Quick question for an electrician
Discussion
Hi all,
Quick question for any sparkies.
My dilemma, had a new electrician in to run a new install into a property of mine, completed about 90% and buggered off which rang alarm bells to whether or not the install had been done correctly and safely.
Got a guy I've used before in to tidy the remaining items. Now basically the original guys come back and said that he is the only person to sign off the install element of the certificate and has demanded a huge sum of money.
My electrician has offered to complete a periodic certificate.
I'm so confused, just need someone to shed some light on the legislation's etc.
Many thanks,
BOB
Quick question for any sparkies.
My dilemma, had a new electrician in to run a new install into a property of mine, completed about 90% and buggered off which rang alarm bells to whether or not the install had been done correctly and safely.
Got a guy I've used before in to tidy the remaining items. Now basically the original guys come back and said that he is the only person to sign off the install element of the certificate and has demanded a huge sum of money.
My electrician has offered to complete a periodic certificate.
I'm so confused, just need someone to shed some light on the legislation's etc.
Many thanks,
BOB
I'm not really familiar with the legislations in England, part P etc (I presume thats where you are).
A Periodic Inspection Report should be fine, this will determine that the installation is safe and fit for use.
Is it just for your records or is building control needing it?
It sounds like the first bloke is trying to pull a fast one.
If he disappears its not your fault, the only sensible thing you can be expected to do is get a Periodic Inspection done.
I suppose you could argue that your first sparky didn't fully complete the installation so isn't in a position to complete an Installation Certificate (EIC).
Hopefully someone will be along with a more definitive answer soon.
A Periodic Inspection Report should be fine, this will determine that the installation is safe and fit for use.
Is it just for your records or is building control needing it?
It sounds like the first bloke is trying to pull a fast one.
If he disappears its not your fault, the only sensible thing you can be expected to do is get a Periodic Inspection done.
I suppose you could argue that your first sparky didn't fully complete the installation so isn't in a position to complete an Installation Certificate (EIC).
Hopefully someone will be along with a more definitive answer soon.
The problem is that an electrical firm can only sign a eic for work that they have carried out, they can not sign off another firms work as if they had carried out the work (and would be foolish to do so)
How was the first spark to be paid, what contract was in place?
Which scheme is he registered with for his electrical testing.
If he had energised any circuits then testing has to of been carried out prior to power up, he should issue a certificate regardless of payment (although reality may differ, Especially as you have used another elec- although he should of completed work within agreed timescale)
How much work did the 2nd spark complete(should be certs for his work- but reality prob not?)
Periodic can be done by 2nd spark, but is not quite the same as eic due to limitations because the work has been completed
How was the first spark to be paid, what contract was in place?
Which scheme is he registered with for his electrical testing.
If he had energised any circuits then testing has to of been carried out prior to power up, he should issue a certificate regardless of payment (although reality may differ, Especially as you have used another elec- although he should of completed work within agreed timescale)
How much work did the 2nd spark complete(should be certs for his work- but reality prob not?)
Periodic can be done by 2nd spark, but is not quite the same as eic due to limitations because the work has been completed
So in a nutshell a Periodic certificate is fine with the council and everyone however may pose an issue when the property is sold?
1st electrician is saying it's illegal, need to have an installation certificate otherwise it's against the law and you'll be fined etc...basically implying I'm breaking the law if I don't use him.
2nd electrician is a tester and inspector and says he can issue either a periodic inspection report or an installation certificate.
Confusing!!
I do not want to get shafted my 1st electrician however he is constantly reminding me how illegal it is and that I have no option other than to use him and pay the hefty sum.
I am being blackmailed.
1st electrician is saying it's illegal, need to have an installation certificate otherwise it's against the law and you'll be fined etc...basically implying I'm breaking the law if I don't use him.
2nd electrician is a tester and inspector and says he can issue either a periodic inspection report or an installation certificate.
Confusing!!
I do not want to get shafted my 1st electrician however he is constantly reminding me how illegal it is and that I have no option other than to use him and pay the hefty sum.
I am being blackmailed.
HandsomeBob said:
So in a nutshell a Periodic certificate is fine with the council and everyone however may pose an issue when the property is sold?
Periodic means no part p in reality, it's a compromise.HandsomeBob said:
1st electrician is saying it's illegal, need to have an installation certificate otherwise it's against the law and you'll be fined etc...basically implying I'm breaking the law if I don't use him.
All work of this extent should be tested, inspected and certified.Did the 1st spark power circuits up? Has he completed any testing?
HandsomeBob said:
2nd electrician is a tester and inspector and says he can issue either a periodic inspection report or an installation certificate.
.
Periodic-yes, install-no, he may issue you one but shouldn't as he did not do the install.
HandsomeBob said:
I do not want to get shafted my 1st electrician however he is constantly reminding me how illegal it is and that I have no option other than to use him and pay the hefty sum.
I am being blackmailed.
It may be the 1st electrician having problems if you get building control and trading standards involved if your version of events are deemed accurate over his. Make sure you get certs off your 2nd electrician for the work that he has done before going down this route if you choose to.I am being blackmailed.
speedyman said:
So what happens if 1st electrician drops dead somewhere before completion, he's suggestion you would be breaking the law if that happened, how would you obtain a legal certificate ?
Tell 1st guy to do one, he's trying it on.
Speedyman
Exactly - there are always inspectors who will be higher up than an electrician.Tell 1st guy to do one, he's trying it on.
Speedyman
Depends on the circumstances, probably best to offer what you think is a reasonable amount for the work actually done (in writing). If you've already paid write and tell him you aren't paying any more - and wait for legal action. At that point counterclaim.
The reason your 1st electrician says its illegal is because in theory only the installer can complete an initial inspection because only he will know how imbedded cables are installed. For example, CDM 2007 part P regs state that in domestic installations all cable drops embedded in walls to sockects or switches must drop vertically, so that Liberal Democrat Minister's wives dont electrocute themselves hanging pictures beside them (this is how part P came about).
However, the periodic inspection will make sure that the system is electrically sound (insulation resistance, continuity, polarity etc). So the only problem should be how did he run his embedded cables. In a domestic installation, it should not be that difficult to find out (cable finders etc.)
There is wiggle room and no-one is going to send you to jail, afterall in the commercial world we also have to perform initial inspections and we could have had 20 different sparks working on a site, that doesnt mean we have to do 20 initial inspections.
As someone above said, find out who he is affiliated to ELECSA, NICEIC (niceic.com) etc. and give them a ring, you will find them helpful and on your side if one of their members is not playing fair.
Part P is abused constantly and the NICEIC take it very seriously. We recently had a property periodically inspected by a part P company only to receive a quotation for a huge amount of work "to bring our house up to code". We reported them to NICEIC because (as they confirmed) a twenty year old house does not have to comply with this years code.
However, the periodic inspection will make sure that the system is electrically sound (insulation resistance, continuity, polarity etc). So the only problem should be how did he run his embedded cables. In a domestic installation, it should not be that difficult to find out (cable finders etc.)
There is wiggle room and no-one is going to send you to jail, afterall in the commercial world we also have to perform initial inspections and we could have had 20 different sparks working on a site, that doesnt mean we have to do 20 initial inspections.
As someone above said, find out who he is affiliated to ELECSA, NICEIC (niceic.com) etc. and give them a ring, you will find them helpful and on your side if one of their members is not playing fair.
Part P is abused constantly and the NICEIC take it very seriously. We recently had a property periodically inspected by a part P company only to receive a quotation for a huge amount of work "to bring our house up to code". We reported them to NICEIC because (as they confirmed) a twenty year old house does not have to comply with this years code.
HandsomeBob said:
So in a nutshell I can have a periodic certificate and tell the 1st electrician to go do one and not have an installation certificate?
Can he then do anything legally?
What he can do legally will be affected if you still owe him money, or he rang building control and informed them he had started a job, not been allowed to complete it due to unreasonable timescales between 1st and 2nd fix, etc (for example)Can he then do anything legally?
This is what part p says, ( go to p12- 1.28/1.29)
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF...
You are probably going to need building control due to the notifiable work being carried out, if you answer the questions I asked you in my previous posts I will try to guide you on your next step, I also suggest you make a phone call/ book a meeting with building control to discuss your situation with them
Thanks Britespark,
I offered for him to return and complete the works but he said he'd only be available in 5 weeks time, if I need to get the property on the market it just didn't work with my timings.
Apparently aslong as building control in that area are happy to accept only a periodic certificate then this is fine? I've got a member of building control returning my call this afternoon
Thanks for all your help
I offered for him to return and complete the works but he said he'd only be available in 5 weeks time, if I need to get the property on the market it just didn't work with my timings.
Apparently aslong as building control in that area are happy to accept only a periodic certificate then this is fine? I've got a member of building control returning my call this afternoon
Thanks for all your help
Is spark 1 demanding money over and above either what he's done or what was agreed, or money that he may be due, eg he's completed 90% of the installation but only charged you an instalment of say 50% of the contracted price, with the balance due on completion? Also, how was he notified his presence was required to complete, prior discussion or a phonecall of "we need you today or else" out the blue?
Don't take offence if they don't apply, just observations of my time in the trade...
as for part P and all that the periodic will probably suffice, the whole things a joke anyway, most councils seem happy with a "cert" regardless of what it should or shouldn't be and whether the installers reg'd or not.
Don't take offence if they don't apply, just observations of my time in the trade...
as for part P and all that the periodic will probably suffice, the whole things a joke anyway, most councils seem happy with a "cert" regardless of what it should or shouldn't be and whether the installers reg'd or not.
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