Smart home automation for new build
Discussion
In the process of planning out the electrics for our new build and I have done the standard bit of running Ethernet cables to each room including to the hallways (for PoE access points), and externally (for PoE security cameras). All of this will be terminated in a rack in my study/home office. I am also planning some speakers in the ceiling etc for where our home cinema setup will be placed to future proof for Dolby Atmos.
The one bit that thoroughly confuses me is how to about inserting some sort of lighting automation. What I would ideally like is a way of controlling the lights to come on and off when we're away on holiday - to simulate occupation. One option I did consider was using smart lighting which integrates with Alexa etc, but the issue I have is that all of these are in the shape of bulbs and we won't really have any light fittings in the new place which can take these. It will either be spotlights for task lighting, bedside reading lamps and some decorative chandeliers.
So what I'm really after is some sort of system that can control the lights at the source (switch) rather than the light fitting itself being the smart element, if that makes sense. Systems like Control4 seem to start at around £5k which seems quite a bit and was wondering if there are any other suggestions to look at.
The one bit that thoroughly confuses me is how to about inserting some sort of lighting automation. What I would ideally like is a way of controlling the lights to come on and off when we're away on holiday - to simulate occupation. One option I did consider was using smart lighting which integrates with Alexa etc, but the issue I have is that all of these are in the shape of bulbs and we won't really have any light fittings in the new place which can take these. It will either be spotlights for task lighting, bedside reading lamps and some decorative chandeliers.
So what I'm really after is some sort of system that can control the lights at the source (switch) rather than the light fitting itself being the smart element, if that makes sense. Systems like Control4 seem to start at around £5k which seems quite a bit and was wondering if there are any other suggestions to look at.
According to Alexa we have 130 ad-hoc smart devices which is mainly Ikea, Phillips Hue, Somfy, Tado and Samsung and includes lights, motorised blinds, garage door, central heating including smart TRV's and even the TV's, fridge, washer, dryer.
I have a stack of smart hubs piled up in my router cabinet.
There is no central smart controller to cover everything so we use Alexa to group different devices and use very simple on/off and open/close voice commands. Apart from using the app we don't do anything smart with the central heating. The washer and dryer send alerts when a cycle is completed but we don't smart control the units as such.
Some lighting works with motion sensors which is very useful in bathrooms although if I stand still in the garage for more than 1 minute I am plunged into darkness.
All mainly useful but I can guarantee that from time to time stuff just does not work and it can be very frustrating to keep it all working.
I have a stack of smart hubs piled up in my router cabinet.
There is no central smart controller to cover everything so we use Alexa to group different devices and use very simple on/off and open/close voice commands. Apart from using the app we don't do anything smart with the central heating. The washer and dryer send alerts when a cycle is completed but we don't smart control the units as such.
Some lighting works with motion sensors which is very useful in bathrooms although if I stand still in the garage for more than 1 minute I am plunged into darkness.
All mainly useful but I can guarantee that from time to time stuff just does not work and it can be very frustrating to keep it all working.
Spent time looking into this when we did our new build. The reality is as long as you have 3 core cable going between switch and light, it does open up pretty reasonable automation very cheaply. Ie £10 smart switch, and job jobbed
The only issue we had is they are all 45mm deep vs standard 35mm deep (from memory), so we need to fit a 10mm spacer,which looks daft but is soon forgotten.
You'd also be aamzdd at how rarely you actually use automation. We only have it in the rooms the kids leave the light on... Ie family bathroom. (where you can set an auto off timer)
Not really bothered anywhere else.
The only issue we had is they are all 45mm deep vs standard 35mm deep (from memory), so we need to fit a 10mm spacer,which looks daft but is soon forgotten.
You'd also be aamzdd at how rarely you actually use automation. We only have it in the rooms the kids leave the light on... Ie family bathroom. (where you can set an auto off timer)
Not really bothered anywhere else.
Smart Switches are way better than smart bulbs in my opinion, as anyone who doesn't know your system can just flick the switch and they work like normal. My BiL has Hue lighting and if someone flips a switch the bulb drops off the network.
I'm using Zigbee switches (a mix of Moes and Smartwise) and home assistant running on a miniPC to control them. Home assistant does need a bit of fettling every so often with system updates and the like so read up on it you want to go down that route, however it's very powerful and can do way more than I use it for, which is mainly voice (via Alexa) and motion sensor activation of lights. There's a whole thread on Home Assistant on here, and a useful reddit as well.
If you're building at the moment and plan to go the home automation route, think about things like neutral to light switches, power/conduit to corners of rooms and windows for motion sensors and powered blinds, and ethernet to sensible places to put wifi repeaters.
I'm using Zigbee switches (a mix of Moes and Smartwise) and home assistant running on a miniPC to control them. Home assistant does need a bit of fettling every so often with system updates and the like so read up on it you want to go down that route, however it's very powerful and can do way more than I use it for, which is mainly voice (via Alexa) and motion sensor activation of lights. There's a whole thread on Home Assistant on here, and a useful reddit as well.
If you're building at the moment and plan to go the home automation route, think about things like neutral to light switches, power/conduit to corners of rooms and windows for motion sensors and powered blinds, and ethernet to sensible places to put wifi repeaters.
We've got Control 4, it was installed in a new build house we bought 95% finished. We had never heard of it and didn't want it initially, but having lived with it, we have expanded the system as its actually very good. Especially so if you have electrics gates, pedestrian gates with mag locks, garage doors etc - we find the range of functionality available via the keypad switches across multiple rooms is handy - ie can press the same button once to open the gates, twice to hold, even 3 times if you want it to close etc
We've got speakers in a couple of rooms with cables from the rack to every room in the house, cat 6 or whatever they use for the AV distribution to tv points in all rooms, lighting, heating integration with heatmiser thermostats, CCTV, garage door, gates and the Control 4 intercom (DS2?) and would actually highly recommend it.
Currently the scenes, lights on/off etc can only be programmed via the professional installer's software, but I understand this is going to change towards the end of the year when it will become programmable via the app - doesn't really matter to us as most of the lighting is set for on at dusk and off at either midnight ish or dawn for the exterior etc.
What I would say is having bought a few of the keypads and the dimmable pucks required for the lighting set ups, and experienced the rates charged by the installers to programme them, I don't think £5k would would even begin to get close to a system of any discernible use, but then tbf I have no idea what the system we inherited cost. I also imagine everything it does can be achieved via some of the other suggestions for a fraction of the cost, and as someone else said, I understand that as long as you have a neutral wire (and ideally 47mm back boxes) at your light switches the possibilities are vast.
We've got speakers in a couple of rooms with cables from the rack to every room in the house, cat 6 or whatever they use for the AV distribution to tv points in all rooms, lighting, heating integration with heatmiser thermostats, CCTV, garage door, gates and the Control 4 intercom (DS2?) and would actually highly recommend it.
Currently the scenes, lights on/off etc can only be programmed via the professional installer's software, but I understand this is going to change towards the end of the year when it will become programmable via the app - doesn't really matter to us as most of the lighting is set for on at dusk and off at either midnight ish or dawn for the exterior etc.
What I would say is having bought a few of the keypads and the dimmable pucks required for the lighting set ups, and experienced the rates charged by the installers to programme them, I don't think £5k would would even begin to get close to a system of any discernible use, but then tbf I have no idea what the system we inherited cost. I also imagine everything it does can be achieved via some of the other suggestions for a fraction of the cost, and as someone else said, I understand that as long as you have a neutral wire (and ideally 47mm back boxes) at your light switches the possibilities are vast.
Jayyy said:
We've got Control 4, it was installed in a new build house we bought 95% finished. We had never heard of it and didn't want it initially, but having lived with it, we have expanded the system as its actually very good. Especially so if you have electrics gates, pedestrian gates with mag locks, garage doors etc - we find the range of functionality available via the keypad switches across multiple rooms is handy - ie can press the same button once to open the gates, twice to hold, even 3 times if you want it to close etc
We've got speakers in a couple of rooms with cables from the rack to every room in the house, cat 6 or whatever they use for the AV distribution to tv points in all rooms, lighting, heating integration with heatmiser thermostats, CCTV, garage door, gates and the Control 4 intercom (DS2?) and would actually highly recommend it.
Currently the scenes, lights on/off etc can only be programmed via the professional installer's software, but I understand this is going to change towards the end of the year when it will become programmable via the app - doesn't really matter to us as most of the lighting is set for on at dusk and off at either midnight ish or dawn for the exterior etc.
What I would say is having bought a few of the keypads and the dimmable pucks required for the lighting set ups, and experienced the rates charged by the installers to programme them, I don't think £5k would would even begin to get close to a system of any discernible use, but then tbf I have no idea what the system we inherited cost. I also imagine everything it does can be achieved via some of the other suggestions for a fraction of the cost, and as someone else said, I understand that as long as you have a neutral wire (and ideally 47mm back boxes) at your light switches the possibilities are vast.
You're right there - £5k is the entry point into such a system and for a whole home automation setup like the one you've described, I'd be very surprised if its lower than £30-£40k installed by a professional team. We've got speakers in a couple of rooms with cables from the rack to every room in the house, cat 6 or whatever they use for the AV distribution to tv points in all rooms, lighting, heating integration with heatmiser thermostats, CCTV, garage door, gates and the Control 4 intercom (DS2?) and would actually highly recommend it.
Currently the scenes, lights on/off etc can only be programmed via the professional installer's software, but I understand this is going to change towards the end of the year when it will become programmable via the app - doesn't really matter to us as most of the lighting is set for on at dusk and off at either midnight ish or dawn for the exterior etc.
What I would say is having bought a few of the keypads and the dimmable pucks required for the lighting set ups, and experienced the rates charged by the installers to programme them, I don't think £5k would would even begin to get close to a system of any discernible use, but then tbf I have no idea what the system we inherited cost. I also imagine everything it does can be achieved via some of the other suggestions for a fraction of the cost, and as someone else said, I understand that as long as you have a neutral wire (and ideally 47mm back boxes) at your light switches the possibilities are vast.
OttoMattik said:
You're right there - £5k is the entry point into such a system and for a whole home automation setup like the one you've described, I'd be very surprised if its lower than £30-£40k installed by a professional team.
Which is one of the reasons why home brew systems are so popular. My Home Assistant runs on a £150 mini-PC with a load of a £30 switches and can do pretty much anything a professional system can do for well under 1000, but you need to do a fair bit of configuration and some occasional maintenance yourself, and being Zigbee rather than wired you do very occasionally get a switch or sensor fall off the network. The more consumer focused systems like Hue, Hubitat, SmartThings, Ikea, etc are more plug and play but also more limited in what they can do, and some are reliant on an internet connection and someone elses servers. I can see why the pro systems are expensive as you're paying for it to just work long term without any input.
Actual said:
Some lighting works with motion sensors which is very useful in bathrooms although if I stand still in the garage for more than 1 minute I am plunged into darkness.
Take a look at presence sensors, I put a basic one in my kitchen and it works really well. The cheap ones are only a few meters range but there are bigger more powerful ones. The only downside is they need external power rather than running on batteries like the PIR motion sensorsEdited by RizzoTheRat on Tuesday 30th September 08:26
I have recently completed a new build with very significant home automation.
I use home assistant as the hub. That glues it all together and allows disparate technologies to act as one.
Gets dark. Turn on lights and close curtains and blinds ( which are from different providers ) for example.
Home assistant is self programmed and a fraction of the cost of control 4. It does take time to set up but it very reliable and allows complex automations which are really useful.
We touch pretty much no switches and turn on and off no lights manually. It just does it.
Tv on after 7pm means the cinema dims as do the rest of the lights in the house as it knows we are watching tv. Bedtime and rooms warm. Air con on. 8am. Bedroom air con off. Etc
We use Shelly for lighting automation. We have 88 Shelly devices. These are mostly pretty reliable but we have had some dimmers fail. They now have rack mount dimmers which are their pro series we would have used but they only came out just as we were finishing.
Don't put controllers in back boxes. They need to be mounted centrally in a box (we have din rail adapters for Shelly ). Depending on the size of your house they are then mounted in either one place , one floor or one room. There is a balance of how much extra wire you want to run. Our house is large so we distribute per room in a din box in the ceilings.
Whatever solution you must have normal light switches so if someone is visiting / the tech fails or you want to replace it stuff just works. If a solution relies on you and your phone run for miles.
We control
Lights. Mostly Shelly a few sonoff ( different devices have different strengths )
Tv
Audio - Yamaha music cast
Indoor pool. Bac net with chlorine and oh via a local tuya devise
Leak detection in all bathrooms - tuya
Alexa - warning announcements like leaks
Alarm system
CCTV and Internet - UniFi
Heat - Heat miser neo
Air con. Lg
Blinds / curtains
Music Spotify
And likely more.
Even my wife says it is great. It just works. It is not a geek system it just matches our lifestyle
I use home assistant as the hub. That glues it all together and allows disparate technologies to act as one.
Gets dark. Turn on lights and close curtains and blinds ( which are from different providers ) for example.
Home assistant is self programmed and a fraction of the cost of control 4. It does take time to set up but it very reliable and allows complex automations which are really useful.
We touch pretty much no switches and turn on and off no lights manually. It just does it.
Tv on after 7pm means the cinema dims as do the rest of the lights in the house as it knows we are watching tv. Bedtime and rooms warm. Air con on. 8am. Bedroom air con off. Etc
We use Shelly for lighting automation. We have 88 Shelly devices. These are mostly pretty reliable but we have had some dimmers fail. They now have rack mount dimmers which are their pro series we would have used but they only came out just as we were finishing.
Don't put controllers in back boxes. They need to be mounted centrally in a box (we have din rail adapters for Shelly ). Depending on the size of your house they are then mounted in either one place , one floor or one room. There is a balance of how much extra wire you want to run. Our house is large so we distribute per room in a din box in the ceilings.
Whatever solution you must have normal light switches so if someone is visiting / the tech fails or you want to replace it stuff just works. If a solution relies on you and your phone run for miles.
We control
Lights. Mostly Shelly a few sonoff ( different devices have different strengths )
Tv
Audio - Yamaha music cast
Indoor pool. Bac net with chlorine and oh via a local tuya devise
Leak detection in all bathrooms - tuya
Alexa - warning announcements like leaks
Alarm system
CCTV and Internet - UniFi
Heat - Heat miser neo
Air con. Lg
Blinds / curtains
Music Spotify
And likely more.
Even my wife says it is great. It just works. It is not a geek system it just matches our lifestyle
To add a few points or agree with stuff already mentioned.
Neutral lines to every switch.
Do not put smart bulbs after wall switches. It just makes things far more difficult.
Make sure everything can be controlled by normal switches as well, nothing worse than the hub or internet going down and having to sit in the dark, trying to explain to great aunt Joan she needs an app to turn a light on, or worse still having to shout at Alexa to turn a light on when 6 other people are talking in the same room.
If at all possible use local controlled stuff.
Be careful about any brands you pick that rely on internet access to control, they will at some point stop that access or turn it to subscription based.
Use Home assistant, it can seem daunting at first, but if you take this up seriously you will end up with Home Assistant,so you may as well start there anyway.
Neutral lines to every switch.
Do not put smart bulbs after wall switches. It just makes things far more difficult.
Make sure everything can be controlled by normal switches as well, nothing worse than the hub or internet going down and having to sit in the dark, trying to explain to great aunt Joan she needs an app to turn a light on, or worse still having to shout at Alexa to turn a light on when 6 other people are talking in the same room.
If at all possible use local controlled stuff.
Be careful about any brands you pick that rely on internet access to control, they will at some point stop that access or turn it to subscription based.
Use Home assistant, it can seem daunting at first, but if you take this up seriously you will end up with Home Assistant,so you may as well start there anyway.
Local control is indeed pretty essential for the reasons you state and also home assistant etc breaking as the provider has changed their api or worse ( as you say ) end of lifed the product.
Local control also means you can ignore home assistant updates as it won't break of its own accord.
I do update mine but i do like the fact that if i don't bother 99.9% of it will work regardless.
Local control also means you can ignore home assistant updates as it won't break of its own accord.
I do update mine but i do like the fact that if i don't bother 99.9% of it will work regardless.
I've got Home Assitant running on a mini PC, but I got this after I already had some Shelly devices and a mix of Tapo and Smartlife lamps.
My original setup uses Alexa to control the lights (voice command or schedules/routines) and Shelly switches, and some Tapo motion sensors via the Tapo app.
All works well.
If a light switch gets turned off, obviously the lights are off, but flip the switch again and the lights come on while they are rebooting, and stay on until Alexa (or the motion sensors) tells them to go off again. Reasonably foolproof, just have to flip the switch twice.
I can also control these lights via Home Assistant, but I haven't found it necessary to use it much, Alexa does the job.
When I added some new outside lights (one via a Shelly switch, the other just a Tapo smart bulb), I did the dusk til dawn scheduling via Home Assistant. Shelly automation via their own app is a bit rubbish (very laggy).
Seems to me, if you want full automation, HA is the way to go.
If you want user input, Alexa will do the job and is much simpler to set up.
My original setup uses Alexa to control the lights (voice command or schedules/routines) and Shelly switches, and some Tapo motion sensors via the Tapo app.
All works well.
If a light switch gets turned off, obviously the lights are off, but flip the switch again and the lights come on while they are rebooting, and stay on until Alexa (or the motion sensors) tells them to go off again. Reasonably foolproof, just have to flip the switch twice.
I can also control these lights via Home Assistant, but I haven't found it necessary to use it much, Alexa does the job.
When I added some new outside lights (one via a Shelly switch, the other just a Tapo smart bulb), I did the dusk til dawn scheduling via Home Assistant. Shelly automation via their own app is a bit rubbish (very laggy).
Seems to me, if you want full automation, HA is the way to go.
If you want user input, Alexa will do the job and is much simpler to set up.
clockworks said:
If a light switch gets turned off, obviously the lights are off, but flip the switch again and the lights come on while they are rebooting, and stay on until Alexa (or the motion sensors) tells them to go off again. Reasonably foolproof, just have to flip the switch twice.
.
I am sorry but if had my lights set to come on at sunset and someone had switched one off at the wall and I had to get up to just "switch the switch" twice, it would make the whole thing pointless, and yes I know you can make all kinds of work arounds to get past this problem but not putting a smart bulb after a switch is by far the best way to avoid the issues..
clockworks said:
I can also control these lights via Home Assistant, but I haven't found it necessary to use it much, Alexa does the job.
If you want to do it all in one, take a look at Emulated Hue. My Alexa thinks I have several Hue switches and is set to control them by voice commands, and Home Assistant maps those to specific scenes or light switches. So "Alexa, Kitchen on" flips a virtual Hue switch, which is a trigger for HA to turn the kitchen switch on.To my mind voice control is nice, but proper automation should mean it turns on and off automatically when possible, so our kitchen, hallway and stair wells are all on motion or presence sensors, but the lounge and office are on voice commands as you might be in there but not want the lights on.
Planning how you want to your lights to work can be quite complicated, and an advantage of a home brew system over a commercial one is you can tweak it to get it how you like.
Ask yourself what of all this stuff actually saves you time or makes you happy?
For a new build, future-proofing is the real issue.
Also, the big thing is to have the right lights in the right locations.
How they are controlled may be secondary?
There's also more to it than lights.
Opening/closing blinds and velux windows for instance.
Ventilation fans etc?
For a new build, future-proofing is the real issue.
Also, the big thing is to have the right lights in the right locations.
How they are controlled may be secondary?
There's also more to it than lights.
Opening/closing blinds and velux windows for instance.
Ventilation fans etc?
OutInTheShed said:
Ask yourself what of all this stuff actually saves you time or makes you happy?
For a new build, future-proofing is the real issue.
Also, the big thing is to have the right lights in the right locations.
How they are controlled may be secondary?
There's also more to it than lights.
Opening/closing blinds and velux windows for instance.
Ventilation fans etc?
To me a smart home means automating all the stuff that happens every day, or every weekday or weekend.For a new build, future-proofing is the real issue.
Also, the big thing is to have the right lights in the right locations.
How they are controlled may be secondary?
There's also more to it than lights.
Opening/closing blinds and velux windows for instance.
Ventilation fans etc?
For Example
I have one button that turns on the house first thing, turns on lights we use, puts the radio on around the house. It knows if the sun has risen or not and sets lights accordingly. The light and radio turn off when the last person leaves the house, it changes radio station as set time, when we want to listen to something else. It switches stuff back on when we get home and depending who is coming home it determines what stuff to turn on. If the house needs heating it will check to see who is home and switch it on if someone is home, when we are coming home it turns the heating on if needed when we are about 4 miles away if in the car and a mile away if walking.
This button controls other stuff as well, depending on single or double clicks etc. I use presence detection to turn off and on lights radios and TV depending on if the room is occupied or not.
There are many other things that just happen when needed as well.
I very rarely use a light switch or shout at some voice control, I do have the ability to control anything smart by voice though.
ARH said:
clockworks said:
If a light switch gets turned off, obviously the lights are off, but flip the switch again and the lights come on while they are rebooting, and stay on until Alexa (or the motion sensors) tells them to go off again. Reasonably foolproof, just have to flip the switch twice.
.
I am sorry but if had my lights set to come on at sunset and someone had switched one off at the wall and I had to get up to just "switch the switch" twice, it would make the whole thing pointless, and yes I know you can make all kinds of work arounds to get past this problem but not putting a smart bulb after a switch is by far the best way to avoid the issues..
Where I've got stuff wired from scratch (extractor fan, AV cabinet) I've used Shelly One devices, as well as a standard switch that can manually trigger the Shelly. This way, I can use HA and/or Alexa, as well as a manual override.
One real benefit of just fitting a smart bulb is anyone can just fit a new smart bulb, or go back to a normal bulb. Simple to fix, simple to revert to full manual when you move house. Hardwired stuff will be nightmare when selling up.
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff