Previous home sale prices (not on LR website), council bands
Discussion
I recently purchased my new old house, and I'm certain my solicitor said the prices paid were in the old transfer documents, but when you buy documents on the LR they're just the title documents.
The transfers are from ~ 78 and 88 ish. Then the last transfer was in 2023 for a notional value (inherited) which I have, then mine in 2025 as a purchase.
I'm looking for the data to drop my council tax band down one level as it's currently a G and the neighbour (same design but a slightly smaller house on the plot of two) got theirs down to an F in recent few years using old pricing information.
Between the neighbours data and mine (pretty sure I heard it sold for £96,000 in 88 ish), then the £160,000 G bracket in1991 does indeed seem a bit toppy, my quick sums based on "UK average house prices" gives £102,000 by 91, nowhere near £160,000.
Are transfer documents less accessible than title documents? I can't see an obvious way to access. I'm having trouble getting hold of my conveyancer despite offering a fee for help (they said they will have copies of the documents and deeds from the conveyancing)
Is there any other source of this information?
The transfers are from ~ 78 and 88 ish. Then the last transfer was in 2023 for a notional value (inherited) which I have, then mine in 2025 as a purchase.
I'm looking for the data to drop my council tax band down one level as it's currently a G and the neighbour (same design but a slightly smaller house on the plot of two) got theirs down to an F in recent few years using old pricing information.
Between the neighbours data and mine (pretty sure I heard it sold for £96,000 in 88 ish), then the £160,000 G bracket in1991 does indeed seem a bit toppy, my quick sums based on "UK average house prices" gives £102,000 by 91, nowhere near £160,000.
Are transfer documents less accessible than title documents? I can't see an obvious way to access. I'm having trouble getting hold of my conveyancer despite offering a fee for help (they said they will have copies of the documents and deeds from the conveyancing)
Is there any other source of this information?
Ah it looks like you get 6 months to challenge them formally then after that it's informally.
I've done some work this evening and with the MSE/Nationwide data/calculator it's certainly a band F, using the figure I'd heard in 86/87/88, they all come back well in the F band.
There is also a probate valuation in 2023 that lands it just in F.
Using our purchase price it's right on the F/G boundary, depending on how a bit of land we purchased alongside the property is accounted for.
In any case, it looks like it's a solid F, but drifting towards G over time in "corrected" terms.
Now to pin down the late 1980s transaction since that is the most relevant for the 1991 value.
Am I right in thinking all the values are going to be in the transfer documents?
And that I can access these somehow for reference prices for nearby similar properties?
Many thanks for any help!
I've done some work this evening and with the MSE/Nationwide data/calculator it's certainly a band F, using the figure I'd heard in 86/87/88, they all come back well in the F band.
There is also a probate valuation in 2023 that lands it just in F.
Using our purchase price it's right on the F/G boundary, depending on how a bit of land we purchased alongside the property is accounted for.
In any case, it looks like it's a solid F, but drifting towards G over time in "corrected" terms.
Now to pin down the late 1980s transaction since that is the most relevant for the 1991 value.
Am I right in thinking all the values are going to be in the transfer documents?
And that I can access these somehow for reference prices for nearby similar properties?
Many thanks for any help!
Yes it's amazing how many houses around here don't have any records at all as reference.
Looking at the title document I got before it was trasnsferred to me, it has a date in Jan 87 (but not the price), so assume that the title at that point was created when it was bought in Jan 87, which roughly pins down the date.
I just now need the price data, so assume it's on the 87 deed of transfer.
But on the face of it £96,000 in 1987 equates to £140k, which is middle of the 1991 band F, and is by far the most indicative 1991 value vs the stuff 30-35 years later.
Hopefully this is sufficient to get me out of the 'broadest shoulders' category where I clearly don't belong
Looking at the title document I got before it was trasnsferred to me, it has a date in Jan 87 (but not the price), so assume that the title at that point was created when it was bought in Jan 87, which roughly pins down the date.
I just now need the price data, so assume it's on the 87 deed of transfer.
But on the face of it £96,000 in 1987 equates to £140k, which is middle of the 1991 band F, and is by far the most indicative 1991 value vs the stuff 30-35 years later.
Hopefully this is sufficient to get me out of the 'broadest shoulders' category where I clearly don't belong
Can anyone help with advice?
My conveyancer asked her boss and said she couldn't help with a quote to dig into this on my behalf. She did however say that there was no transfer deeds prior to the 90s at the LR... though how thorough that check was, or accurate, is another matter.
Would it be usual to pay a fee to a professional to just dig into this on my behalf?
My neighbour said they re-banded theirs from G to F based on local similar houses and what they sold for, and used the MSE website guide, but I assume he just went with similar sized houses (his is a bit smaller then mine) and their more recent sales prices and used the calculator to correct the values.
My problem is that using nearby similar properties, it's pushing some of those from an F into a G, which doesn't really help me make my case and I could land them with a jump into 'broad shoulders' category
The Title Register for my property mentions these dates:
June 1978 (land to builder?)
Nov 78 (house to first owner?)
The register entry for this Title is Jan 87.
Then the next date is the probate in 2023.
Do LR keep records of the Jan 87 transfer price? Will there genuinely be no transfer deed for this title? Or do I just need to dig?
I have anecdotal evidence of the 87 price, but no documents to show it. But it shows me bang in the middle of band F which means, potentially, there is a £££ saving by getting myself into an F, which means it's well worth me paying a professional.
Is this a job for a solicitor, a conveyancer, a QS?
My conveyancer asked her boss and said she couldn't help with a quote to dig into this on my behalf. She did however say that there was no transfer deeds prior to the 90s at the LR... though how thorough that check was, or accurate, is another matter.
Would it be usual to pay a fee to a professional to just dig into this on my behalf?
My neighbour said they re-banded theirs from G to F based on local similar houses and what they sold for, and used the MSE website guide, but I assume he just went with similar sized houses (his is a bit smaller then mine) and their more recent sales prices and used the calculator to correct the values.
My problem is that using nearby similar properties, it's pushing some of those from an F into a G, which doesn't really help me make my case and I could land them with a jump into 'broad shoulders' category
The Title Register for my property mentions these dates:
June 1978 (land to builder?)
Nov 78 (house to first owner?)
The register entry for this Title is Jan 87.
Then the next date is the probate in 2023.
Do LR keep records of the Jan 87 transfer price? Will there genuinely be no transfer deed for this title? Or do I just need to dig?
I have anecdotal evidence of the 87 price, but no documents to show it. But it shows me bang in the middle of band F which means, potentially, there is a £££ saving by getting myself into an F, which means it's well worth me paying a professional.
Is this a job for a solicitor, a conveyancer, a QS?
I challenged my last house. I lost. You have no appeal.
My house: small three bed semi with single storey kitchen extension on a steep and awkward plot. Current value £330k. Band E.
Same Cul-de-sac:
- two large 5 bed bungalows with double garages. Worth twice what my house is based on recent sales. Both also Band E.
- our attached neighbour with identical house apart from their extension is nearly twice the size and over two floors, and a large conservatory. Band D.
My house: small three bed semi with single storey kitchen extension on a steep and awkward plot. Current value £330k. Band E.
Same Cul-de-sac:
- two large 5 bed bungalows with double garages. Worth twice what my house is based on recent sales. Both also Band E.
- our attached neighbour with identical house apart from their extension is nearly twice the size and over two floors, and a large conservatory. Band D.
Yes it's farcical really.
I'm just going through all the properties that have sold within 3 miles on RM, cross-referencing with EPC or RM adverts for bedroom/square meters, council tax numbers, etc... and have got a decent bunch of examples.
About 7 are comparable and all F. Almost all detached or detached bungalows with 4/5 beds, larger square footage, similar or higher price points recently.
However half of those are now technically up a band based on recent values, which you could argue shows the correction of values is broken because this is meant to be 1991 values.
And then you kinda realise that between the poor original valuations in 91, and the issue of sales prices not always being indicative of value, subsequent improvements or dilapidations, and the following correction process not being entirely reliable... you're basically just pick and mixing data to suit your argument, and anyone can make any argument they like with ever more sophisticated statistical analysis of correction factors and other b
ks.
Which is why the 1988 value seems to me to pretty much solve it all for my needs.
Also aiui I can appeal, but I need to get it done in the coming three to four weeks because my 6 months runs out on that route of appealing the banding.
I'm just going through all the properties that have sold within 3 miles on RM, cross-referencing with EPC or RM adverts for bedroom/square meters, council tax numbers, etc... and have got a decent bunch of examples.
About 7 are comparable and all F. Almost all detached or detached bungalows with 4/5 beds, larger square footage, similar or higher price points recently.
However half of those are now technically up a band based on recent values, which you could argue shows the correction of values is broken because this is meant to be 1991 values.
And then you kinda realise that between the poor original valuations in 91, and the issue of sales prices not always being indicative of value, subsequent improvements or dilapidations, and the following correction process not being entirely reliable... you're basically just pick and mixing data to suit your argument, and anyone can make any argument they like with ever more sophisticated statistical analysis of correction factors and other b
ks.Which is why the 1988 value seems to me to pretty much solve it all for my needs.
Also aiui I can appeal, but I need to get it done in the coming three to four weeks because my 6 months runs out on that route of appealing the banding.
I have been through similar although for a different reason. I didn't challenge my Band, the VOA decided to increase it from E to F one day. I challenged it and eventually won as they didn't follow the legislation in the first regard but when they realised this they simply shifted their approach and claimed the band had always been wrong which I had to fight against.
I documented it in the following thread:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The long and short of it is there are three approaches. One is a highly likely to be successful, the second stands a chance but can backfire on others and the third is...well difficult:
1. Empirical sale data from 1991 for your property showing it was mis banded.
2. Similar properties that you do have sales data for from 1991
3. The 'Tone' of the list - the further away from 1991 sales data goes you have to rely on (and prove) 'tone'
The third point is hard.....very hard. If you end up at tribunal like I did then the panel does not place much consideration on values that are generated by the likes of the Nationwide tool projecting house prices back to 1991.
The VOA will default to point 2 in their defence. With this you need to understand their rules and the rules of valuation. Simply you need to compare like for like so detached to detached, semi to semi, house to house, bungalow to bungalow etc.
Bungalow to house is not comparable unless the bungalow does have a second floor that accounts for over 50% of the ground floor then it is considered similar to a house.
If a property has an improvement indicator currently against it (look up on the gov.uk council tax band search tool) then its band won't be considered valid for comparison as the property has been improved/extended and needs to be reviewed.
There is so much to consider. My case took I think it was 2 years start to finish.
A good resource is the VTS Tribunal search. Here you can download and read the outcomes of thousands of tribunals. You can get a good idea of what works and doesn't work as evidence and what the generic arguments used by the VOA are.
https://appealsearch.valuationtribunal.gov.uk/Home...
There are two very pertinent pieces of case law that the VOA will use in their defence:
Domblides v Listing Officer 2008 - this serves to limit the use of indexing data as a sole method to accurately value property for the purposes of council tax banding
Ladies Hosiery & Underwear Ltd vs Middlesex Assessment Committee (1932) - Fundamentally this covers correctness should not be sacrificed to ensure uniformity . i.e. this house is a lower band therefore my house should be a lower band.
Good luck if you choose to pursue this.....
Edit 1: Oh and don't tie yourself down to 1991 (Apr) for sales data. Take a look around 1997 as it is widely held (and used by both the VOA and the VTS) that house prices were falling through the first half of the 90's and regained parity to 1991 around mid 1997 so sales data around this timeframe is good evidence....
Edit 2: If you live in a town or city or an estate where all the houses are fundamentally the same then the comparable comparison becomes much easier. If you live in a village or out in the sticks where every property is fundamentally unique in its own right then its much harder but equally can play to your advantage.
I documented it in the following thread:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The long and short of it is there are three approaches. One is a highly likely to be successful, the second stands a chance but can backfire on others and the third is...well difficult:
1. Empirical sale data from 1991 for your property showing it was mis banded.
2. Similar properties that you do have sales data for from 1991
3. The 'Tone' of the list - the further away from 1991 sales data goes you have to rely on (and prove) 'tone'
The third point is hard.....very hard. If you end up at tribunal like I did then the panel does not place much consideration on values that are generated by the likes of the Nationwide tool projecting house prices back to 1991.
The VOA will default to point 2 in their defence. With this you need to understand their rules and the rules of valuation. Simply you need to compare like for like so detached to detached, semi to semi, house to house, bungalow to bungalow etc.
Bungalow to house is not comparable unless the bungalow does have a second floor that accounts for over 50% of the ground floor then it is considered similar to a house.
If a property has an improvement indicator currently against it (look up on the gov.uk council tax band search tool) then its band won't be considered valid for comparison as the property has been improved/extended and needs to be reviewed.
There is so much to consider. My case took I think it was 2 years start to finish.
A good resource is the VTS Tribunal search. Here you can download and read the outcomes of thousands of tribunals. You can get a good idea of what works and doesn't work as evidence and what the generic arguments used by the VOA are.
https://appealsearch.valuationtribunal.gov.uk/Home...
There are two very pertinent pieces of case law that the VOA will use in their defence:
Domblides v Listing Officer 2008 - this serves to limit the use of indexing data as a sole method to accurately value property for the purposes of council tax banding
Ladies Hosiery & Underwear Ltd vs Middlesex Assessment Committee (1932) - Fundamentally this covers correctness should not be sacrificed to ensure uniformity . i.e. this house is a lower band therefore my house should be a lower band.
Good luck if you choose to pursue this.....
Edit 1: Oh and don't tie yourself down to 1991 (Apr) for sales data. Take a look around 1997 as it is widely held (and used by both the VOA and the VTS) that house prices were falling through the first half of the 90's and regained parity to 1991 around mid 1997 so sales data around this timeframe is good evidence....
Edit 2: If you live in a town or city or an estate where all the houses are fundamentally the same then the comparable comparison becomes much easier. If you live in a village or out in the sticks where every property is fundamentally unique in its own right then its much harder but equally can play to your advantage.
Edited by K is King on Monday 3rd November 14:23
Edited by K is King on Monday 3rd November 14:32
TLDR but I would take the value in 1987, find a graph of house price increases in your area, from that calculate what it would have been in 1991 and present that as your evidence. Four years' extrapolation won't be too far out.
I disputed my council tax band as soon as it was introduced; the council wanted to take it to a tribunal, so I said fine let's go, and they gave in without one.
I disputed my council tax band as soon as it was introduced; the council wanted to take it to a tribunal, so I said fine let's go, and they gave in without one.
Ah that's all very useful information, especially the 97 price points, funnily I was active in that thread of yours a bit.
So do you think the 88 transaction value is too far out for a corrected valuation? I think I saw something saying within 2 years of April 91 was acceptable, so in theory I'm out by a year as it'd need to be April 1st 89 to April 1st 93.
Ie, is it valuable or not to go looking for that information?
Or should I simply find properties that are both currently a band F, and transacted at 'corrected' band F prices (which are pretty much the same) in 97, and their values land me in a band F, and they'll be acceptable as evidence?
In the end I'm still within my 6 months for a few more weeks, so no harm in doing the best job I can now, throw in sensible data, and then I have the chance to appeal later any way.
My neighbour appeared to do this and go from a G to an F, though I have this feeling my neighbour's landlord bought the property in 98 which might have given him a strong data point.
Thinking on that point.
If my neighbour went through the VOA in recent years he must have a square meter value attached.
As our two bungalows were built at the same time, are essentially identical but with some of the runs just cut short, it seems a comparison on m.2 value should settle this pretty cleanly.
There can't be much ambiguity on any other basis as they're otherwise the same builds, materials, haven't been modified with extensions etc, and stand today as they did in 78 and 91.
I think he also mentioned he might try for an E, but in the end settled for an F, so possibly he was at the lower end of the F band.
--- edit:
Ah, just noticed the VOA tribunal site only has appeals information? Or tribunal appeals?
I can't seem to see anything for my neighbours property on there, so might it be the case that they just accepted his evidence?
How do I find this mystical m.2 value which seems comparable and relevant in my case?
So do you think the 88 transaction value is too far out for a corrected valuation? I think I saw something saying within 2 years of April 91 was acceptable, so in theory I'm out by a year as it'd need to be April 1st 89 to April 1st 93.
Ie, is it valuable or not to go looking for that information?
Or should I simply find properties that are both currently a band F, and transacted at 'corrected' band F prices (which are pretty much the same) in 97, and their values land me in a band F, and they'll be acceptable as evidence?
In the end I'm still within my 6 months for a few more weeks, so no harm in doing the best job I can now, throw in sensible data, and then I have the chance to appeal later any way.
My neighbour appeared to do this and go from a G to an F, though I have this feeling my neighbour's landlord bought the property in 98 which might have given him a strong data point.
Thinking on that point.
If my neighbour went through the VOA in recent years he must have a square meter value attached.
As our two bungalows were built at the same time, are essentially identical but with some of the runs just cut short, it seems a comparison on m.2 value should settle this pretty cleanly.
There can't be much ambiguity on any other basis as they're otherwise the same builds, materials, haven't been modified with extensions etc, and stand today as they did in 78 and 91.
I think he also mentioned he might try for an E, but in the end settled for an F, so possibly he was at the lower end of the F band.
--- edit:
Ah, just noticed the VOA tribunal site only has appeals information? Or tribunal appeals?
I can't seem to see anything for my neighbours property on there, so might it be the case that they just accepted his evidence?
How do I find this mystical m.2 value which seems comparable and relevant in my case?
Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 3rd November 15:16
Based on what you've put your strongest evidence sounds to be the neighbours from both the transaction date, value, size and the fact it is almost identical. the closer to 1991 the better but it doesn't have to be exactly in 1991. The further away you are the less 'weight' it is given. Keep in mind though how close to the upper band limit the available value is. If its close it gives the VOA more arguments to push you into a higher band.
However one thing I found in my research through reading tribunal minutes and through my own experience is that one VOA officers opinion and view is not always the same as another officers and any agreements / reductions can be overturned by another at a later date.
One thing to bear in mind though is that by using your neighbour as the example is that a new review of yours calling in theirs as evidence could result in them being put back up again if the officer this time round thinks it was reduced in error.....thats the gamble.
The VTS Tribunal search only gives you minutes for appeals heard at Tribunal. Your neighbours might have just been agreed by the VOA officer at the time.
For the m2 value, the VOE simply use the external dimensions of the property with some areas excluded. e.g. Garages (attached and detached), head height under 1.5m, Porches below 2m2 I think it is and a few other things. The basic measurement is external wall to wall of all habitable space.
However one thing I found in my research through reading tribunal minutes and through my own experience is that one VOA officers opinion and view is not always the same as another officers and any agreements / reductions can be overturned by another at a later date.
One thing to bear in mind though is that by using your neighbour as the example is that a new review of yours calling in theirs as evidence could result in them being put back up again if the officer this time round thinks it was reduced in error.....thats the gamble.
The VTS Tribunal search only gives you minutes for appeals heard at Tribunal. Your neighbours might have just been agreed by the VOA officer at the time.
For the m2 value, the VOE simply use the external dimensions of the property with some areas excluded. e.g. Garages (attached and detached), head height under 1.5m, Porches below 2m2 I think it is and a few other things. The basic measurement is external wall to wall of all habitable space.
Edited by K is King on Monday 3rd November 15:40
Edited by K is King on Monday 3rd November 15:42
Roger that.
I don't think there is any risk of me worsening my position as I'm bottom of a G at best. The H band is £320,000+, I've not seen a H anywhere nearby at this point.
So I'm happy to try get to an F on that basis as there is little to lose.
Interestingly I went to the HM LR website and did a HG3 search in the 96/97/98 period for detached properties... there aren't that many around me in Nidderdale, less so bungalows.
I've decided to run from £80,000 at bottom of band E through to the top of band F at £160,000.
It's eye-opening, there are some real stand-out Gs that should be Fs or even Es.
Worse still when you see some people in Ds and Es that 'value up' today to be a G... if a revaluation comes they're going to be crying into their cornflakes!
Possibly invoked by me using them as an example
I don't think there is any risk of me worsening my position as I'm bottom of a G at best. The H band is £320,000+, I've not seen a H anywhere nearby at this point.
So I'm happy to try get to an F on that basis as there is little to lose.
Interestingly I went to the HM LR website and did a HG3 search in the 96/97/98 period for detached properties... there aren't that many around me in Nidderdale, less so bungalows.
I've decided to run from £80,000 at bottom of band E through to the top of band F at £160,000.
It's eye-opening, there are some real stand-out Gs that should be Fs or even Es.
Worse still when you see some people in Ds and Es that 'value up' today to be a G... if a revaluation comes they're going to be crying into their cornflakes!
Possibly invoked by me using them as an example
Personally I’d rather go with a no win no fee operator who’d take the first year or two savings
I’ll see what data I can dig out.
It does all feel annoying and like a bad joke.
It’s not so much a system as a highly organised arbitrary protection racket whereby they defend arbitrary numbers.
Your point about correctness being more important than uniformity sims it up.
Correctness even today is impossible to determine without reference to a red book QS valuation.
If that’s the case, a QS dated back to 91 should do the trick… but no doubt that’s not allowed because ‘reasons’ even though it’d be sufficient for all manner of HMRC needs around probate, IHT, CGT etc.
I’ll see what data I can dig out.
It does all feel annoying and like a bad joke.
It’s not so much a system as a highly organised arbitrary protection racket whereby they defend arbitrary numbers.
Your point about correctness being more important than uniformity sims it up.
Correctness even today is impossible to determine without reference to a red book QS valuation.
If that’s the case, a QS dated back to 91 should do the trick… but no doubt that’s not allowed because ‘reasons’ even though it’d be sufficient for all manner of HMRC needs around probate, IHT, CGT etc.
Well I just got my formal challenge in before my time ran out in a few days.
I found a bunch of similar bungalows in the local area and a bit further afield which all stack up to F even with corrected values from recent transactions.
Hopefully all good, but if not I can keep working to dig out that 1987 transaction because even with 15% over-estimate error on the corrected 1991 value it's still an F.
I'll post back with my experience. It seems some people get hell over this, while others get an easy time.
Thanks to those who have helped so far, it's definitely made this task easier!
I found a bunch of similar bungalows in the local area and a bit further afield which all stack up to F even with corrected values from recent transactions.
Hopefully all good, but if not I can keep working to dig out that 1987 transaction because even with 15% over-estimate error on the corrected 1991 value it's still an F.
I'll post back with my experience. It seems some people get hell over this, while others get an easy time.
Thanks to those who have helped so far, it's definitely made this task easier!
Good luck with your challenge!
Hopefully the VOA see sense in your case. My experience of the VOA was mixed. The bad being it took a 14 month fight for them to simply roll over at tribunal. The VTS panel didn't even have to make a judgement. The VOA just agreed with me in the end. Why they couldn't have agreed in the first place was beyond me.
I think their default strategy is simply to say no unless like you say the challenger has clear sales data on or very close to April 1991 which is irrefutable.
Even if they say no at this stage you can still appeal to tribunal.
Hopefully the VOA see sense in your case. My experience of the VOA was mixed. The bad being it took a 14 month fight for them to simply roll over at tribunal. The VTS panel didn't even have to make a judgement. The VOA just agreed with me in the end. Why they couldn't have agreed in the first place was beyond me.
I think their default strategy is simply to say no unless like you say the challenger has clear sales data on or very close to April 1991 which is irrefutable.
Even if they say no at this stage you can still appeal to tribunal.
Yeah that's it, I thought it'll let it get close then they can't respond before the 6 months, and then I can appeal whenever they get back to me. It might buy me quite some more time.
To be honest though after all this process and looking at literally every property that's a bungalow in about 15 miles of me that's sold since 1995, calculating floor areas, doing the price conversions etc... it really is a case of torturing the data to prove anything you want.
I get this feeling they'll all be revalued soon any way, what with Labour wanting to increase tax revenue from the larger/more valuable properties.
To be honest though after all this process and looking at literally every property that's a bungalow in about 15 miles of me that's sold since 1995, calculating floor areas, doing the price conversions etc... it really is a case of torturing the data to prove anything you want.
I get this feeling they'll all be revalued soon any way, what with Labour wanting to increase tax revenue from the larger/more valuable properties.
I successfully challenged the band on my bungalow. It was Band F and we paid £482k. Being in a little hamlet with almost no recent sales of any kind, yet alone something in the price range, I went slightly further afield and gave at least six examples of houses selling for £499k or thereabouts, during the previous year, all of which were Band E.
My appeal was accepted, so a nice little bonus, and of course a selling point if we ever move again.
My appeal was accepted, so a nice little bonus, and of course a selling point if we ever move again.
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