Garden room planning permission
Discussion
Hi all, we're planning to build a garden room in the bottom of our garden next year. The plan is to have a bathroom with a shower, toilet and sink. That's because we're going to have an exercise bike in the room and also the room will be used as an office so having a shower, toilet and sink will be quite handy.
The thing I'm really struggling to figure out is whether we need planning permission for this room due to the bathroom. I've spoken to my local council about planning and they've just simply sent me to the government planning portal site which has very vague advice on outbuildings. I know that I will most likely have to get building regulation approval which is fine but it's the planning part I'm really confused about.
Has anyone built a garden room like this before with a toilet and shower and if so what permissions did you seek?
The thing I'm really struggling to figure out is whether we need planning permission for this room due to the bathroom. I've spoken to my local council about planning and they've just simply sent me to the government planning portal site which has very vague advice on outbuildings. I know that I will most likely have to get building regulation approval which is fine but it's the planning part I'm really confused about.
Has anyone built a garden room like this before with a toilet and shower and if so what permissions did you seek?
I've just done pre planning for a 30sqm room in my London suburbia house. Awaiting the report. But to the surprise of my architect, the planners were fine with my room that showed a toilet and kitchenette.
It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
rajan2004 said:
You can't just leave it there. Where's the thread? I'm intrigued!
I think it’s this one. Looks like the OP there was beaten back after only 40 pages! https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
MrJuice said:
I've just done pre planning for a 30sqm room in my London suburbia house. Awaiting the report. But to the surprise of my architect, the planners were fine with my room that showed a toilet and kitchenette.
It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
My garden office has water supplied by a ariston under sink water heater.It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
It's brilliant. Always has just the right amount of hot water to wash hands, after using the loo.
Would highly recommend.
Rest of office has electric heating such that I avoid needing a gas supply.
MrJuice said:
I've just done pre planning for a 30sqm room in my London suburbia house. Awaiting the report. But to the surprise of my architect, the planners were fine with my room that showed a toilet and kitchenette.
It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
You could have an electric shower and a small water heater under the kitchenette sink, or a megaflow would also work, but takes up some space. It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
mikebradford said:
My garden office has water supplied by a ariston under sink water heater.
It's brilliant. Always has just the right amount of hot water to wash hands, after using the loo.
Would highly recommend.
Rest of office has electric heating such that I avoid needing a gas supply.
Is the loo part of the garden room too? Did you get planning permission or was building regs enough?It's brilliant. Always has just the right amount of hot water to wash hands, after using the loo.
Would highly recommend.
Rest of office has electric heating such that I avoid needing a gas supply.
MrJuice said:
I've just done pre planning for a 30sqm room in my London suburbia house. Awaiting the report. But to the surprise of my architect, the planners were fine with my room that showed a toilet and kitchenette.
It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
I was thinking of applying for lawful development rights. Is that what you mean by pre planning?It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
MrJuice said:
I've just done pre planning for a 30sqm room in my London suburbia house. Awaiting the report. But to the surprise of my architect, the planners were fine with my room that showed a toilet and kitchenette.
It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
I was thinking of applying for lawful development rights. Is that what you mean by pre planning?It'll be used mostly as an office and then an additional space when entertaining.
I'm slightly concerned about getting hot water to the room because it's approx 30m from the house.
There is no issue at all with Wc , shower , kitchenette etc. I have built 3 of them.
They must be for use incidental to the property.
If for example you have a 2 up two down and want to build a 50 sqm room with facilities ( assuming garden big enough for 50% rule) you may get a challenge that give it is as big as the house the use is likely not incidental.
I have also seen one declined and lost at appeal where it had 2 bedrooms and a gym with parking outside. They were clear that this was not incidental.
As long as it is incidental and the size of it vaguely suits the property your chance of a challenge is nil
They must be for use incidental to the property.
If for example you have a 2 up two down and want to build a 50 sqm room with facilities ( assuming garden big enough for 50% rule) you may get a challenge that give it is as big as the house the use is likely not incidental.
I have also seen one declined and lost at appeal where it had 2 bedrooms and a gym with parking outside. They were clear that this was not incidental.
As long as it is incidental and the size of it vaguely suits the property your chance of a challenge is nil
To answer your specific question: to be Permitted Development, any outbuilding must be for a use incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse.
You are allowed 'ancillary' facilities, however, provided they are demonstrably subordinate to an incidental use, so a shower room that is specifically there to support a gym (which is itself 'incidental use') is fine, but a shower room that is there to support primary or ancillary living accommodation most certainly is not.
Planning Authorities take a very dim view of anyone who they think is trying to create independent or ancillary accommodation without permission, however, so it is certainly a very good idea to seek a Certificate of Lawfulness (which is different from seeking pre-application advice) before constructing the building, and the rules, meanings and terminology are subtle and complex to the degree that it would be wise to use a Chartered Planning Consultant to prepare the Certificate of Lawfulness for you unless you are very sure you understand the rules.
Note that I use the phrase Chartered Planning Consultant, too: unlike 'Architect', 'Planning Consultant' is not a title protected by law, so you get a lot of unqualified (and frankly pretty clueless) plans-drawers calling themselves Planning Consultants, and you need to avoid them: you'd be looking for someone who is Chartered MRTPI (Member of the Royal Town Planning Institute).
There are further complications due to the fact that you can build an outbuilding as 'incidental' use under PD, but then convert it to 'ancillary' use, without needing Planning Permission (but you're not allowed to build it as ancillary from the outset... confused yet?!), provided that the nature of the 'ancillary' use does not create something that can be perceived as a separate Planning Unit (ie. a separate dwelling in its own right), but that is skating on VERY thin ice, so definitely take professional advice if you're thinking of going in that direction.
You are allowed 'ancillary' facilities, however, provided they are demonstrably subordinate to an incidental use, so a shower room that is specifically there to support a gym (which is itself 'incidental use') is fine, but a shower room that is there to support primary or ancillary living accommodation most certainly is not.
Planning Authorities take a very dim view of anyone who they think is trying to create independent or ancillary accommodation without permission, however, so it is certainly a very good idea to seek a Certificate of Lawfulness (which is different from seeking pre-application advice) before constructing the building, and the rules, meanings and terminology are subtle and complex to the degree that it would be wise to use a Chartered Planning Consultant to prepare the Certificate of Lawfulness for you unless you are very sure you understand the rules.
Note that I use the phrase Chartered Planning Consultant, too: unlike 'Architect', 'Planning Consultant' is not a title protected by law, so you get a lot of unqualified (and frankly pretty clueless) plans-drawers calling themselves Planning Consultants, and you need to avoid them: you'd be looking for someone who is Chartered MRTPI (Member of the Royal Town Planning Institute).
There are further complications due to the fact that you can build an outbuilding as 'incidental' use under PD, but then convert it to 'ancillary' use, without needing Planning Permission (but you're not allowed to build it as ancillary from the outset... confused yet?!), provided that the nature of the 'ancillary' use does not create something that can be perceived as a separate Planning Unit (ie. a separate dwelling in its own right), but that is skating on VERY thin ice, so definitely take professional advice if you're thinking of going in that direction.
Jeremy-75qq8 said:
There is no issue at all with Wc , shower , kitchenette etc. I have built 3 of them.
They must be for use incidental to the property.
...
They must be for use incidental to the property.
...
They must be for a use ancillary and subordinate to an incidental use. Sanitary or kitchen facilities are never 'incidental' in their own right. Refer to the link in my post, above.
And expect serious resistance if you incorporate both kitchen and sanitary facilities: you're into 'granny annex' territory, in that case, which definitely needs Planning Permission.
Equus said:
To answer your specific question: to be Permitted Development, any outbuilding must be for a use incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse.
You are allowed 'ancillary' facilities, however, provided they are demonstrably subordinate to an incidental use, so a shower room that is specifically there to support a gym (which is itself 'incidental use') is fine, but a shower room that is there to support primary or ancillary living accommodation most certainly is not.
Planning Authorities take a very dim view of anyone who they think is trying to create independent or ancillary accommodation without permission, however, so it is certainly a very good idea to seek a Certificate of Lawfulness (which is different from seeking pre-application advice) before constructing the building, and the rules, meanings and terminology are subtle and complex to the degree that it would be wise to use a Chartered Planning Consultant to prepare the Certificate of Lawfulness for you unless you are very sure you understand the rules.
Note that I use the phrase Chartered Planning Consultant, too: unlike 'Architect', 'Planning Consultant' is not a title protected by law, so you get a lot of unqualified (and frankly pretty clueless) plans-drawers calling themselves Planning Consultants, and you need to avoid them: you'd be looking for someone who is Chartered MRTPI (Member of the Royal Town Planning Institute).
There are further complications due to the fact that you can build an outbuilding as 'incidental' use under PD, but then convert it to 'ancillary' use, without needing Planning Permission (but you're not allowed to build it as ancillary from the outset... confused yet?!), provided that the nature of the 'ancillary' use does not create something that can be perceived as a separate Planning Unit (ie. a separate dwelling in its own right), but that is skating on VERY thin ice, so definitely take professional advice if you're thinking of going in that direction.
It looks like a certificate of lawfulness is what I should get then to be absolutely sure. I'd like to book the garden room company in as I know material prices are rising. I'd have to pay them a 40% deposit. I think it takes 8 weeks to get the certificate and I'd want the company to start in around 3-4 months.You are allowed 'ancillary' facilities, however, provided they are demonstrably subordinate to an incidental use, so a shower room that is specifically there to support a gym (which is itself 'incidental use') is fine, but a shower room that is there to support primary or ancillary living accommodation most certainly is not.
Planning Authorities take a very dim view of anyone who they think is trying to create independent or ancillary accommodation without permission, however, so it is certainly a very good idea to seek a Certificate of Lawfulness (which is different from seeking pre-application advice) before constructing the building, and the rules, meanings and terminology are subtle and complex to the degree that it would be wise to use a Chartered Planning Consultant to prepare the Certificate of Lawfulness for you unless you are very sure you understand the rules.
Note that I use the phrase Chartered Planning Consultant, too: unlike 'Architect', 'Planning Consultant' is not a title protected by law, so you get a lot of unqualified (and frankly pretty clueless) plans-drawers calling themselves Planning Consultants, and you need to avoid them: you'd be looking for someone who is Chartered MRTPI (Member of the Royal Town Planning Institute).
There are further complications due to the fact that you can build an outbuilding as 'incidental' use under PD, but then convert it to 'ancillary' use, without needing Planning Permission (but you're not allowed to build it as ancillary from the outset... confused yet?!), provided that the nature of the 'ancillary' use does not create something that can be perceived as a separate Planning Unit (ie. a separate dwelling in its own right), but that is skating on VERY thin ice, so definitely take professional advice if you're thinking of going in that direction.
If the certificate application is rejected for some reason, where do I stand? Or do you think rejection is unlikely? Do I need full architectural drawings for the certificate of lawfulness?
rajan2004 said:
If the certificate application is rejected for some reason, where do I stand? Or do you think rejection is unlikely? Do I need full architectural drawings for the certificate of lawfulness?
There is an appeal process, but your best bet is to get it right in the first place and if it's presented correctly rejection is unlikely (but as above and as demonstrated by Jeremy's post, it's very easy to present it incorrectly, by using the wrong word in the wrong place, and dig a hole for yourself that you will then never climb out of).Yes, you will need architectural drawings, and you will also need a 'Planning Statement' (a written justification of your case, basically, making it clear to them that you understand the rules).
ETA: and theoretically it takes 8 weeks to get a Certificate of Lawfulness, but be aware that many Local Authorities are in meltdown and are taking a lot longer - close to a year is not unheard of.
The Appeals Inspectorate isn't doing much better at the moment, either: the case in the thread linked by OMITN above, has only just had its 'start' letter issued earlier this week (to say that it has been found valid and allocated to an Appeals Inspector) and the appeal (which we're handling) was submitted back in May!
Edited by Equus on Friday 19th November 23:52
Equus said:
They must be for a use ancillary and subordinate to an incidental use. Sanitary or kitchen facilities are never 'incidental' in their own right. Refer to the link in my post, above.
And expect serious resistance if you incorporate both kitchen and sanitary facilities: you're into 'granny annex' territory, in that case, which definitely needs Planning Permission.
This had shower room and kitchen facilities sufficient to allow preparation of food to eat next to the pool. There is nil chance of someone living in it, in particular that the house had multiple large bedrooms and no independent access.
As I said ask for the same at the back of a small 2 up 2 down and a plausible conclusion is that is living space. Kitchens and bathrooms do not rule it out but it needs to be in context of what else is there.
Equus said:
No it doesn't.
In all cases, as I have said, any 'primary' accommodation (kitchens, sanitary facilities) must be ancillary and subordinate to an incidental use, for it to be classed as Permitted Development. That's all there is to it.
But how do you define ancillary? Would a shower and toilet in a room that has a sofa, desk and exercise bike be considered ancillary?In all cases, as I have said, any 'primary' accommodation (kitchens, sanitary facilities) must be ancillary and subordinate to an incidental use, for it to be classed as Permitted Development. That's all there is to it.
rajan2004 said:
But how do you define ancillary? Would a shower and toilet in a room that has a sofa, desk and exercise bike be considered ancillary?
See the link on my first post: they've done a pretty good job of explaining it.But yes, in the situation you've described, the 'home office' and 'gym' uses are incidental; as is a 'garden room', provided there is a lounge in the main house, so the shower and toilet (again, provided there are other sanitary facilities in the main house) would be ancillary and subordinate to the incidental use, so all good.
In the last example Jeremy gave, the garden kitchen and shower are both ancillary to the pool use, and the pool use is incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse, so again all good.
It's the Planning meanings of 'incidental' and 'ancillary' that you need to get your head around - and the fact (as I have already said) that a kitchen or sanitary accommodation are always either primary or ancillary, so they are only Permitted Development if they are ancillary to something else that is itself 'incidental' (ie. one step removed from being part of the use of the main house). It's kind of logical once you've got your head around it, but you'd be surprised the number of people who f
k things up by using the wrong term, in the wrong context, when presenting development to the Planners (or else just present ambiguous drawings that leave it up to the Planner to decide... we always use a written Planning Statement to force them to assess the proposal in the way we want them to).Edited by Equus on Saturday 20th November 13:20
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