Listed building sign off?
Discussion
I know I am boring you all with the various issues I am having with my impending purchase but there is one overarching problem I would welcome some advice on from anyone with any planning or listed builiding experience.
The house is a redevelopment of a 2* listed building being carried out by developers quite inexperienced in such projects who usually build blocks of flats and small housing estates. The exterior view is the listed aspect and the interior is a pretty much total revamp.
Basically I spent Thursday going through 400+ pages of planning docs . There are numerous differences between what I am seeing on site and the plans/consents. Some are layout changes (they have installed the staircase a meter to the right, and changed the position of ensuites etc). Others I think will have listed building implications: They have installed solid wooden external doors when stable doors with vision panels were specified in the latest plans. Thave not left certain ares of internal stone work exposed as was required in the earlier detailed listed building documents and all of the external paintwork is not in the colour specified by the planners. They have changed materials used in access roads and removed roof windows (which I actually think is an improvement). The list could go on and on.
Questions:
Can developers just change room lay outs which are not part of the listed building without telling the council and getting permissions? I am thinking about things like moving the staircase, the utility rooms and ensuites which have been removed or moved around the ground floor.
I have sent my solicitor a list of differences but that list keeps growing and I wonder if it might just be easier just to get the council to sign it off as OK by inspecting with the developer?
I am trying to avoid a situation where I move in and the council come to me insisting I take the plaster off the living room wall to expose the stonework or reinstall the exterior doors.
The house is a redevelopment of a 2* listed building being carried out by developers quite inexperienced in such projects who usually build blocks of flats and small housing estates. The exterior view is the listed aspect and the interior is a pretty much total revamp.
Basically I spent Thursday going through 400+ pages of planning docs . There are numerous differences between what I am seeing on site and the plans/consents. Some are layout changes (they have installed the staircase a meter to the right, and changed the position of ensuites etc). Others I think will have listed building implications: They have installed solid wooden external doors when stable doors with vision panels were specified in the latest plans. Thave not left certain ares of internal stone work exposed as was required in the earlier detailed listed building documents and all of the external paintwork is not in the colour specified by the planners. They have changed materials used in access roads and removed roof windows (which I actually think is an improvement). The list could go on and on.
Questions:
Can developers just change room lay outs which are not part of the listed building without telling the council and getting permissions? I am thinking about things like moving the staircase, the utility rooms and ensuites which have been removed or moved around the ground floor.
I have sent my solicitor a list of differences but that list keeps growing and I wonder if it might just be easier just to get the council to sign it off as OK by inspecting with the developer?
I am trying to avoid a situation where I move in and the council come to me insisting I take the plaster off the living room wall to expose the stonework or reinstall the exterior doors.
Usually the planning officer would make regular visits during the build and pick up on these changes. Hopefully this has happened and stuff agreed.
To be frank I think you may be in deep deep doo-da abd struggle to get the exterior work signed up.
I'll post some of my experiences later.
To be frank I think you may be in deep deep doo-da abd struggle to get the exterior work signed up.
I'll post some of my experiences later.
dickymint said:
Usually the planning officer would make regular visits during the build and pick up on these changes. Hopefully this has happened and stuff agreed.
To be frank I think you may be in deep deep doo-da abd struggle to get the exterior work signed up.
I'll post some of my experiences later.
Thanks, I can see some work that looks like it has improved the site which may have been agreed (limestone chippings instead of tarmac plannings, no bollards and removing the velux; darker inside but the frontage is now 'intact' as an 18th century building.To be frank I think you may be in deep deep doo-da abd struggle to get the exterior work signed up.
I'll post some of my experiences later.
Cogcog said:
The exterior view is the listed aspect and the interior is a pretty much total revamp.
I understood that the entire building is listed - it may be that the listing makes particular mention of the exterior, but the listing applies to the whole building and curtilage. I'd be talking to the planners and conservation officer as a matter of urgency.
My local pub (grade 2) fitted a huge covered gazebo out the back. I warned them at the time on no account fix it to the builing - they fixed it to the builing.
One of the neighbours grassed them up (long running dispute). Planners came round and not only condemned the gazebo but noticed a conservatory had been added to the end of the pub accessable via the pub. They now have to demolish it or spend a small fortune making it "in keeping". Even though it's been their about 20 years!!
One of the neighbours grassed them up (long running dispute). Planners came round and not only condemned the gazebo but noticed a conservatory had been added to the end of the pub accessable via the pub. They now have to demolish it or spend a small fortune making it "in keeping". Even though it's been their about 20 years!!
As Sam_68 says, speak to the local conservation officer, if necessary get him to visit site with you to outline what complies and what doesn't.
Grade 2* is more onerous than Grade 2 and can be fairly close to Grade 1. We have some friends who have bought a grade 2* house, and it's not only the house that is covered (inside and out) but the barns/stable block and the walled garden! Part of the stable block roof is falling down and they have been warned by the conservation officer that they will be liable for prosecution if it does fully fall down!
What is key is the state that the building was in when it was listed.
Grade 2* is more onerous than Grade 2 and can be fairly close to Grade 1. We have some friends who have bought a grade 2* house, and it's not only the house that is covered (inside and out) but the barns/stable block and the walled garden! Part of the stable block roof is falling down and they have been warned by the conservation officer that they will be liable for prosecution if it does fully fall down!
What is key is the state that the building was in when it was listed.
5MUG said:
I think you are in deep do do.
I want all this sorting before exchange of contracts as one of the current residents says the builders are a nightnmare to get to come back. He has had to call the CEO at 0845 in the morning when he knows he will be in his car on the car phone with little chance to screen the call.I didn't know that the listing extended to the whole building but can understand why. The listed building description only covers the main part and just mentions the rest as 'Victorian farm buildings of no particular interest'.
English Hertiage have aleady made then pull down one new chimney stack and take out a court yard fountain. I thought it intersting that the planning docs said in no uncertain terms: 'don't even think about applying for an extension or conservatory' so I suspected the plastic gutter bracketa wouldn't wash! they ,ade them take them all off and replace them with rafter or rise and fakll cast iron ones. Good news is that the local council objected to speed humps on the approach road as it 'urbanised' the site and detracted from the building. I cannot see anywhere that they have permission to put black aluminium gutters up as the permission says they must be the same colour as the stonework (the early permissions wanted then in wood with lead linings!). They have had historical reports, archeological digs, ecological repoers and a host of other repoerts to get to this stage so God knows how some of this slipped the net.
And don't mention the 4 species of protected bats in the roof, the barn owl boxes and the fact we can't plant anything which grows over 1.8 metres tall. Also no cables, aerials or satellite dishes. I am ordering a milk maids outfit for the wife and I shall dress in riding attire and demand to shag the maid.
This had better be worth the hassle and the living with the outlaws.
Cogcog said:
I didn't know that the listing extended to the whole building but can understand why.
Listings extend to the whole curtilage of the building, never mind the whole building.In fact they can be a problem for planning applications on neighbouring land - it can be prejudical to a neighbouring application is it is seen to have a negative effect on the setting of a listed building.
Please be careful. As far as I know, once you have purchased the property, you are liable if the previous changes are not acceptable to the conservation officer.
You may also want to look into insurance against the unauthorised changes.
Suggest you arrange a meeting with conservation officer before you purchase.
Ben
We are in the process of a major renovation to a grage 2 listed church. If you can get the council on your side, it can be very rewarding to own an historic building.
You may also want to look into insurance against the unauthorised changes.
Suggest you arrange a meeting with conservation officer before you purchase.
Ben
We are in the process of a major renovation to a grage 2 listed church. If you can get the council on your side, it can be very rewarding to own an historic building.
benmc said:
Please be careful. As far as I know, once you have purchased the property, you are liable if the previous changes are not acceptable to the conservation officer.
You may also want to look into insurance against the unauthorised changes.
Suggest you arrange a meeting with conservation officer before you purchase.
Ben
We are in the process of a major renovation to a grage 2 listed church. If you can get the council on your side, it can be very rewarding to own an historic building.
The contract says they will ensure the planning is signed off but to be frank I want to see the listed building consents included. I have suggested to my solicitor that rather then me continue compiling lists she asks the develper to get the listing officer to visit and sign it off. They technical director is back off holiday on Tuesday and I am told he will respojd to the questions I have so far about the mis-matched plans and site as it could be they have the changes authorised. Could be!You may also want to look into insurance against the unauthorised changes.
Suggest you arrange a meeting with conservation officer before you purchase.
Ben
We are in the process of a major renovation to a grage 2 listed church. If you can get the council on your side, it can be very rewarding to own an historic building.
Go very carefully.
You cant list part of a building, it will be the whole property and the 2* requirements are onerous. The added complication is that the decision as to whether something is permissable or not rests with the conservation officer. This is highly subjective & depends on the individual officer's point of view.
If I were you, I'd get yourself a conservation specialist (specialist architect or building surveyor)smartish. PM me with where in the country you are & I'll give you some names.
You cant list part of a building, it will be the whole property and the 2* requirements are onerous. The added complication is that the decision as to whether something is permissable or not rests with the conservation officer. This is highly subjective & depends on the individual officer's point of view.
If I were you, I'd get yourself a conservation specialist (specialist architect or building surveyor)smartish. PM me with where in the country you are & I'll give you some names.
Cogcog said:
The contract says they will ensure the planning is signed off but to be frank I want to see the listed building consents included. I have suggested to my solicitor that rather then me continue compiling lists she asks the develper to get the listing officer to visit and sign it off. They technical director is back off holiday on Tuesday and I am told he will respojd to the questions I have so far about the mis-matched plans and site as it could be they have the changes authorised. Could be!
From what we have seen so far there does appear to be any final sign-off to check that listed building consent has been followed. My guess is that the council will ask you or the developer to put in for retrospective listed building consent for how the building looks now, but this is a guess.Another bit of advice, get anything said verbally in writing from the council. We have not had major issues but things sometimes change when they are finally put in writing.
Good luck, feel this one will not be easy to work through.
Ben
benmc said:
From what we have seen so far there does appear to be any final sign-off to check that listed building consent has been followed. My guess is that the council will ask you or the developer to put in for retrospective listed building consent for how the building looks now, but this is a guess.
Another bit of advice, get anything said verbally in writing from the council. We have not had major issues but things sometimes change when they are finally put in writing.
Good luck, feel this one will not be easy to work through.
Ben
I am sure the conservation officer will be up there like a shot if it is suggested there are non compliant works. I have outlined the ones I have noticed to the developer and told the solicitior that I want council sign off on the listed building aspects before exchange. I am giving the developer a chance to show they have the permissions for the changes or can get them by exchange before I sour the relationshiop further.Another bit of advice, get anything said verbally in writing from the council. We have not had major issues but things sometimes change when they are finally put in writing.
Good luck, feel this one will not be easy to work through.
Ben
The sale contract is quite vague about having sign off and does not mention listed builting consents, only 'planning' and even then they say that some aspect might not be done until the development is complete (e.g. landscaping, access roads, boundary fencing). I cannot leave that to chance given my liability to put things right if they don't do it or go tits up financially.
If the developer refuses to call in the council then I will do that but I want to be sure they are non compliant or have no explanation before I do it. By chance I may have to contact the conservation officer at the council who did the inspections in a week or so on another matter, so if things are not right by then I have the chance to suggest he takes a closer look.
I cut out the middle man and went straight to the conservation officer.
He inspected a month or so ago because of the importance of the building. He was happy with everything, including the paint work changes which he thought were historically better and would have recommended had they not done it. He was the one who suggested limestone chippings over tarmac plannings on the approach roads. He talked me through the internal/external changes and was really only interested in the external appearance as the inside has been 'pretty much wiped clean' during the development due to the state of the place before hand. The internal exposed stonework had been a 'if possible' due to the terrible state of repair prior to the development and they managed it on the gable wall. He said he would go back to look at an exposed IT cable if required but it was 'de minimus' and didn't retract from the character and that given its previous state was small price to pay for, in his words, 'a very good restoration'. Reassuringly he was very keen for the development to be dwellings to sdafeguard the builoding as it had had 250 years of neglect.
He said they didn't 'sign off' as such but that a report of his inspection visit was with the developer.
Should I be reassured or seek something on paper?
He inspected a month or so ago because of the importance of the building. He was happy with everything, including the paint work changes which he thought were historically better and would have recommended had they not done it. He was the one who suggested limestone chippings over tarmac plannings on the approach roads. He talked me through the internal/external changes and was really only interested in the external appearance as the inside has been 'pretty much wiped clean' during the development due to the state of the place before hand. The internal exposed stonework had been a 'if possible' due to the terrible state of repair prior to the development and they managed it on the gable wall. He said he would go back to look at an exposed IT cable if required but it was 'de minimus' and didn't retract from the character and that given its previous state was small price to pay for, in his words, 'a very good restoration'. Reassuringly he was very keen for the development to be dwellings to sdafeguard the builoding as it had had 250 years of neglect.
He said they didn't 'sign off' as such but that a report of his inspection visit was with the developer.
Should I be reassured or seek something on paper?
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