Any residential surveyors in the house...
Discussion
We are currently selling... and had a Level 3 survey carried out.
It has raised some 'issues', such as the usual 'the roof will need replacing in the future' and 'we suggest a drain survey' (already done...) but alarmingly there is a 'risk of serious injury or death' noted against gas and electric. (we have been provided the summary sheet of the survey)
The property was extended by us in the last 5 years and electrical certificates provided for both the new work and also the old 1850's original part (we had to put a new earth rod in, smoke/CO2 detectors as we had opened up between old and new, etc.) all done by an electrician I have know for over 20 years and isn't the kind of person to cut corners. Equally, a gas/boiler inspection carried out last year and certificate issued.
So, the question...
Is there any duty upon a surveyor to inform the third party (i.e. us) where there is considered to be a danger of 'serious injury or death' to the occupants?
I appreciate that we did not commission the survey and have no contractual relationship, but (having been in construction for 30+ years) if I was to find/see anything on a site that could cause such a risk then I have to report it.
It has raised some 'issues', such as the usual 'the roof will need replacing in the future' and 'we suggest a drain survey' (already done...) but alarmingly there is a 'risk of serious injury or death' noted against gas and electric. (we have been provided the summary sheet of the survey)
The property was extended by us in the last 5 years and electrical certificates provided for both the new work and also the old 1850's original part (we had to put a new earth rod in, smoke/CO2 detectors as we had opened up between old and new, etc.) all done by an electrician I have know for over 20 years and isn't the kind of person to cut corners. Equally, a gas/boiler inspection carried out last year and certificate issued.
So, the question...
Is there any duty upon a surveyor to inform the third party (i.e. us) where there is considered to be a danger of 'serious injury or death' to the occupants?
I appreciate that we did not commission the survey and have no contractual relationship, but (having been in construction for 30+ years) if I was to find/see anything on a site that could cause such a risk then I have to report it.
Has he put it down as a number '3'? https://www.rics.org/content/dam/ricsglobal/docume...
(Technically, any gas or electric in the house is a risk but installed and maintained correctly the risk is minimal.)
(Technically, any gas or electric in the house is a risk but installed and maintained correctly the risk is minimal.)
RPSA and not RICS... but probably not too far apart on their reporting.
The summary has ratings 1 (green), 2 (amber) & 3 (red) and also a red 'HS', I have managed to find an RPSA survey online and for 'HS' it says;
'These are actual, or potential, health and safety related matters that require your immediate attention. Failure to attend to these could result in serious injury or death. In many cases it will require specific testing of services such as electricity or gas to confirm that they are safe to use, but in other instances it may relate to actual, or perceived, risks of falls or other hazards'
(their bold is actually red as well)
I appreciate that there is an awful lot of ar*se covering in surveys, but if you haven't carried out 'specific testing' and don't know, then don't suggest that there is a risk of death where you cannot categorically state that there is. Even more annoying when the surveyor was provided with copies of all certs.
Back to the question... if you have seen something that warrants an 'HS' rating is there an obligation confirm the same the house owner and tell them what it is?
The summary has ratings 1 (green), 2 (amber) & 3 (red) and also a red 'HS', I have managed to find an RPSA survey online and for 'HS' it says;
'These are actual, or potential, health and safety related matters that require your immediate attention. Failure to attend to these could result in serious injury or death. In many cases it will require specific testing of services such as electricity or gas to confirm that they are safe to use, but in other instances it may relate to actual, or perceived, risks of falls or other hazards'
(their bold is actually red as well)
I appreciate that there is an awful lot of ar*se covering in surveys, but if you haven't carried out 'specific testing' and don't know, then don't suggest that there is a risk of death where you cannot categorically state that there is. Even more annoying when the surveyor was provided with copies of all certs.
Back to the question... if you have seen something that warrants an 'HS' rating is there an obligation confirm the same the house owner and tell them what it is?
I assume that some potential buyers commissioned the Survey and have shared their Surveyor's report with you.
from my experience of Surveyors reports they
1. are heavily caveated
2. state that they are only intended for use by the Buyer and no assurances are given to anybody else (or words to that effect)
That being the case - the answer to your question is "no". The Surveyor doesn't owe you any duty of care.
from my experience of Surveyors reports they
1. are heavily caveated
2. state that they are only intended for use by the Buyer and no assurances are given to anybody else (or words to that effect)
That being the case - the answer to your question is "no". The Surveyor doesn't owe you any duty of care.
Cheers for the comments.
So, surveyors can write whatever they want, with no back up to those assertions (to a third party) even when they have been provided with information (by the third party) contradicting the statement, before it was written...
...to the point where, in their opinion, they feel that there is a risk to serious injury or death but have no responsibility to point this out to the party that could be 'killed by death'...
In this instance I get the feeling that the surveyor and purchaser might be known to each other and are using it as an attempt to beat the price down, given the combination of the other comments that we have also been provided with.
So, surveyors can write whatever they want, with no back up to those assertions (to a third party) even when they have been provided with information (by the third party) contradicting the statement, before it was written...
...to the point where, in their opinion, they feel that there is a risk to serious injury or death but have no responsibility to point this out to the party that could be 'killed by death'...
In this instance I get the feeling that the surveyor and purchaser might be known to each other and are using it as an attempt to beat the price down, given the combination of the other comments that we have also been provided with.
I feel you're getting over excited here. What they wrote is true, failure to maintain absolutely COULD result in death. This is for the buyer to be informed about, not you to address. The simple response if the buyer is panicking about the wording is "both have been properly maintained during my ownership" and provide evidence of boiler services and electrical testing certificates for alterations.
The house I purchased 3 years ago had a risk of death or injury as they hadn’t had the boiler serviced for a number of years.
I paid for a boiler service and all was well, nobody died.
The surveyor did miss a number of actual problems with the house including a slipped roof tile which cased water to run down the cavity and seep through the wall when it rained.
I’d just take surveys with a pinch of salt and a second set of eyes.
I paid for a boiler service and all was well, nobody died.
The surveyor did miss a number of actual problems with the house including a slipped roof tile which cased water to run down the cavity and seep through the wall when it rained.
I’d just take surveys with a pinch of salt and a second set of eyes.
I don't disagree with the last two posts had they written 'failure to maintain these could result in', but that is completely different to 'scaremongering', which is all they seem to have achieved.
They were provided with electric certs (for the new and old parts) and gas safety/boiler check certification... but they still wrote; 'Failure to attend to these could result in serious injury or death', which is worded to suggest that they have seen something on the survey and that it needs immediate attention. But wont state what it is.
There are several other elements, e.g. the 'water tank is undersized for the property', had they asked I could have told them that the 150ltr tank only feeds the new ensuite and kitchen tap... heated by immersion/solar/Harvi.
It is what it is, but it is annoying when ar*e covering becomes a scare tactic.
They were provided with electric certs (for the new and old parts) and gas safety/boiler check certification... but they still wrote; 'Failure to attend to these could result in serious injury or death', which is worded to suggest that they have seen something on the survey and that it needs immediate attention. But wont state what it is.
There are several other elements, e.g. the 'water tank is undersized for the property', had they asked I could have told them that the 150ltr tank only feeds the new ensuite and kitchen tap... heated by immersion/solar/Harvi.
It is what it is, but it is annoying when ar*e covering becomes a scare tactic.
As someone who commissioned a level 2 recently on a property, I totally empathise with you. The wording is enormously cautious. For example, we got a red mark and a serious warning on our report with the "Urgent, must fix" message. They were getting all up tight because there was no Carbon monoxide sensor near the boiler. To read the report you'd think it a miracle the vendors were still alive.
Countdown said:
I assume that some potential buyers commissioned the Survey and have shared their Surveyor's report with you.
from my experience of Surveyors reports they
1. are heavily caveated
2. state that they are only intended for use by the Buyer and no assurances are given to anybody else (or words to that effect)
That being the case - the answer to your question is "no". The Surveyor doesn't owe you any duty of care.
The surveyor/engineer still has a professinal responsibility to highlight dangers to the owner. (Why the example of walking past a building site is usually given - don't look, just in case.) For example, if they smell and hear a gas leak they must take action by contacting the owners/occupants/gas board.from my experience of Surveyors reports they
1. are heavily caveated
2. state that they are only intended for use by the Buyer and no assurances are given to anybody else (or words to that effect)
That being the case - the answer to your question is "no". The Surveyor doesn't owe you any duty of care.
Vsix and Vtec said:
As someone who commissioned a level 2 recently on a property, I totally empathise with you. The wording is enormously cautious. For example, we got a red mark and a serious warning on our report with the "Urgent, must fix" message. They were getting all up tight because there was no Carbon monoxide sensor near the boiler. To read the report you'd think it a miracle the vendors were still alive.
Seems right to call out this obvious safety gapandya7 said:
I don't disagree with the last two posts had they written 'failure to maintain these could result in', but that is completely different to 'scaremongering', which is all they seem to have achieved.
They were provided with electric certs (for the new and old parts) and gas safety/boiler check certification... but they still wrote; 'Failure to attend to these could result in serious injury or death', which is worded to suggest that they have seen something on the survey and that it needs immediate attention. But wont state what it is.
There are several other elements, e.g. the 'water tank is undersized for the property', had they asked I could have told them that the 150ltr tank only feeds the new ensuite and kitchen tap... heated by immersion/solar/Harvi.
It is what it is, but it is annoying when ar*e covering becomes a scare tactic.
If they are saying it's dangerous, when you have evidence it's not, is that not libel?They were provided with electric certs (for the new and old parts) and gas safety/boiler check certification... but they still wrote; 'Failure to attend to these could result in serious injury or death', which is worded to suggest that they have seen something on the survey and that it needs immediate attention. But wont state what it is.
There are several other elements, e.g. the 'water tank is undersized for the property', had they asked I could have told them that the 150ltr tank only feeds the new ensuite and kitchen tap... heated by immersion/solar/Harvi.
It is what it is, but it is annoying when ar*e covering becomes a scare tactic.
andya7 said:
We are currently selling... and had a Level 3 survey carried out.
It has raised some 'issues', such as the usual 'the roof will need replacing in the future' and 'we suggest a drain survey' (already done...) but alarmingly there is a 'risk of serious injury or death' noted against gas and electric. (we have been provided the summary sheet of the survey)
The property was extended by us in the last 5 years and electrical certificates provided for both the new work and also the old 1850's original part (we had to put a new earth rod in, smoke/CO2 detectors as we had opened up between old and new, etc.) all done by an electrician I have know for over 20 years and isn't the kind of person to cut corners. Equally, a gas/boiler inspection carried out last year and certificate issued.
So, the question...
Is there any duty upon a surveyor to inform the third party (i.e. us) where there is considered to be a danger of 'serious injury or death' to the occupants?
I appreciate that we did not commission the survey and have no contractual relationship, but (having been in construction for 30+ years) if I was to find/see anything on a site that could cause such a risk then I have to report it.
A surveyor’s report is normally own shown to the buyer so I guess the estate agent has sent you a copy?It has raised some 'issues', such as the usual 'the roof will need replacing in the future' and 'we suggest a drain survey' (already done...) but alarmingly there is a 'risk of serious injury or death' noted against gas and electric. (we have been provided the summary sheet of the survey)
The property was extended by us in the last 5 years and electrical certificates provided for both the new work and also the old 1850's original part (we had to put a new earth rod in, smoke/CO2 detectors as we had opened up between old and new, etc.) all done by an electrician I have know for over 20 years and isn't the kind of person to cut corners. Equally, a gas/boiler inspection carried out last year and certificate issued.
So, the question...
Is there any duty upon a surveyor to inform the third party (i.e. us) where there is considered to be a danger of 'serious injury or death' to the occupants?
I appreciate that we did not commission the survey and have no contractual relationship, but (having been in construction for 30+ years) if I was to find/see anything on a site that could cause such a risk then I have to report it.
I would invest a few hundred pounds in an EICR electrical report and a gas safety certificate, both of which can be organised fairly quickly.
Firstly, for your own peace of mind, and secondly the moment the buyer suggests a renegotiation you can show them your own reports and nip it in the bud.
Again, thanks for the comments.
Jeremy-75qq8 & Hans_Gruber
They have already been provided with;
EICR18-3C - condition report
EIC18-3C - installation certificate
Maintenance Cert - from a Gas Safe registered contractor (basically boiler service as it is the only thing that uses gas)
The purchaser provided a copy of the summary sheet to the agent, hence how we have a copy. There are a couple of items that I agree are relevant, however I would consider/suggest that they are items of maintenance and we are happy to discuss.
The rest appears to be complete b*llocks and basically made up, to the point where the purchaser is too scared to continue (or now has an excuse to withdraw).
The agents is asking for clarification/confirmation of the items marked as 'failure to attend to these could result in serious injury or death'.
Will see what the response is...
Jeremy-75qq8 & Hans_Gruber
They have already been provided with;
EICR18-3C - condition report
EIC18-3C - installation certificate
Maintenance Cert - from a Gas Safe registered contractor (basically boiler service as it is the only thing that uses gas)
The purchaser provided a copy of the summary sheet to the agent, hence how we have a copy. There are a couple of items that I agree are relevant, however I would consider/suggest that they are items of maintenance and we are happy to discuss.
The rest appears to be complete b*llocks and basically made up, to the point where the purchaser is too scared to continue (or now has an excuse to withdraw).
The agents is asking for clarification/confirmation of the items marked as 'failure to attend to these could result in serious injury or death'.
Will see what the response is...
Ok good luck. If your agent is any good they will explain that a surveyor is not a gas safe plumber or an electrician and it’s quite normal for them to caveat anything that may - potentially- be dangerous in this way.
I’ve worked with surveyors for 38 years. A level 3 survey is a waste of money. Nothing is put in context (a major problem may only be a few hundred to fix but the surveyor will not provide a quote). They cannot lift flooring or even move furniture so everything is purely visual.
Some surveyors are good, but most a jack or all trades and masters of none.
I’ve worked with surveyors for 38 years. A level 3 survey is a waste of money. Nothing is put in context (a major problem may only be a few hundred to fix but the surveyor will not provide a quote). They cannot lift flooring or even move furniture so everything is purely visual.
Some surveyors are good, but most a jack or all trades and masters of none.
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