No earth wire in socket
Discussion
Hi
I'm doing some renovations on my late father's house and have been changing all the yellowed plug and light sockets for brushed chrome equivalents.
I'm not a sparky and this is the first time I've actually tackled anything like this.
I've come across a 3 pin socket that has no switch on it (don't know if that's significant), when I took it off I noticed there was a black wire inserted into the earth terminal, and another black wire in neutral and red in live.
Thinking maybe whoever installed it had been naughty and not used green/yellow sheathing I just connected up the new socket the same way.
When I switched the CU back on the socket tester I had plugged in was completely silent as if the socket was getting no power at all. However when I touched my voltage tester screwdriver on the metal socket casing it read 220v (I assume that's live?)
I took the socket off again and touched each of the wires and it appears both black wires are neutral (reading 110v on tester).
I ended up putting the original plastic socket back on, wired up the way it was originally, and it still doesn't work - although at least being plastic the socket itself isn't energised! (the screwholes are though).
Would I be right in assuming that this socket would never have worked? I tried earthing the faceplate on the backbox instead but this made no difference.
Would a socket with no earth at all have no power at all to anything you plug into it?
I'm doing some renovations on my late father's house and have been changing all the yellowed plug and light sockets for brushed chrome equivalents.
I'm not a sparky and this is the first time I've actually tackled anything like this.
I've come across a 3 pin socket that has no switch on it (don't know if that's significant), when I took it off I noticed there was a black wire inserted into the earth terminal, and another black wire in neutral and red in live.
Thinking maybe whoever installed it had been naughty and not used green/yellow sheathing I just connected up the new socket the same way.
When I switched the CU back on the socket tester I had plugged in was completely silent as if the socket was getting no power at all. However when I touched my voltage tester screwdriver on the metal socket casing it read 220v (I assume that's live?)
I took the socket off again and touched each of the wires and it appears both black wires are neutral (reading 110v on tester).
I ended up putting the original plastic socket back on, wired up the way it was originally, and it still doesn't work - although at least being plastic the socket itself isn't energised! (the screwholes are though).
Would I be right in assuming that this socket would never have worked? I tried earthing the faceplate on the backbox instead but this made no difference.
Would a socket with no earth at all have no power at all to anything you plug into it?
Durzel said:
I've come across a 3 pin socket that has no switch on it (don't know if that's significant), when I took it off I noticed there was a black wire inserted into the earth terminal, and another black wire in neutral and red in live.
Sounds like it has the old colour wiring:Live: Red
Neutal: Black
Earth: Brown
Infinitely more logical than the modern version I think you will agree!
Durzel said:
Would a socket with no earth at all have no power at all to anything you plug into it?
No, you do not need earth to transmit electricity. As others have said, put it all away carefully and get a man in.NB I am not one to quote that automatically but I say it now because you have no idea, you also have no idea of what bodges have been done, and all you need to do is touch one wrong bit to kill yourself.
Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 4th April 15:55
Durzel said:
I took the socket off again and touched each of the wires and it appears both black wires are neutral (reading 110v on tester).
Should read zero (or very close). The house has an earth fault, or possible no proper earth at all. Get someone in.Simpo Two said:
Sounds like it has the old colour wiring:
Live: Red
Neutal: Black
Earth: Brown
Brown didn't exist in the old colour scheme. Earth was green.Live: Red
Neutal: Black
Earth: Brown
Thanks for the comments.
As a layman I've had no real problems replacing everything else so far, including triple light switches etc
I've taken precautions, taken notes of which wire goes where when necessary, and switching the whole CU off every time I've started using the screwdriver, as well as buying voltage testers etc. I haven't managed to kill myself yet and I've done almost the entire house.
As regards this strange socket - I'm not convinced it has ever worked, but I can't be sure. With the original plastic socket on with the wires in their original places it still doesn't work, but the screw holes are live (at least as far as my voltage tester says).
Here's a pic:
.. Definitely two black wires and 1 red wire.
edit: Forgot to add that all the other sockets in the house appear to be work correctly, and have green/yellow earth wires (connected to the backbox in the case of the light switches, so I've attached flying earth leads to faceplates where necessary)
As a layman I've had no real problems replacing everything else so far, including triple light switches etc
I've taken precautions, taken notes of which wire goes where when necessary, and switching the whole CU off every time I've started using the screwdriver, as well as buying voltage testers etc. I haven't managed to kill myself yet and I've done almost the entire house.
As regards this strange socket - I'm not convinced it has ever worked, but I can't be sure. With the original plastic socket on with the wires in their original places it still doesn't work, but the screw holes are live (at least as far as my voltage tester says).
Here's a pic:
.. Definitely two black wires and 1 red wire.
edit: Forgot to add that all the other sockets in the house appear to be work correctly, and have green/yellow earth wires (connected to the backbox in the case of the light switches, so I've attached flying earth leads to faceplates where necessary)
Edited by Durzel on Friday 4th April 17:01
Edited by Durzel on Friday 4th April 17:03
NPI said:
Brown didn't exist in the old colour scheme. Earth was green.
Rats, 67% 
Durzel said:
.. Definitely two black wires and 1 red wire.
God knows how the screw holes are live!
Simpo Two said:
I see 1x black, 1x red and 1x bare copper with a black bit stuck on it. That's probably the earth but don't take my word for it.
See, earth is copper-colour
Now I think you're trying to kill me See, earth is copper-colour
Both those wires with black insulation read 110v on my £4 B&Q voltage tester (detector?), with the live reading 220v. Surely an earth lead would have zero voltage?
Anyway, I'll be getting a sparky in anyway because I've reached the limit of my ability with it, but was just curious as to why it might have been wired this way to begin with.
i got given one of these socket testers http://www.screwfix.com/search.do?fh_search=socket...
not the be all and end all by any means, but is a good starting point
not the be all and end all by any means, but is a good starting point
Durzel said:
Simpo Two said:
I see 1x black, 1x red and 1x bare copper with a black bit stuck on it. That's probably the earth but don't take my word for it.
See, earth is copper-colour
Now I think you're trying to kill me See, earth is copper-colour
Both those wires with black insulation read 110v on my £4 B&Q voltage tester (detector?), with the live reading 220v. Surely an earth lead would have zero voltage?
Anyway, I'll be getting a sparky in anyway because I've reached the limit of my ability with it, but was just curious as to why it might have been wired this way to begin with.
Have you made sure all the other switches/sockets you have changed are correctly earthed? have you earthed the metal switch plate as well as the back box. I would get a loop test done on them as well if they are now all chrome. Any RCDs on the circuits?
Alucidnation said:
Key a sparky in OP FFS.
An internet forum is not a place for electrical advice.
+1An internet forum is not a place for electrical advice.
It is dangerous enough to give advice when you can see the whole system and can follow the cables through. It could be lethal to give advice on the basis of one socket that looks as if it's a spur from a ring main (there's only one cable going to it).
Remember one thing - any mistakes might kill someone else, not just "tickle" you (ie give you a shock). Having worked on may farms (and in the chemical industry), I have seen some "interesting" wiring schemes - and refuse to touch them nowadays.
On a single phase domestic supply, earth and neutral return to the same point so between the phase (live) and neutral or phase to earth you will have a very similar potential - 230v AC.
Across neutral and earth you should have 0v unless you have a fault.
You do not need an earth for the circuit to work, however you can then become exposed to electric faults / shocks etc, that's why everything metal should be bonded at the same potential such as copper water pipes, steel sinks etc.
If you are testing across an earth and neutral and seeing a potential of 110v then you have serious issue.
To prove the potential make a flying lead up from the consumer unit so you have a definite earth reference and are not guessing at what is what.
Across neutral and earth you should have 0v unless you have a fault.
You do not need an earth for the circuit to work, however you can then become exposed to electric faults / shocks etc, that's why everything metal should be bonded at the same potential such as copper water pipes, steel sinks etc.
If you are testing across an earth and neutral and seeing a potential of 110v then you have serious issue.
To prove the potential make a flying lead up from the consumer unit so you have a definite earth reference and are not guessing at what is what.
NH1 said:
I think he is using something like this to test with.
Yeah that's the sort of thing. Specifically, this is what I'm using. I don't know how accurate it is but I can tell from having tested it a few times than when it shows 220v I probably shouldn't touch the faceplate with my finger 
Clearly I guess I need to get a sparky in, as I can't progress it any further.
Appreciate the comments about safety but I've been very cautious doing this stuff, I've been checking everything I'm touching even with the CU off.
Spare tyre said:
i got given one of these socket testers http://www.screwfix.com/search.do?fh_search=socket...
not the be all and end all by any means, but is a good starting point
I'm using one of these as well, this one exactly, albeit B&Q branded, this is what alerted me to the fact that all was not well with the socket, as all the other ones I've done have lit the correct LEDs/made a continuous buzzing noise.not the be all and end all by any means, but is a good starting point
Edited by Durzel on Friday 4th April 19:48
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