?
Had you previously let them know about the death along with a copy of the death certificate or was this the first contact with them ?
The last estate I was Executor for , the IHT 400 was the main form submitted for probate with then as you say the 423 being used for the transfer of tax due.
I used funds in a Nationwide bank account though.
NS can be a real pain to deal with but I wonder if the type of account held with them is the issue ?
mathmos said:
we can't fill in the claim form because it says my wife needs to be legally entitled to claim any funds before we do...and without probate I don't believe she is.
Wouldn't the Will state what she's entitled to? Being entitled to receive something isn't the same as actually receiving it.Simpo Two said:
mathmos said:
we can't fill in the claim form because it says my wife needs to be legally entitled to claim any funds before we do...and without probate I don't believe she is.
Wouldn't the Will state what she's entitled to? Being entitled to receive something isn't the same as actually receiving it.ETA
This is the page for submitting the initial notification of death etc. As alscar said the problem may be whether or not this is your initial communication to them. Hopefully it won’t be too tricky to resolve. BRM.
https://forms.nsandi.com/gateway/online-forms/inde...
Edited by Minglar on Friday 29th May 09:30
For the estate I am currently administering as one of two executors, the deceased had the max PB holding. We advised NS&I of the death promptly and were aware that nothing would be paid to us until we obtained probate. This was received maybe 6 months after the date of death, and we received payment (the max holding and prizes accrued since the date of death) from NS&I 6 months later, so about a year after the date of death. Seems to be about par for the course with NS&I according to the media.
R.
R.
Maybe this is where we are getting confused....the NS&I page, including the link that Minglar kindly put in their replies clearly states claim not notify
Every other institution we have had to deal with very clearly has "Notify" process, then they generally ask for the death cert and ask where you want any funds transferred to.
The concern we have is that if you complete that NS&I "claim" form you have to put in the payment details of where you want any money sent to...if we submit that, and NS&I process it and then send any funds out, then there then presumably the accounts would then be empty.
And to clarify...there is enough to pay the IHT from NS&I now...but if we sumbit a "claim" form and NS&I send funds to a beneficiary the accounts would then presumably be empty, and there wouldn't be enough in NS&I to pay the IHT (but then the money would be somewhere else...it would just delay everything).
We are maybe putting 2 and 2 together and making 5...maybe that NS&I badly worded "claim" form is actually the notification form and it won't trigger any movement of funds?
Every other institution we have had to deal with very clearly has "Notify" process, then they generally ask for the death cert and ask where you want any funds transferred to.
The concern we have is that if you complete that NS&I "claim" form you have to put in the payment details of where you want any money sent to...if we submit that, and NS&I process it and then send any funds out, then there then presumably the accounts would then be empty.
And to clarify...there is enough to pay the IHT from NS&I now...but if we sumbit a "claim" form and NS&I send funds to a beneficiary the accounts would then presumably be empty, and there wouldn't be enough in NS&I to pay the IHT (but then the money would be somewhere else...it would just delay everything).
We are maybe putting 2 and 2 together and making 5...maybe that NS&I badly worded "claim" form is actually the notification form and it won't trigger any movement of funds?
mathmos said:
Maybe this is where we are getting confused....the NS&I page, including the link that Minglar kindly put in their replies clearly states claim not notify
Every other institution we have had to deal with very clearly has "Notify" process, then they generally ask for the death cert and ask where you want any funds transferred to.
The concern we have is that if you complete that NS&I "claim" form you have to put in the payment details of where you want any money sent to...if we submit that, and NS&I process it and then send any funds out, then there then presumably the accounts would then be empty.
And to clarify...there is enough to pay the IHT from NS&I now...but if we sumbit a "claim" form and NS&I send funds to a beneficiary the accounts would then presumably be empty, and there wouldn't be enough in NS&I to pay the IHT (but then the money would be somewhere else...it would just delay everything).
We are maybe putting 2 and 2 together and making 5...maybe that NS&I badly worded "claim" form is actually the notification form and it won't trigger any movement of funds?
I think your last statement may be the crux of the issue. Even though it says claim form, it’s actually the form you need to use to make the initial notification to them of the death. At some point during completion of said form you need to upload a copy of the death certificate too. Once that’s completed they send you the necessary forms by post to complete, which you can’t really do until Probate is granted. That’s when recipient bank details are included etc. It’s not at all clear but that’s what I did. I tried to call them initially to notify them of the death and they flatly refused to do it over the phone, and directed me to their website. I’ve only recently sent back the manual documents including my Grant, but I requested the PBs be left in the draw for twelve months after death, so I would expect repayment will be delayed until after the anniversary. BRM. Every other institution we have had to deal with very clearly has "Notify" process, then they generally ask for the death cert and ask where you want any funds transferred to.
The concern we have is that if you complete that NS&I "claim" form you have to put in the payment details of where you want any money sent to...if we submit that, and NS&I process it and then send any funds out, then there then presumably the accounts would then be empty.
And to clarify...there is enough to pay the IHT from NS&I now...but if we sumbit a "claim" form and NS&I send funds to a beneficiary the accounts would then presumably be empty, and there wouldn't be enough in NS&I to pay the IHT (but then the money would be somewhere else...it would just delay everything).
We are maybe putting 2 and 2 together and making 5...maybe that NS&I badly worded "claim" form is actually the notification form and it won't trigger any movement of funds?
mathmos said:
OK thanks Minglar....we've submitted the form...hopefully they will get on and get the IHT paid so we can get on with probate
Hopefully that will work. To be fair so far they have been fairly easy to deal with. They even answered a few questions I had by email before I sent the final documents in. But it’s a government agency and it could simply be they are being awkward as one part of the loop may have been missed. So fingers crossed and good luck. BRM. mathmos said:
And to clarify...there is enough to pay the IHT from NS&I now...but if we sumbit a "claim" form and NS&I send funds to a beneficiary the accounts would then presumably be empty, and there wouldn't be enough in NS&I to pay the IHT (but then the money would be somewhere else...it would just delay everything).
No way would they send directly to a beneficiary. Do NS even have a bereavement team which I’ve found with other institutions is a much quicker and less stressful way of getting what needs done.
As I mentioned earlier I’d certainly be looking at paying the IHT from another account not with them if at all possible.
Hopefully you can make your 2plus2 equal 4 but if all else fails with them ( either due to “ your “ misunderstandings or their usual” unhelpfulness”) it maybe worth a complaint if only to get them working harder !
Best of luck in resolving.
As I mentioned earlier I’d certainly be looking at paying the IHT from another account not with them if at all possible.
Hopefully you can make your 2plus2 equal 4 but if all else fails with them ( either due to “ your “ misunderstandings or their usual” unhelpfulness”) it maybe worth a complaint if only to get them working harder !
Best of luck in resolving.
Sheepshanks said:
mathmos said:
And to clarify...there is enough to pay the IHT from NS&I now...but if we sumbit a "claim" form and NS&I send funds to a beneficiary the accounts would then presumably be empty, and there wouldn't be enough in NS&I to pay the IHT (but then the money would be somewhere else...it would just delay everything).
No way would they send directly to a beneficiary. Not sure whether you are aware or whether this is helpful but there has been a huge scandal in relation to the way NS&I communicate with and pay out bereaved relatives.
Guardian Article
Guardian Article
alscar said:
Sheepshanks said:
mathmos said:
And to clarify...there is enough to pay the IHT from NS&I now...but if we sumbit a "claim" form and NS&I send funds to a beneficiary the accounts would then presumably be empty, and there wouldn't be enough in NS&I to pay the IHT (but then the money would be somewhere else...it would just delay everything).
No way would they send directly to a beneficiary. He said he's handling the estate - but is he an Executor? As you said earlier, likely his wife is, and he might be merging her positions as Executor and Beneficiary, which he really shouldn't do.
Sheepshanks said:
If that was the case he wouldn't be bothered about being sent the money - he could use it to pay the IHT.
He said he's handling the estate - but is he an Executor? As you said earlier, likely his wife is, and he might be merging her positions as Executor and Beneficiary, which he really shouldn't do.
That’s a very good point and it’s crucial too. Often the Executor(s) and Beneficiaries(s) are one and the same from the point of view as per any Will. But with a Probate application only the Executor(s) can apply unless POA is given. In my case there was one Executor and she is also the sole Beneficiary but she didn’t want to get involved so we completed form PA11 as part of the Probate application and I have been given the power to administer the Estate as her attorney. It’s actually a Letter of Administration but she is also named on the document. With most financial institutions it is critical to get this stuff sorted out properly before making any claims. BRM. He said he's handling the estate - but is he an Executor? As you said earlier, likely his wife is, and he might be merging her positions as Executor and Beneficiary, which he really shouldn't do.
My mum had NS&I Premium Bonds and also one of their Saving Bonds.
We opted to pay mums IHT from her NS&I Savings Bond as we were aware that they are a pain to deal with to obtain money after probate. May as well let HMRC deal directly with them, and means we will only be fighting for a smaller amount of money from them when probate is granted. Plus her Premium Bonds remain active for a set period following her death, and she has had a few wins since.
We opted to pay mums IHT from her NS&I Savings Bond as we were aware that they are a pain to deal with to obtain money after probate. May as well let HMRC deal directly with them, and means we will only be fighting for a smaller amount of money from them when probate is granted. Plus her Premium Bonds remain active for a set period following her death, and she has had a few wins since.
Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff