Ideal Boiler Filling Loop Issue

[Arrivalist]

Hi,

I have an Ideal combi boiler (Vogue 40) and I noticed low pressure today. Went to use the filling loop and water will not enter the boiler. Water side is fine and when I take off loop and open the boiler side, water comes out. So assume inlet valve stuck?

Any idea on a quick fix or do I need a trusty plumber?

Cheers!

[119]

You sure there isn't an isolator on either ends of the filling loop?

[Arrivalist]

119 said:

You sure there isn't an isolator on either ends of the filling loop?

The loop tube is just an open tube, if that’s what you mean.

[119]

Something like this?

From 0:35

https://youtu.be/aB-_PTS1Nx8?feature=shared

[Arrivalist]

119 said:

Something like this?

From 0:35

https://youtu.be/aB-_PTS1Nx8?feature=shared

Indeed. The water starts to flow when opening the blue side BUT it will not enter the boiler. It’s as though there’s a blockage beyond the black tap.

Have used it many times before so assume a failure of something.

[JoshSm]

Are you sure the valve moved when you turned the handle? Those crappy valves can get stuck and the handle then twists without operating it.

Alternatively is there a non return inline that might be stuck?

If it's just a ball valve and nothing else you might be able to stick a screwdriver up it to poke any blockage. Obviously being ready to shut the valve before getting too wet.

[Arrivalist]

JoshSm said:

Are you sure the valve moved when you turned the handle? Those crappy valves can get stuck and the handle then twists without operating it.

Alternatively is there a non return inline that might be stuck?

If it's just a ball valve and nothing else you might be able to stick a screwdriver up it to poke any blockage. Obviously being ready to shut the valve before getting too wet.

I undid the filling loop from the cold water and turned it on and water goes into my bucket. If I take the filling loop off of the boiler side and open that valve, then water comes out of the boiler. So basically there doesn’t seem to be a problem with the loop itself. I think it’s the non-return of valve on the boiler side that is knackered.

I could fart around with a screwdriver BUT I seem to have just enough pressure for the boiler to work at present so not keen on losing any more water from the boiler which is registering pretty much zero at the moment.

I think the non-return valve will need replacing anyway so have a plumber coming on Monday.

Thanks both of you for trying to help.

[Rockatansky]

I have a different model of ideal boiler, but I think it needs to be turned off to get it to fill from the loop. I could be wrong, but I've got a feeling that I had an issue in the past and that was the answer.

[Arrivalist]

Rockatansky said:

I have a different model of ideal boiler, but I think it needs to be turned off to get it to fill from the loop. I could be wrong, but I've got a feeling that I had an issue in the past and that was the answer.

Unfortunately not.

[Pheo]

I always get this muddled up in my vogue as there are two valves which have to be in the right place, one is the main water supply and one iirc switches between incoming cold for hot water and filling the loop.

Make sure you have the mains on but also then switch to filling the circuit. It takes me a couple of tries most times as I’m forever starting by turning the water off completely and then wondering why it won’t fill

[Arrivalist]

Pheo said:

I always get this muddled up in my vogue as there are two valves which have to be in the right place, one is the main water supply and one iirc switches between incoming cold for hot water and filling the loop.

Make sure you have the mains on but also then switch to filling the circuit. It takes me a couple of tries most times as I m forever starting by turning the water off completely and then wondering why it won t fill

[Arrivalist]

Pheo said:

I always get this muddled up in my vogue as there are two valves which have to be in the right place, one is the main water supply and one iirc switches between incoming cold for hot water and filling the loop.

Make sure you have the mains on but also then switch to filling the circuit. It takes me a couple of tries most times as I m forever starting by turning the water off completely and then wondering why it won t fill

I’m absolutely clear how to do this as I’ve done it year after year. This time there’s a problem and I can’t solve so the plumber tomorrow will do so.

[Pheo]

I always get this muddled up in my vogue as there are two valves which have to be in the right place, one is the main water supply and one iirc switches between incoming cold for hot water and filling the loop.

Make sure you have the mains on but also then switch to filling the circuit. It takes me a couple of tries most times as I’m forever starting by turning the water off completely and then wondering why it won’t fill

[megaphone]

If you're filling the system 'year after year' then you have a leak that needs fixing, get the plumber to try and find out where the system is leaking.

Not good to keep pushing fresh water into a sealed system, dilutes the inhibitor and causes sludge.

[Arrivalist]

megaphone said:

If you're filling the system 'year after year' then you have a leak that needs fixing, get the plumber to try and find out where the system is leaking.

Not good to keep pushing fresh water into a sealed system, dilutes the inhibitor and causes sludge.

My ‘year after year’ comment’ was merely a turn of phrase to explain that I know what I’m doing when using the filling loop . Typically it only happens when need to bleed a towel rail

After saying that, I’ll get the plumber to do a thorough check when they come round today.

[megaphone]

Arrivalist said:

megaphone said:

If you're filling the system 'year after year' then you have a leak that needs fixing, get the plumber to try and find out where the system is leaking.

Not good to keep pushing fresh water into a sealed system, dilutes the inhibitor and causes sludge.

My year after year comment was merely a turn of phrase to explain that I know what I m doing when using the filling loop . Typically it only happens when need to bleed a towel rail

After saying that, I ll get the plumber to do a thorough check when they come round today.

But why do you need to bleed the towel rail? Must have a leak somewhere. First place to start checking is around the rad valves, make sure none are leaking. Then check the joints around the boiler. Tell tail sign is green stains on the copper pipes. Worst case you have a leaky joint under the floor.

[Arrivalist]

megaphone said:

Arrivalist said:

megaphone said:

If you're filling the system 'year after year' then you have a leak that needs fixing, get the plumber to try and find out where the system is leaking.

Not good to keep pushing fresh water into a sealed system, dilutes the inhibitor and causes sludge.

My year after year comment was merely a turn of phrase to explain that I know what I m doing when using the filling loop . Typically it only happens when need to bleed a towel rail

After saying that, I ll get the plumber to do a thorough check when they come round today.

But why do you need to bleed the towel rail? Must have a leak somewhere. First place to start checking is around the rad valves, make sure none are leaking. Then check the joints around the boiler. Tell tail sign is green stains on the copper pipes. Worst case you have a leaky joint under the floor.

Thanks for your tenacity, its appreciated as I’ve just been for another look and think I know what’s going on

I’ve only topped up the towel rail once in 2 years so obviously a very small leak somewhere.

I have a wet UFH system which has continuously pipes to and from the manifold so it’s not there.

BUT - there’s a load of green build-up all over the water feed valve for the filling loop so suspect the issue is from the valve or, possibly more likely, the boiler itself.

Hopefully plumber will tell me I need a new part (expansion vessel?) but will see later.

Cheers!

[Arrivalist]

Just to add … if the boiler is knackered and needs replacing, is the answer WB Greenstar?

[OutInTheShed]

megaphone said:

If you're filling the system 'year after year' then you have a leak that needs fixing, get the plumber to try and find out where the system is leaking.

Not good to keep pushing fresh water into a sealed system, dilutes the inhibitor and causes sludge.

That's nonsense really.
Most older systems need topping up a little every year or even a couple of times a year.
The quantity of water to de-pressurise a system can be very small.
Microscopic seepage past the seals in the radiator valves adds up over time.
A few seals within the boiler casing of a combi.

Many boilers when you open the taps on the filling loop, it sounds like gallons of water rushing in.
You may find the actual flow rate in the filling loop is quite slow.

Unless you're needing to re-pressurise every week, you quite likely won't find the leak(s).

E.g. the volume of water can be as little as a litre. Over 6 months that's 5.5cc per day. Share that around maybe 20 or more radiator valves and you're talking about tiny drops that evaporate. More so if things seep when the system is hot or as it heats up.

A typical system holds quite a lot of litres, so the dilution of inhibitor isn't really significant either, the stuff wants changing every few years anyway.

[Arrivalist]

OutInTheShed said:

That's nonsense really.
Most older systems need topping up a little every year or even a couple of times a year.
The quantity of water to de-pressurise a system can be very small.
Microscopic seepage past the seals in the radiator valves adds up over time.
A few seals within the boiler casing of a combi.

Many boilers when you open the taps on the filling loop, it sounds like gallons of water rushing in.
You may find the actual flow rate in the filling loop is quite slow.

Unless you're needing to re-pressurise every week, you quite likely won't find the leak(s).

E.g. the volume of water can be as little as a litre. Over 6 months that's 5.5cc per day. Share that around maybe 20 or more radiator valves and you're talking about tiny drops that evaporate. More so if things seep when the system is hot or as it heats up.

A typical system holds quite a lot of litres, so the dilution of inhibitor isn't really significant either, the stuff wants changing every few years anyway.

Good to know and thanks.

It’s typically once a year (or sometimes less) that I have to do a bleed and re-pressurise the boiler. It’s Typically at this time of year when the system has been off since the summer and I’ve not run the towel rails for 6 months or so.

I’ll report back to close the loop on all this once the plumber has been round.