Electric Underfloor Heating Options
Discussion
This is my kitchen/diner, measures approx 50sq m in total. The area at the back of the picture is a vaulted ceiling (3.5m high) with velux windows and as you can see two bi-fold doors. This area is all external walls.
This room is “heated” by electric underfloor heating fitted by the previous owners, controlled by a wi-fi enabled thermostat on the wall that reads the air temp. I can program this with unlimited variants of temp and on/off times as you’d expect so i’m trying to manage it, but having been here for 2 winters now it is clear this is a massive expense and costs £250-£300 a month on its own during Dec-Feb. It keeps the room relatively warm, but the room temp will drop to 14 or 15 deg within a few hours if it is turned off, which it is between 9pm-5am.
I need to work out best options. Replacing it with central heating (either underfloor or standard rads) seems best, although perhaps air con or something else would work?
Or is there a more economical way of programming it? I think it uses something like 4kw per hour so i try to keep it on for only an hour or two at a time and have programmed six on periods throughout the day.
Aside from better insulation, would gas fired underfloor save me a significant cost, or do i need to look at other options?
TIA.
This room is “heated” by electric underfloor heating fitted by the previous owners, controlled by a wi-fi enabled thermostat on the wall that reads the air temp. I can program this with unlimited variants of temp and on/off times as you’d expect so i’m trying to manage it, but having been here for 2 winters now it is clear this is a massive expense and costs £250-£300 a month on its own during Dec-Feb. It keeps the room relatively warm, but the room temp will drop to 14 or 15 deg within a few hours if it is turned off, which it is between 9pm-5am.
I need to work out best options. Replacing it with central heating (either underfloor or standard rads) seems best, although perhaps air con or something else would work?
Or is there a more economical way of programming it? I think it uses something like 4kw per hour so i try to keep it on for only an hour or two at a time and have programmed six on periods throughout the day.
Aside from better insulation, would gas fired underfloor save me a significant cost, or do i need to look at other options?
TIA.
there's just no way to keep it cost effective, electric ufh is good for keeping tiles warm in somewhere like a bathroom but heating a large room with it is going to end up exactly as you have
UFH from the gas boiler would be most effective but a massive undertaking. there are low-profile overlay options you can add nowadays but you're still taking up the tiles and adding a little bit of floor height which might cause issues at doors etc.
The other option would be a split a/c unit - which might help with cooling in summer, if the room gets hot - but you will need to take pipes from it to an outside wall and it's still 1kW+ on cold days
I'd be trying to fit a big radiator to the wall on the right and dropping the pipes from above / chasing them into the wall. is it close-ish to existing pipework?
UFH from the gas boiler would be most effective but a massive undertaking. there are low-profile overlay options you can add nowadays but you're still taking up the tiles and adding a little bit of floor height which might cause issues at doors etc.
The other option would be a split a/c unit - which might help with cooling in summer, if the room gets hot - but you will need to take pipes from it to an outside wall and it's still 1kW+ on cold days
I'd be trying to fit a big radiator to the wall on the right and dropping the pipes from above / chasing them into the wall. is it close-ish to existing pipework?
Edited by essayer on Friday 10th January 09:34
essayer said:
I'd be trying to fit a big radiator to the wall on the right and dropping the pipes from above / chasing them into the wall. is it close-ish to existing pipework?
Thanks for the response. Yes, behind that wall on the right of the picture there is a downstairs toiler which has a radiator in it (albeit on the far wall) and there is also a rad in the hallway which is to the right of the picture as well and on the shared wall with the kitchen.Edited by essayer on Friday 10th January 09:34
I don't want to pull up tiles unless I was doing the kitchen as well, so I'll park that idea. It does get hot in there in summer as the room is south facing, so A/C may be an option as well.
Obviously a bit upfront cost, but are solar panels an option to get your electricity costs down?
Relevant thread for me as I've just moved into a house with downstairs UFH that supplements the Rayburn, and we're trying to use it as little as possible. Eventually solar seems like a good option but I haven't done any calcs to decide if it really makes sense.
Relevant thread for me as I've just moved into a house with downstairs UFH that supplements the Rayburn, and we're trying to use it as little as possible. Eventually solar seems like a good option but I haven't done any calcs to decide if it really makes sense.
Jefferson Steelflex said:
Thanks for the response. Yes, behind that wall on the right of the picture there is a downstairs toiler which has a radiator in it (albeit on the far wall) and there is also a rad in the hallway which is to the right of the picture as well and on the shared wall with the kitchen.
I don't want to pull up tiles unless I was doing the kitchen as well, so I'll park that idea. It does get hot in there in summer as the room is south facing, so A/C may be an option as well.
You can get heat pump AC units which heat as well as cool so maybe find an installer who can look at the size of room & work out if it could be heated effectively via the AC unit - then you'll be cool in summer as well. Adding radiators linked to the existing heating may work as well as long as the drops to the existing ones aren't too small - there's a limit to how much heat you can pull through a 10mm pipe.I don't want to pull up tiles unless I was doing the kitchen as well, so I'll park that idea. It does get hot in there in summer as the room is south facing, so A/C may be an option as well.
I've got a very similar situation to you, OP. Kitchen with single storey extension part (the back area through the square arch) and an electric UFH installation. Except it was me that made the mistake and installed it - in mitigation this was 15 years ago so had no idea electricity prices were going to be subject to such increases. Previously there had been a radiator where the patio doors are, as there was a low wall there with window above and a single back door to the right hand side. Seeing that there was now zero wall space anywhere for a radiator, we went UFH and went with the cheapest install cost option - electric. Yes, regret that now.
I think my only option is a total rip put and re-do, which I don't want to undertake, so I've been wondering if there's any way I could install a small battery somewhere and charge it on off peak electricity (I use Octopus Agile as I have an EV), for exclusive use of this UFH device. Thoughts, anyone? maybe a small solar panel on the extension roof charging that battery? How could I wire that to the UFH exclusively, I wonder? Might work for OP?
I think my only option is a total rip put and re-do, which I don't want to undertake, so I've been wondering if there's any way I could install a small battery somewhere and charge it on off peak electricity (I use Octopus Agile as I have an EV), for exclusive use of this UFH device. Thoughts, anyone? maybe a small solar panel on the extension roof charging that battery? How could I wire that to the UFH exclusively, I wonder? Might work for OP?
MajorMantra said:
Obviously a bit upfront cost, but are solar panels an option to get your electricity costs down?
Relevant thread for me as I've just moved into a house with downstairs UFH that supplements the Rayburn, and we're trying to use it as little as possible. Eventually solar seems like a good option but I haven't done any calcs to decide if it really makes sense.
Unfortunately, the sums won't work out as you need the most heating on dull days with little solar gain in the room. if the OP is spending £10/day at the moment, that implies around 40kWh electricity use (seems reasonable, we're currently using 100-150kWh per day of gas to heat the whole house). My solar array is quite big (18 panels, 8kw peak) and is only generating 100-500W for 6 hours a day on a dull day - ie less than 3kWh per day so you would need around 200 panels to get enough to run the heating when you really need it.Relevant thread for me as I've just moved into a house with downstairs UFH that supplements the Rayburn, and we're trying to use it as little as possible. Eventually solar seems like a good option but I haven't done any calcs to decide if it really makes sense.
ref the battery comment - again, a typical home battery is 5-10kWh capacity so you would need a lot of batteries and inverters to be able to store up 40kWh at cheap rate (batteries will only charge at 2kW in cold weather).
the reality is that we depend on gas for heating as it is only 25% of the cost of electricity per kWh - air or ground source heat pumps close the gap as they increase efficiency to 300-400%.
Fundamentally, these rooms are a bit disastrous thermally.
You could consider looking at the heat loss side as well as the heat input side.
We have big patio doors in our lounge, when it's dark and very cold, closing some heavy thermal curtains makes a very big difference.
Not sure that's ideal in a kitchen.
If you heated the room by gas or ASHP, you'd maybe save 2/3 of the cost, so maybe you'd save a grand a year at most?
So the payback time for major work is not short.
So, if it's cheap and easy to get some rads in there, consider it?
Slightly oddball suggestion, matrix blower heaters behind the unit kickboards can be relatively easy to retrofit.
Batteries might be worth a look, but that's quite a few kWh of battery, payback time is again not super short.
When you get down to it, if you want the open plan big window kitchen, it costs money to run, like it costs money to run a nice car or a boat or whatever choices you make. Like if I buy an old place with a bloody Aga, it will cost another grand a year on top of 'normal' heating bills, that's probably 15 or 20k before we downsize, which is small change in 'lifestyle homes' terms.
I have friends with a ~4 year old house with a similar kitchen with big glazing, modern build standards obviously, ASHP to UFH and their heating bills are in the same league as mine.
As with cars, people get interested in the running costs while ignoring the capital costs of things that are not 'forever'.
You could consider looking at the heat loss side as well as the heat input side.
We have big patio doors in our lounge, when it's dark and very cold, closing some heavy thermal curtains makes a very big difference.
Not sure that's ideal in a kitchen.
If you heated the room by gas or ASHP, you'd maybe save 2/3 of the cost, so maybe you'd save a grand a year at most?
So the payback time for major work is not short.
So, if it's cheap and easy to get some rads in there, consider it?
Slightly oddball suggestion, matrix blower heaters behind the unit kickboards can be relatively easy to retrofit.
Batteries might be worth a look, but that's quite a few kWh of battery, payback time is again not super short.
When you get down to it, if you want the open plan big window kitchen, it costs money to run, like it costs money to run a nice car or a boat or whatever choices you make. Like if I buy an old place with a bloody Aga, it will cost another grand a year on top of 'normal' heating bills, that's probably 15 or 20k before we downsize, which is small change in 'lifestyle homes' terms.
I have friends with a ~4 year old house with a similar kitchen with big glazing, modern build standards obviously, ASHP to UFH and their heating bills are in the same league as mine.
As with cars, people get interested in the running costs while ignoring the capital costs of things that are not 'forever'.
We had a similar situation with a kitchen we inherited with electric UFH (cold Edwardian house..) and have now put in a radiator - if you have a way to run the plumbing from the existing then it’s a no brainer to be honest and my wife (designer by profession) accepted it as we got a nice looking Coloured Stelrad one.
MajorMantra said:
Obviously a bit upfront cost, but are solar panels an option to get your electricity costs down?
Relevant thread for me as I've just moved into a house with downstairs UFH that supplements the Rayburn, and we're trying to use it as little as possible. Eventually solar seems like a good option but I haven't done any calcs to decide if it really makes sense.
I’d go solar too. Plus the panels must block some heat on the roof in the summer. It might be that the extra electricity generation in the sunnier months helps offset the cost of running the electric UFH in the winter. Relevant thread for me as I've just moved into a house with downstairs UFH that supplements the Rayburn, and we're trying to use it as little as possible. Eventually solar seems like a good option but I haven't done any calcs to decide if it really makes sense.
essayer said:
there's just no way to keep it cost effective, electric ufh is good for keeping tiles warm in somewhere like a bathroom but heating a large room with it is going to end up exactly as you have
UFH from the gas boiler would be most effective but a massive undertaking. there are low-profile overlay options you can add nowadays but you're still taking up the tiles and adding a little bit of floor height which might cause issues at doors etc.
The other option would be a split a/c unit - which might help with cooling in summer, if the room gets hot - but you will need to take pipes from it to an outside wall and it's still 1kW+ on cold days
I'd be trying to fit a big radiator to the wall on the right and dropping the pipes from above / chasing them into the wall. is it close-ish to existing pipework?
Listen to this man , especially the last bit . UFH from the gas boiler would be most effective but a massive undertaking. there are low-profile overlay options you can add nowadays but you're still taking up the tiles and adding a little bit of floor height which might cause issues at doors etc.
The other option would be a split a/c unit - which might help with cooling in summer, if the room gets hot - but you will need to take pipes from it to an outside wall and it's still 1kW+ on cold days
I'd be trying to fit a big radiator to the wall on the right and dropping the pipes from above / chasing them into the wall. is it close-ish to existing pipework?
Edited by essayer on Friday 10th January 09:34
Simon_GH said:
I’d go solar too. Plus the panels must block some heat on the roof in the summer. It might be that the extra electricity generation in the sunnier months helps offset the cost of running the electric UFH in the winter.
Would solar produce enough power in winter to adequately offset costs? If doing solar you'd best combine it with split A/C so it can do cooling in summer too. I'd put in a radiator in order to supplement the UFH. The rad can do the heavy lifting and the UFH take the edge off if needed.
Jefferson Steelflex said:
...I need to work out best options. Replacing it with central heating (either underfloor or standard rads) seems best, although perhaps air con or something else would work?...
Have a look at hydronic plinth heaters. Plumbed into your wet CH like a radiator they have an electric fan which blows warm air across the floor which may help the room feel warmer.I don't think you'll get anywhere with solar/battery options, KISS. It's just not practical in a UK house in winter.
Better options would be some big big radiators (they can be as attractive/subtle as you want) or perhaps wet plinth heaters. Both would use your house's wet central heating system. Or A/C mini-splits.
Ripping out the floor to fit wet UFH would be very expensive, but you could replace those tiles with something which would feel warmer at the same time.
Better options would be some big big radiators (they can be as attractive/subtle as you want) or perhaps wet plinth heaters. Both would use your house's wet central heating system. Or A/C mini-splits.
Ripping out the floor to fit wet UFH would be very expensive, but you could replace those tiles with something which would feel warmer at the same time.
Well sized rads with pipework to allow good flow rates.
You could also put 30 or 50 mm of internal insulation on the end internal wall without too much hassle by the look of it. My son’s bedroom has three external walls like this room, it now has internal insulation which has made it the room with the lowest heating requirement of all the upstairs rooms despite being the most “exposed”.
You could also put 30 or 50 mm of internal insulation on the end internal wall without too much hassle by the look of it. My son’s bedroom has three external walls like this room, it now has internal insulation which has made it the room with the lowest heating requirement of all the upstairs rooms despite being the most “exposed”.
I agree with the "add a radiator" advice.
We installed UF electric in all our bathrooms (tiled wooden floors, so electric was the only viable UF option). I turned the temps down using the floor temp upper limit setting on the controller, but they still consumed vast amounts of elec. With electricity price increases over the past few years, they are now permanently off. Thankfully we have wet radiators in each bathroom, so it is only underfoot warmth we are missing out on.
With an EV tariff, there is the possibility of running Elec UF from midnight until early morning, but not sure if the thermal mass is sufficient to make a difference after you wake up. Regardless, a wet radiator is what you need IMO.
We installed UF electric in all our bathrooms (tiled wooden floors, so electric was the only viable UF option). I turned the temps down using the floor temp upper limit setting on the controller, but they still consumed vast amounts of elec. With electricity price increases over the past few years, they are now permanently off. Thankfully we have wet radiators in each bathroom, so it is only underfoot warmth we are missing out on.
With an EV tariff, there is the possibility of running Elec UF from midnight until early morning, but not sure if the thermal mass is sufficient to make a difference after you wake up. Regardless, a wet radiator is what you need IMO.
Electric only UFH is tough. We have it in areas of our house but it is in addition to radiators and mainly to make the floor warm (and the thermostat is sensing on floor temp, not air temp). AC might be a good option if you want it elsewhere and you can run a few indoor units off one outdoor compressor, but otherwise you should probably just add a rad or two.
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