Barn conversion with Listed Curtilage
Discussion
Hi all and Happy New Year!
We're in the process of buying a new house; a barn conversion converted in 2019 from an old farm barn. We've just had the Property Information Form though and it notes the barn as listed. Whilst it turns out the barn itself isn't listed, it's the case the barn and the land with it are 'Curtilage Listed,' whereby the old original farmhouse is Grade 2 Listed, and the barn falls within its curtilage.
Does anyone live, or have experience of living in / moving to a barn or house which is Curtilage Listed? We've received the document granting planning permission, plus the certificates of completion, elec and gas certificates etc from when the barn was converted in 2019, so I'm not concerned about the conversion itself and its legality. The main concern is whether / how we might get planning in the future to build a carport and workshop (these are the only things we'd want to build additionally on the site).
We have asked our solicitor to do some digging, but are there any specific questions we should be asking?
If anyone has any experience of this, particularly around buildings which are curtilage listed, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
All the best
We're in the process of buying a new house; a barn conversion converted in 2019 from an old farm barn. We've just had the Property Information Form though and it notes the barn as listed. Whilst it turns out the barn itself isn't listed, it's the case the barn and the land with it are 'Curtilage Listed,' whereby the old original farmhouse is Grade 2 Listed, and the barn falls within its curtilage.
Does anyone live, or have experience of living in / moving to a barn or house which is Curtilage Listed? We've received the document granting planning permission, plus the certificates of completion, elec and gas certificates etc from when the barn was converted in 2019, so I'm not concerned about the conversion itself and its legality. The main concern is whether / how we might get planning in the future to build a carport and workshop (these are the only things we'd want to build additionally on the site).
We have asked our solicitor to do some digging, but are there any specific questions we should be asking?
If anyone has any experience of this, particularly around buildings which are curtilage listed, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
All the best
As I understand it any building listing includes the entire curtliage so this is not a unique situation.
Per other modifications to the building you will have to get the local conservation officer on side with your plans and no doubt pay extra listed building tax every step of the way
Per other modifications to the building you will have to get the local conservation officer on side with your plans and no doubt pay extra listed building tax every step of the way
A listed building includes all structures within it's curtilage so when the barn was part of the farm it was listed. When the barn was separated from the farmhouse and put onto a separate land registry entry that would have been the time to enquire whether it could be removed from the listed register. As it still shows as listed that's what it is so you have the same issues as the rest of us getting garages built.
You won't get PD and any construction/alterations will have to go through the conservation officer who may or may not refuse. Some CO are great others less so.... Certainly you can forget chucking up a metal frame 4 car garage, it is more than likely going to need an architect.
You won't get PD and any construction/alterations will have to go through the conservation officer who may or may not refuse. Some CO are great others less so.... Certainly you can forget chucking up a metal frame 4 car garage, it is more than likely going to need an architect.
DKL said:
You won't get PD and any construction/alterations will have to go through the conservation officer who may or may not refuse. Some CO are great others less so.... Certainly you can forget chucking up a metal frame 4 car garage, it is more than likely going to need an architect.
We tried getting PP for a 4 car garage ( house is G2 ) which even with a well crafted design and access statement and “ good siting “ of the garage etc was flatly refused. Probably didn’t help that we already had a number of other garages etc.
Persevering and changing to an oak framed “ cart shed “ did finally get permission but only after we had then agreed to match the roof on it to the same handmade roof tiles as on the house.
TownIdiot said:
It won't be impossible to get permission to build but it could be much more difficult and the curtilage won't have any permitted development rights.
If building new stuff is important for your enjoyment of the property I'd say you need to reconsider
I thought more modern barn conversions often had PD rights removed in the first place also.If building new stuff is important for your enjoyment of the property I'd say you need to reconsider
Essentially to make you have to go through planning for any change to make sure it’s in keeping?
I’d just get your apps in and keep chipping away till you get what’s allowable.
Mr Whippy said:
I thought more modern barn conversions often had PD rights removed in the first place also.
Essentially to make you have to go through planning for any change to make sure it’s in keeping?
I’d just get your apps in and keep chipping away till you get what’s allowable.
Bit of a risky approach if you absolutely need/want the new building.Essentially to make you have to go through planning for any change to make sure it’s in keeping?
I’d just get your apps in and keep chipping away till you get what’s allowable.
If the conservation people have decided that "in keeping" means "nothing" then it's a very uphill battle.
Well take some advice first, don’t want to be egregious 
It’s more than reasonable to ask and expect a reasonable response.
But yeah, barn conversions already a pita due to no PD.
Add in an inherited listing then even more difficult.
Best way to view a newer barn conversion is to say you’ll be happy with it like that forever, as changing it will need agreement, irrespective of it being listed in this case.
It’s more than reasonable to ask and expect a reasonable response.
But yeah, barn conversions already a pita due to no PD.
Add in an inherited listing then even more difficult.
Best way to view a newer barn conversion is to say you’ll be happy with it like that forever, as changing it will need agreement, irrespective of it being listed in this case.
Hi all,
Thanks for the replies, all useful info.
The barn itself is exactly as we'd want it in terms of overall space and layout, so we'd not be looking to change that at any point. The plot is circa 0.8 acre, so plenty of space for a modest garage. We'd not be looking to put up a large metal framed shed or similar, simply a timber frame garage / carport with side workshop and log store (similar to Prime Oak / Cheshire Oak Structures etc.).
Looking through the documentation we have from when the barn was converted a few years ago, it appears the Conservation Team and Local Planning Authority were pretty reasonable, so I'm sure we'll be able to get something sympathetic agreed.
Thanks again.
Thanks for the replies, all useful info.
The barn itself is exactly as we'd want it in terms of overall space and layout, so we'd not be looking to change that at any point. The plot is circa 0.8 acre, so plenty of space for a modest garage. We'd not be looking to put up a large metal framed shed or similar, simply a timber frame garage / carport with side workshop and log store (similar to Prime Oak / Cheshire Oak Structures etc.).
Looking through the documentation we have from when the barn was converted a few years ago, it appears the Conservation Team and Local Planning Authority were pretty reasonable, so I'm sure we'll be able to get something sympathetic agreed.
Thanks again.
It is all a bit of a dance with planners to a certain degree.
Lots of people around and about us seem to go for open sided timber sheds to more portal things, and eventually a door and it’s a de facto garage.
We just had a permission for a bunch of barn conversions and worked hard to put ‘garages’ on them… but really portal things that then also don’t add to square footage for social housing iirc.
For now they’re portal things but no doubt in 10yrs they’ll all get permission for doors.
As I said earlier best to just take solid advice for a good starting point, and then figure out what’s needed to make it work for making planners happy.
Lots of people around and about us seem to go for open sided timber sheds to more portal things, and eventually a door and it’s a de facto garage.
We just had a permission for a bunch of barn conversions and worked hard to put ‘garages’ on them… but really portal things that then also don’t add to square footage for social housing iirc.
For now they’re portal things but no doubt in 10yrs they’ll all get permission for doors.
As I said earlier best to just take solid advice for a good starting point, and then figure out what’s needed to make it work for making planners happy.
We have exactly the same situation. Our barn is within the curtilage of a listed building. Basically we need listed building consent for every external change. Generally no problem obtaining it but the hoops have to be jumped through. The sensitivity will come about if the proposed change imapcts the character or the aesthetic, of the buildings and their setting.
Eg - our neighbour had a 4ft high palisade fence refused.
Eg - our neighbour had a 4ft high palisade fence refused.
KenJ said:
Hi all,
Thanks for the replies, all useful info.
The barn itself is exactly as we'd want it in terms of overall space and layout, so we'd not be looking to change that at any point. The plot is circa 0.8 acre, so plenty of space for a modest garage. We'd not be looking to put up a large metal framed shed or similar, simply a timber frame garage / carport with side workshop and log store (similar to Prime Oak / Cheshire Oak Structures etc.).
Looking through the documentation we have from when the barn was converted a few years ago, it appears the Conservation Team and Local Planning Authority were pretty reasonable, so I'm sure we'll be able to get something sympathetic agreed.
Thanks again.
As a first step, discuss with the CO what you actually want and then go from there. Thanks for the replies, all useful info.
The barn itself is exactly as we'd want it in terms of overall space and layout, so we'd not be looking to change that at any point. The plot is circa 0.8 acre, so plenty of space for a modest garage. We'd not be looking to put up a large metal framed shed or similar, simply a timber frame garage / carport with side workshop and log store (similar to Prime Oak / Cheshire Oak Structures etc.).
Looking through the documentation we have from when the barn was converted a few years ago, it appears the Conservation Team and Local Planning Authority were pretty reasonable, so I'm sure we'll be able to get something sympathetic agreed.
Thanks again.
I have a steel barn next to a listed building, and recently got PP to convert a closer building. Whilst “sympathetic” can sometimes be appropriate, some COs are keener than others to see the difference between old and new made clear, and potential pastiches avoided.
To counter this I had a green oak framed garage rejected. They were only going to accept a bespoke design of "architectural merit".
A local architect felt they could get it passed but the cost was way too much for a garage.
CO are very variable, some take the view that someone has to live in it others seem to take great delight in turning everything down. Ours was the latter in this case. She was almost apoplectic when I suggested solar panels on the roof!
But yes make contact and see how they seem.
A local architect felt they could get it passed but the cost was way too much for a garage.
CO are very variable, some take the view that someone has to live in it others seem to take great delight in turning everything down. Ours was the latter in this case. She was almost apoplectic when I suggested solar panels on the roof!
But yes make contact and see how they seem.
OutInTheShed said:
Living in someone else's 'curtilage'.
f
k that, unless it's really cheap.
Its not legal curtilage. Its the area that was originally within the grounds of the listed building. For instance I live in a village where every house was one within the curtilage of the manor that owned the village.f
k that, unless it's really cheap.DKL said:
To counter this I had a green oak framed garage rejected. They were only going to accept a bespoke design of "architectural merit".
A local architect felt they could get it passed but the cost was way too much for a garage.
CO are very variable, some take the view that someone has to live in it others seem to take great delight in turning everything down. Ours was the latter in this case. She was almost apoplectic when I suggested solar panels on the roof!
But yes make contact and see how they seem.
and yet todays news had a bit about York minster having solar panels on it,A local architect felt they could get it passed but the cost was way too much for a garage.
CO are very variable, some take the view that someone has to live in it others seem to take great delight in turning everything down. Ours was the latter in this case. She was almost apoplectic when I suggested solar panels on the roof!
But yes make contact and see how they seem.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czd4de7gl98o
We lived next door to a 15th century Church.
When we decided to have an extension we were restricted by the rule that we were within 100m of a Grade 1 Listed Building so no permitted development and full planning was needed.
Wasn't too much of a pain and the council were surprisingly quite helpful in getting it through.
When we decided to have an extension we were restricted by the rule that we were within 100m of a Grade 1 Listed Building so no permitted development and full planning was needed.
Wasn't too much of a pain and the council were surprisingly quite helpful in getting it through.
Advice. Don't.
Well maybe not, but the problem with any involvement of listed building control and to an extent conservation areas aren't much (but are slightly) better, is any decisions you want to make regarding YOUR property will possibly involve someone else, and if it's a decision that would have involved someone else (eg. Planning) then it will still also involve listed building consent too, in short it's just another layer of pita.
Now if you have no intention of ever doing anything that may need involvement, it might be ideal, but do bare in mind it will put some buyers off if you come to sell. I wouldn't buy another property that's listed.
If you get a good conservation department/officer your laughing, ours was like that, unfortunately they then changed staff and now it's a complete nightmare. They have a member of staff (possibly the chief conservation officer) who's hobbies include vegan food, knitting and (I st you not) walking around villages on a weekend looking for planning violations. Get one like that and you can forget your house being yours.
Well maybe not, but the problem with any involvement of listed building control and to an extent conservation areas aren't much (but are slightly) better, is any decisions you want to make regarding YOUR property will possibly involve someone else, and if it's a decision that would have involved someone else (eg. Planning) then it will still also involve listed building consent too, in short it's just another layer of pita.
Now if you have no intention of ever doing anything that may need involvement, it might be ideal, but do bare in mind it will put some buyers off if you come to sell. I wouldn't buy another property that's listed.
If you get a good conservation department/officer your laughing, ours was like that, unfortunately they then changed staff and now it's a complete nightmare. They have a member of staff (possibly the chief conservation officer) who's hobbies include vegan food, knitting and (I s
t you not) walking around villages on a weekend looking for planning violations. Get one like that and you can forget your house being yours.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff