Boiler, heat store and system advice
Discussion
Hi,
I am getting an extension and work done to the rest of the house and this includes a new boiler and hot water tank which will all go in the loft to free up cupboard space.
It will be a gas boiler and I want to hook it up to a heat store/accumulator with a solar water heater and possibly will be connected to a wood burning stove. It is for a 3 bed semi which will have two bathrooms (1 with bath/shower and the other just a shower) and kitchen. I don't want power showers if I can avoid it.
I am a little concerned that the builder has said his plumber will have to speak to Valiant (the company he uses for boilers) about specifying the heat store and probably solar water heater that that is a very expensive route. I thought you would just buy a Gledhill thermal store, best boiler and a solar panel from wherever and put them together. What do you think the best way of setting up such a system would be and to get best deal?
Also does anyone have any advice about which thermal stores, boilers are best? A good place to buy solar water heaters (Navitron?)?
Thank you,
Simon
I am getting an extension and work done to the rest of the house and this includes a new boiler and hot water tank which will all go in the loft to free up cupboard space.
It will be a gas boiler and I want to hook it up to a heat store/accumulator with a solar water heater and possibly will be connected to a wood burning stove. It is for a 3 bed semi which will have two bathrooms (1 with bath/shower and the other just a shower) and kitchen. I don't want power showers if I can avoid it.
I am a little concerned that the builder has said his plumber will have to speak to Valiant (the company he uses for boilers) about specifying the heat store and probably solar water heater that that is a very expensive route. I thought you would just buy a Gledhill thermal store, best boiler and a solar panel from wherever and put them together. What do you think the best way of setting up such a system would be and to get best deal?
Also does anyone have any advice about which thermal stores, boilers are best? A good place to buy solar water heaters (Navitron?)?
Thank you,
Simon
Please tell me you are not considering a Gledhill Boilermate?
Awful, over complicated designs, which are a bugger to work on!
As Ferg said, every installer will have their own preference. I personally only have installation experience with Worcester. Although I've only ever coupled them with an unvented cylinder, not a thermal store.
The panels themselves are very robust and easy to fit, the pumping station is in one tidy unit, including all control valves, non-return valves etc.
I found the whole system easy to install but a bit tricky to commission.
Worcester Technical Support can be hit and miss, sometimes they are very helpful and knowledgeable, other times you realise they are reading the Installation Manual out to you over the phone and don't have any idea about what you are asking them.
Awful, over complicated designs, which are a bugger to work on!
As Ferg said, every installer will have their own preference. I personally only have installation experience with Worcester. Although I've only ever coupled them with an unvented cylinder, not a thermal store.
The panels themselves are very robust and easy to fit, the pumping station is in one tidy unit, including all control valves, non-return valves etc.
I found the whole system easy to install but a bit tricky to commission.
Worcester Technical Support can be hit and miss, sometimes they are very helpful and knowledgeable, other times you realise they are reading the Installation Manual out to you over the phone and don't have any idea about what you are asking them.
If you're definitely going to hook a woodburner up, it's worth having a thermal store. If it's just gas and solar, I'm not so sure tbh.
The Vaillant solution (they don't do stores afaik) will potentially be very good, but very expensive and very limited, and I'm not sure they even have a cylinder that'd take a woodburner and solar and gas - you'd need 3 coils in a hot water cylinder.
You can ebay and google and get a system together for a hell of a lot less.
Navitron is always worth a read - their panels are cheap and spares are available.
Re the thermal store suppliers, DPS have gone bump I believe, and Gledhill *may* have too?
Our store is Advance Appliances - sealed system type, stainless steel and seems well made. If you do get one, over-order on the tappings and sensor pockets - then you've more flexibility for the future.
The Vaillant solution (they don't do stores afaik) will potentially be very good, but very expensive and very limited, and I'm not sure they even have a cylinder that'd take a woodburner and solar and gas - you'd need 3 coils in a hot water cylinder.
You can ebay and google and get a system together for a hell of a lot less.
Navitron is always worth a read - their panels are cheap and spares are available.
Re the thermal store suppliers, DPS have gone bump I believe, and Gledhill *may* have too?
Our store is Advance Appliances - sealed system type, stainless steel and seems well made. If you do get one, over-order on the tappings and sensor pockets - then you've more flexibility for the future.
Gingerbread Man said:
andy43 said:
...I'm not sure they even have a cylinder that'd take a woodburner and solar and gas - you'd need 3 coils in a hot water cylinder.
But the heat sources would be direct to the heat store and the hot water would be indirect via coil.
Gingerbread Man said:
But the heat sources would be direct to the heat store and the hot water would be indirect via coil.
Can the two heat sources (wood burner and Boiler) mix via a thermal store? I thought they would have to be seperate systems?Also can you get Thermal Stores with a coil for indirectly heating the store?
I've not had much experience of Thermal Stores, but they seem like quite good ideas.
Ricky_M said:
Gingerbread Man said:
But the heat sources would be direct to the heat store and the hot water would be indirect via coil.
Can the two heat sources (wood burner and Boiler) mix via a thermal store? I thought they would have to be seperate systems?Also can you get Thermal Stores with a coil for indirectly heating the store?
I've not had much experience of Thermal Stores, but they seem like quite good ideas.
With this store you could have the boiler tapped direct (open vented, directly heating) into the cylinder or via a coil (unvented, indirectly heating). The wood burner goes in direct also. This has to be open vented though due to it's uncontrollable nature.
Solar also has a coil as I forgot to mention.
Immersion heater in the side for back up.
Then another coil for the hot water. This comes out via a mixing valve to get back down to ~65.
You can also spec underfloor take off's as well.
They seem quite good really and I think they will start to become a more common place as renewables become more widely used. You can spec them straight from the manufacture to use the heat sources you have available, so customisable. Different sources tap in at different levels, all comes labelled up. Ours came with the F&E as well.
I'll find a few pictures of setups for you.
Edited by Gingerbread Man on Wednesday 29th June 21:44
andy43 said:
Gingerbread Man said:
andy43 said:
...I'm not sure they even have a cylinder that'd take a woodburner and solar and gas - you'd need 3 coils in a hot water cylinder.
But the heat sources would be direct to the heat store and the hot water would be indirect via coil.
Gingerbread Man said:
We fitted a Gledhill Torrent RE Solar thermal store.
With this store you could have the boiler tapped direct (open vented, directly heating) into the cylinder or via a coil (unvented, indirectly heating). The wood burner goes in direct also. This has to be open vented though due to it's uncontrollable nature.
Solar also has a coil as I forgot to mention.
Immersion heater in the side for back up.
Then another coil for the hot water. This comes out via a mixing valve to get back down to ~65.
You can also spec underfloor take off's as well.
They seem quite good really and I think they will start to become a more common place as renewables become more widely used. You can spec them straight from the manufacture to use the heat sources you have available, so customisable. Different sources tap in at different levels, all comes labelled up. Ours came with the F&E as well.
I'll find a few pictures of setups for you.
I think I've seen one of these in a customer's house, looks very complex, but is actually a fairly simple design!With this store you could have the boiler tapped direct (open vented, directly heating) into the cylinder or via a coil (unvented, indirectly heating). The wood burner goes in direct also. This has to be open vented though due to it's uncontrollable nature.
Solar also has a coil as I forgot to mention.
Immersion heater in the side for back up.
Then another coil for the hot water. This comes out via a mixing valve to get back down to ~65.
You can also spec underfloor take off's as well.
They seem quite good really and I think they will start to become a more common place as renewables become more widely used. You can spec them straight from the manufacture to use the heat sources you have available, so customisable. Different sources tap in at different levels, all comes labelled up. Ours came with the F&E as well.
I'll find a few pictures of setups for you.
Edited by Gingerbread Man on Wednesday 29th June 21:44
Are all the controls, pumps etc wired up externally or controlled by a built in PCB? This is my biggest gripe with the Gledhill Boilermates.
The Boilermates were/are a nightmare from what I've read, but other than a couple of cylinder thermostats and some sensors for the solar setup, all external wiring, no clever circuit boards are needed with a thermal store, unless you want to add stuff. It's as complex as you want to make it I suppose.
I've put two cylinder stats with a relay on ours, so it runs the boiler harder for longer each time, and to contrast with GingerbreadMan, our hot water is from an external plate heat exchanger, fed by a central heating 'shunt' pump operated by a flowswitch - slightly more complex than a coil but copes with 2 showers at once. Store is also part of a sealed heating system, due to no loft (dormers) for a header tank. Direct rads, ufh and boiler, coils for wbs and solar. When it's finished :sigh:
The wbs will be on it's own little pumped sealed system too - it's europe-designed to run pressurised, with a quenching coil to cool the wbs if something goes wrong eg pump failure, plus I've added a UPS in case of power cuts. Quite enjoying learning about stuff like this, plus I can say I have a Plant Room
I've put two cylinder stats with a relay on ours, so it runs the boiler harder for longer each time, and to contrast with GingerbreadMan, our hot water is from an external plate heat exchanger, fed by a central heating 'shunt' pump operated by a flowswitch - slightly more complex than a coil but copes with 2 showers at once. Store is also part of a sealed heating system, due to no loft (dormers) for a header tank. Direct rads, ufh and boiler, coils for wbs and solar. When it's finished :sigh:
The wbs will be on it's own little pumped sealed system too - it's europe-designed to run pressurised, with a quenching coil to cool the wbs if something goes wrong eg pump failure, plus I've added a UPS in case of power cuts. Quite enjoying learning about stuff like this, plus I can say I have a Plant Room
andy43 said:
The Boilermates were/are a nightmare from what I've read.:
Like you wouldn't believe. They also made a Gas Boiler equivalent called the Gulfstream.Its a condensing thermal store combination boiler with solar.
There's a housing estate near Newport in South Wales fitted with them, they are huge, I'm 6ft 4 and needed a ladder to work on one!
At one point we were repaired 5 of them within a month on the same street! The houses are less than 4 years old and many residents have removed them and fitted an unvented cylinder and boiler instead!
Thank you for your advice. I was thinking of the Gledhill Torrent thermal store rather than the Boilermate.
Gingerbread man and Andy43 would you mind giving me a rough idea of what you spent so I have something to work off?
I was hoping to put it all in the loft space does anyone see any problems with that?
Thank you again,
Simon
Gingerbread man and Andy43 would you mind giving me a rough idea of what you spent so I have something to work off?
I was hoping to put it all in the loft space does anyone see any problems with that?
Thank you again,
Simon
I know Navitron used to custom build you a cylinder to suit, as many coils as you like with fittings where you want them for no real premium on price. Previously they have used http://www.newarkcoppercylinder.co.uk/ to manufacture as that is the label on the one here.
YarisSi said:
Thank you for your advice. I was thinking of the Gledhill Torrent thermal store rather than the Boilermate.
Gingerbread man and Andy43 would you mind giving me a rough idea of what you spent so I have something to work off?
I was hoping to put it all in the loft space does anyone see any problems with that?
Thank you again,
Simon
Not sure on price to be honest as it was part of a big job we did (central heating, boiler, thermal store), as opposed to a job I paid to have done.Gingerbread man and Andy43 would you mind giving me a rough idea of what you spent so I have something to work off?
I was hoping to put it all in the loft space does anyone see any problems with that?
Thank you again,
Simon
As regards to fitting in a loft. You'll need to make sure you can fit the expansion tank and vent pipe above the thermal store. These stores tend to be quite tall at ~1.5m high.
jollysoutherner said:
I know Navitron used to custom build you a cylinder to suit, as many coils as you like with fittings where you want them for no real premium on price. Previously they have used http://www.newarkcoppercylinder.co.uk/ to manufacture as that is the label on the one here.
Thank you for that. What is the difference between the two thermal stores please (cylinder and combination type):
http://www.newarkcoppercylinder.co.uk/cylinders/so...
and also between the solar thermal store and thermal store here:
http://www.newarkcoppercylinder.co.uk/cylinders/th...
Sorry if I am being dim.
Thank you
Edited by YarisSi on Friday 1st July 00:07
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff