Plumbing advice - complete renovation
Discussion
Hi, I’m after some plumbing advice for our renovation.
We’ve had some recommended plumbers in to do quotes; trouble is they seem to come up with different ways of doing the job!
Bit of background – 3 bedroom house that has been completely gutted – no pipework at all.
Heating will be all UFH; LPG boiler (no mains here).
We have a borehole in the garden, so no mains pressure – just a pump and small pressure vessel – when the pressure drops below a certain level the pump kicks in to “top up”.
We will have one family bathroom with a bath/shower combination, and an en-suite with a large shower. We’d like both showers to be power types – using the Hansgrohe ibox control system and something like a Stuart Turner pump (or pumps?) to feed them.
We’re going to need a fairly big cylinder to hold hot water for that I reckon? Chippy has built a 900 x 900 x 2700 airing cupboard (old Georgian place – high ceilings) to take the cylinder and upstairs UFH manifold. Looks like we can get a decent sized HW cylinder in that space to me!
The bit that the different plumbers seem to disagree on is whether we will need cold water tanks in the loft. One guy has said we should install a closed system so no need for cold water tanks, and all cold water in the house will be at the low pressure put out by the borehole pump.
Another has said we will need cold water tanks since we’ll need a feed for the power showers to blend with the hot and both will be run from the pump to the showers. Also we'll have a reserve of water when the power fails (as it does here now & then).
So, never having done any plumbing, and not wanting to get this wrong, can the PH plumbing gurus offer any advice please?
Thanks,
Steve
We’ve had some recommended plumbers in to do quotes; trouble is they seem to come up with different ways of doing the job!
Bit of background – 3 bedroom house that has been completely gutted – no pipework at all.
Heating will be all UFH; LPG boiler (no mains here).
We have a borehole in the garden, so no mains pressure – just a pump and small pressure vessel – when the pressure drops below a certain level the pump kicks in to “top up”.
We will have one family bathroom with a bath/shower combination, and an en-suite with a large shower. We’d like both showers to be power types – using the Hansgrohe ibox control system and something like a Stuart Turner pump (or pumps?) to feed them.
We’re going to need a fairly big cylinder to hold hot water for that I reckon? Chippy has built a 900 x 900 x 2700 airing cupboard (old Georgian place – high ceilings) to take the cylinder and upstairs UFH manifold. Looks like we can get a decent sized HW cylinder in that space to me!
The bit that the different plumbers seem to disagree on is whether we will need cold water tanks in the loft. One guy has said we should install a closed system so no need for cold water tanks, and all cold water in the house will be at the low pressure put out by the borehole pump.
Another has said we will need cold water tanks since we’ll need a feed for the power showers to blend with the hot and both will be run from the pump to the showers. Also we'll have a reserve of water when the power fails (as it does here now & then).
So, never having done any plumbing, and not wanting to get this wrong, can the PH plumbing gurus offer any advice please?
Thanks,
Steve
Unless you have > 25 litres/min flow then I would avoid unvented hot. Stored is seen as a little 'old-fashioned' these days and DOES require pumps for showers (normally), but it is OFTEN the only way to do the job properly. Depending on the size of the vessel on the pump, you might well be pumping ALL the water for a hot and cold bath tap AND maybe shower at the same time with that borehole pump.
As an aside, check for iron levels...that can be a right b
d.
As an aside, check for iron levels...that can be a right b
d.Thanks Arthur,
From memory we have about 15 litres/min flow from the borehole pump.
We had a problem when we first moved in that anything connected with the existing pipework went orange due to the iron and manganese in the water (turbidity levels were fairly high too!) - ruined a few pale clothes in the wash due to that.
There was only a 10 inch cartridge filter after the pump that had a 20 micron filter in - housing was actually clear plastic but looked black since the old lady hadn't changed it for years!
I've now put in two 10 inch filters (10 & 1 micron), water softener, and a 4 foot tall backwashable processing unit to get rid of the iron & manganese. We can now drink the water and wear light clothes again, much to my OH's delight!
From memory we have about 15 litres/min flow from the borehole pump.
We had a problem when we first moved in that anything connected with the existing pipework went orange due to the iron and manganese in the water (turbidity levels were fairly high too!) - ruined a few pale clothes in the wash due to that.
There was only a 10 inch cartridge filter after the pump that had a 20 micron filter in - housing was actually clear plastic but looked black since the old lady hadn't changed it for years!
I've now put in two 10 inch filters (10 & 1 micron), water softener, and a 4 foot tall backwashable processing unit to get rid of the iron & manganese. We can now drink the water and wear light clothes again, much to my OH's delight!
We've a few customers that take their water from a spring or bore hole much like yourselves.
One setup which worked very well was a mains pressure hot and cold setup.
Spring pump to a Grundfos Home Booster. The spring pump pumped to the home booster reservoir. The spring pump was triggered via a float switch trigger in turn triggered by the water level within the booster reservoir. We tapped a hole into the top of the home boosters reservoir to install this float valve.
The home booster consists of a 200L (180L usable) water reservoir with a high flow, high pressure pump. We then ran an unvented cylinder off this with no issues. You can add a further 180 litres via a slave home booster reservoir if you require.
This ran the whole house (hot and cold) at a very adequate pressure for them.
Prior to this they had a huge Stuart Turner twin impeller pump which came on when ever you opened a tap through out the house due to the dreadful pressure from their cold water storage tanks. The sound of the pump drove the owners batty, so we installed the new setup.
Due to the water coming from a spring and also with another customer who pumps water into her house from a well, the water goes via a limestone neutralising cylinder, a particle filter and a UV light. I think a water treatment setup is very important if your water is non mains. We had a company come in and test the water to decide what water filtering setup we needed.
We had a build a small shed type building as a water treatment room, but worth thinking about.
One setup which worked very well was a mains pressure hot and cold setup.
Spring pump to a Grundfos Home Booster. The spring pump pumped to the home booster reservoir. The spring pump was triggered via a float switch trigger in turn triggered by the water level within the booster reservoir. We tapped a hole into the top of the home boosters reservoir to install this float valve.
The home booster consists of a 200L (180L usable) water reservoir with a high flow, high pressure pump. We then ran an unvented cylinder off this with no issues. You can add a further 180 litres via a slave home booster reservoir if you require.
This ran the whole house (hot and cold) at a very adequate pressure for them.
Prior to this they had a huge Stuart Turner twin impeller pump which came on when ever you opened a tap through out the house due to the dreadful pressure from their cold water storage tanks. The sound of the pump drove the owners batty, so we installed the new setup.
Due to the water coming from a spring and also with another customer who pumps water into her house from a well, the water goes via a limestone neutralising cylinder, a particle filter and a UV light. I think a water treatment setup is very important if your water is non mains. We had a company come in and test the water to decide what water filtering setup we needed.
We had a build a small shed type building as a water treatment room, but worth thinking about.
Edited by Gingerbread Man on Tuesday 18th October 19:03
Here is my setup:
Big pump in borehole that fills a 25,000 litre holding tank in 20 minutes. (this pump is also used for irrigating hence the size).
Something like a 1hp pump provides the pressure to the house, high/low pressure switch fitted.
Everything in the house is then high pressure, and you must use either a stainless steel cylinder or ceramic lined steel one to handle it.
Something like a 300 litre cylinder would be a decent size, we can have as many taps on at the same time and there is no problem. No cold tanks in the roof.
I would seriously suggest you consider something else apart from lpg. If you are going underfloor heating a heat pump would probably have lower running costs.
Another thought - I import into NZ a 300 litre stainless steel cylinder with a small heat pump on top - we charge 2000 pounds for them. 680mm in diameter - under 2m tall. Two ducts required to outside or into roof space (heat pump works by extracting heat from the air). Only uses a third of the usual amount of power.
Gingerbread Man said:
We've a few customers that take their water from a spring or bore hole much like yourselves.
One setup which worked very well was a mains pressure hot and cold setup.
Spring pump to a Grundfos Home Booster. The spring pump pumped to the home booster reservoir. The spring pump was triggered via a float switch trigger in turn triggered by the water level within the booster reservoir. We tapped a hole into the top of the home boosters reservoir to install this float valve.
The home booster consists of a 200L (180L usable) water reservoir with a high flow, high pressure pump. We then ran an unvented cylinder off this with no issues. You can add a further 180 litres via a slave home booster reservoir if you require.
This ran the whole house (hot and cold) at a very adequate pressure for them.
Prior to this they had a huge Stuart Turner twin impeller pump which came on when ever you opened a tap through out the house due to the dreadful pressure from their cold water storage tanks. The sound of the pump drove the owners batty, so we installed the new setup.
Due to the water coming from a spring and also with another customer who pumps water into her house from a well, the water goes via a limestone neutralising cylinder, a particle filter and a UV light. I think a water treatment setup is very important if your water is non mains. We had a company come in and test the water to decide what water filtering setup we needed.
We had a build a small shed type building as a water treatment room, but worth thinking about.
This.One setup which worked very well was a mains pressure hot and cold setup.
Spring pump to a Grundfos Home Booster. The spring pump pumped to the home booster reservoir. The spring pump was triggered via a float switch trigger in turn triggered by the water level within the booster reservoir. We tapped a hole into the top of the home boosters reservoir to install this float valve.
The home booster consists of a 200L (180L usable) water reservoir with a high flow, high pressure pump. We then ran an unvented cylinder off this with no issues. You can add a further 180 litres via a slave home booster reservoir if you require.
This ran the whole house (hot and cold) at a very adequate pressure for them.
Prior to this they had a huge Stuart Turner twin impeller pump which came on when ever you opened a tap through out the house due to the dreadful pressure from their cold water storage tanks. The sound of the pump drove the owners batty, so we installed the new setup.
Due to the water coming from a spring and also with another customer who pumps water into her house from a well, the water goes via a limestone neutralising cylinder, a particle filter and a UV light. I think a water treatment setup is very important if your water is non mains. We had a company come in and test the water to decide what water filtering setup we needed.
We had a build a small shed type building as a water treatment room, but worth thinking about.
Edited by Gingerbread Man on Tuesday 18th October 19:03
How much are they GBMan?
Thanks gents, some interesting info there to take in.
We did think about a ground source heat pump, but the couple of companies we spoke to said our garden wasn't really suitable - the water table isn't very far below the surface in the only area we could use and I balked at the cost of drilling a borehole!
We did think about a ground source heat pump, but the couple of companies we spoke to said our garden wasn't really suitable - the water table isn't very far below the surface in the only area we could use and I balked at the cost of drilling a borehole!
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