Broken boiler, temporary or permanent solution?
Discussion
A little advice on what to do here please.
Current set up:
Potterton Suprima 80 gas boiler installed in ~2001 feeding 3 large, 7 medium and 2 small radiators, plus a c100l hot water tank. Vented system with a small header tank in the loft. Of the radiators only about half (2 large, 4 medium, 1 small) are generally used over winter. House is c1,800 sqft (300ft has no radiators at all).
Future set up:
We were hoping to limp this boiler through for 2 more winters as we’ve recently got permission granted to add ~2,500 sqft to what we have and I need the 2 years to save the £££ for the work. When complete I was hoping to move to a system boiler set-up with 300l pressurised HW tank so that we could have decent hot water pressure - gas as seems to make the most sense for our use (hour morning, 3 hours evening, winters only). We currently have an electric shower in the man bathroom as the current system is not up to task. When complete we’ll have ~1,200ft of UFH, the 300l HW tank, and somewhere around 18 rad’s of various sizes. (5/6 bed with 4 bathrooms)
The issue:
The boiler had not been serviced in the 5 years we’ve lived in our house, we’ve been through a big refurbishment in the first years to get it habitable (from 1960’s granny chic - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Over the winter the boiler had been playing up a little, normally cured by a reset/off and on or fiddle with the pump. With a toddler in the house 4 days/wk and another baby on the way I thought it best to get it cleaned out/serviced. However, the engineer has come around and condemned it – a split turret seal apparently.
Ideal scenario:
I have opened the boiler up to look at it myself (I plumbed/wired the house for the refurb) and while decommissioning it he’s also taken the thermal sensor away. Looking inside I can’t see a split seal beyond the seating seal (which comes as a strip so may looks split in situ). This part is NLA and he has said the turret seal he needs is also NLA from his supplier. Ideally, we’d find a “turret seal” and have it fitted but am struggling – he will only fit a Baxi branded part, in Baxi packaging – if anybody know where one could be found please shout as that’s the simple option/cheap option/what I’d prefer!
Second option:
What has been suggested by the engineer is a near-lfl replacement with a cheap boiler, to last 2 years and be thrown out thereafter. This will fix the problem but seems rather wasteful and will cost c£2.5k apparently.
Third option:
What I’m also considering is to convert to a system set up now, install the new tank in the current tank’s place and then be able to relocate both the boiler (will move to the rear of the garage/utility post extension) and tank (will move up a floor, near-enough same place - it could also stay where is if push came to shove) when the work is done. Unsure about costs but the ~40KW boiler I think we’d need is ~£4k installed and the tank is ~£1,500. The big question is then one of the cost to convert to a system from what we have now and the risks of pressurisation to the current loops – heating is a mix of 22/15mm copper and 15mm plastic, HW is the same copper, plastic in parts but also a little bit of steel pipe which I couldn't get out a few years back. Would this handle the pressurisation? - would rather not rip things up right now.
Assuming I can’t find the part for option 1 (or don’t just buy a new thermal sensor and run what we have with a monoxide sensor in place and cupboard window open) which of the replacement options would you go for?
Current set up:
Potterton Suprima 80 gas boiler installed in ~2001 feeding 3 large, 7 medium and 2 small radiators, plus a c100l hot water tank. Vented system with a small header tank in the loft. Of the radiators only about half (2 large, 4 medium, 1 small) are generally used over winter. House is c1,800 sqft (300ft has no radiators at all).
Future set up:
We were hoping to limp this boiler through for 2 more winters as we’ve recently got permission granted to add ~2,500 sqft to what we have and I need the 2 years to save the £££ for the work. When complete I was hoping to move to a system boiler set-up with 300l pressurised HW tank so that we could have decent hot water pressure - gas as seems to make the most sense for our use (hour morning, 3 hours evening, winters only). We currently have an electric shower in the man bathroom as the current system is not up to task. When complete we’ll have ~1,200ft of UFH, the 300l HW tank, and somewhere around 18 rad’s of various sizes. (5/6 bed with 4 bathrooms)
The issue:
The boiler had not been serviced in the 5 years we’ve lived in our house, we’ve been through a big refurbishment in the first years to get it habitable (from 1960’s granny chic - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Over the winter the boiler had been playing up a little, normally cured by a reset/off and on or fiddle with the pump. With a toddler in the house 4 days/wk and another baby on the way I thought it best to get it cleaned out/serviced. However, the engineer has come around and condemned it – a split turret seal apparently.
Ideal scenario:
I have opened the boiler up to look at it myself (I plumbed/wired the house for the refurb) and while decommissioning it he’s also taken the thermal sensor away. Looking inside I can’t see a split seal beyond the seating seal (which comes as a strip so may looks split in situ). This part is NLA and he has said the turret seal he needs is also NLA from his supplier. Ideally, we’d find a “turret seal” and have it fitted but am struggling – he will only fit a Baxi branded part, in Baxi packaging – if anybody know where one could be found please shout as that’s the simple option/cheap option/what I’d prefer!
Second option:
What has been suggested by the engineer is a near-lfl replacement with a cheap boiler, to last 2 years and be thrown out thereafter. This will fix the problem but seems rather wasteful and will cost c£2.5k apparently.
Third option:
What I’m also considering is to convert to a system set up now, install the new tank in the current tank’s place and then be able to relocate both the boiler (will move to the rear of the garage/utility post extension) and tank (will move up a floor, near-enough same place - it could also stay where is if push came to shove) when the work is done. Unsure about costs but the ~40KW boiler I think we’d need is ~£4k installed and the tank is ~£1,500. The big question is then one of the cost to convert to a system from what we have now and the risks of pressurisation to the current loops – heating is a mix of 22/15mm copper and 15mm plastic, HW is the same copper, plastic in parts but also a little bit of steel pipe which I couldn't get out a few years back. Would this handle the pressurisation? - would rather not rip things up right now.
Assuming I can’t find the part for option 1 (or don’t just buy a new thermal sensor and run what we have with a monoxide sensor in place and cupboard window open) which of the replacement options would you go for?
If you're looking at 40kW boilers, find a better architect.
If the boiler was 'playing up', needing resetting etc that was quite likely temperatures sensors out of spec or no longer thermally bonded to what they are supposed to measure. Often a lot of labour to sort out and other parts will be tired, corroded and worn.
I would bin the boiler before wasting any more money on repairs.
Then get a proper thermal calculation for the house, which should hopefully tell you that something under 25kW is adequate, so a new heat -only boiler should be about a grand plus fitting. No doubt some incidental costs so budget on £3k or so? That's how it goes, write it down over the ten year warranty.
In the long run, you might look at ASHP etc.
If the boiler was 'playing up', needing resetting etc that was quite likely temperatures sensors out of spec or no longer thermally bonded to what they are supposed to measure. Often a lot of labour to sort out and other parts will be tired, corroded and worn.
I would bin the boiler before wasting any more money on repairs.
Then get a proper thermal calculation for the house, which should hopefully tell you that something under 25kW is adequate, so a new heat -only boiler should be about a grand plus fitting. No doubt some incidental costs so budget on £3k or so? That's how it goes, write it down over the ten year warranty.
In the long run, you might look at ASHP etc.
Thanks - maybe the current one is past saving then, is 25yrs old after all
The 40kw is not what is needed right now, but seems about right for the calcs I've done for a completed house (5/6 bed, 4 bath, 2 cloak, 4.2k sqft) - would obviously have this checked over prior.
Was more whether we could/should get the larger one now and accept near-term inefficiency so I'm not spending out again in 2yrs and can re-use it, versus getting a smaller one - likely only 20kw or so now - to be ripped out again so soon.
Genuinely think that gas suits our needs better vs ASHP - the ASHP needs to be running 24/7 and we prefer a cold house overnight. Mind you, we would look for solar/batteries at a later date (limited, likely only fit c2k watts total due to house orientation) and could future-proof with electric heating direct to water tank for that.
The 40kw is not what is needed right now, but seems about right for the calcs I've done for a completed house (5/6 bed, 4 bath, 2 cloak, 4.2k sqft) - would obviously have this checked over prior.
Was more whether we could/should get the larger one now and accept near-term inefficiency so I'm not spending out again in 2yrs and can re-use it, versus getting a smaller one - likely only 20kw or so now - to be ripped out again so soon.
Genuinely think that gas suits our needs better vs ASHP - the ASHP needs to be running 24/7 and we prefer a cold house overnight. Mind you, we would look for solar/batteries at a later date (limited, likely only fit c2k watts total due to house orientation) and could future-proof with electric heating direct to water tank for that.
Edited by kiethton on Tuesday 14th April 17:11
A powerful boiler is nice for warming up the whole house at once, quickly.
But do the maths, even 10kWh, 6 hours a day is £150 in a month.
If your house is going to be majority new build to modern standards a large boiler should be overkill.
Dropping even a couple of size might cut the cost a lot and have benefits in terms of the minimum output?
There days for a major rebuild, I'd be looking at ASHP, possibly with gas or oil or some other combustion to call on for the ten coldest days of the year or whatever.
But do the maths, even 10kWh, 6 hours a day is £150 in a month.
If your house is going to be majority new build to modern standards a large boiler should be overkill.
Dropping even a couple of size might cut the cost a lot and have benefits in terms of the minimum output?
There days for a major rebuild, I'd be looking at ASHP, possibly with gas or oil or some other combustion to call on for the ten coldest days of the year or whatever.
Badda said:
2.5k to replace with a cheapo seems crazy. Have you checked on Boxt?
I just had to replace a system boiler and managed to get it for 2.7k from Valiant, i would
Guess this would be more than a cheap combo could be wrong.
Just checked Boxt, cheapest offered (18kw for now) is £2.9k fitted for a vaillant eco fit pureI just had to replace a system boiler and managed to get it for 2.7k from Valiant, i would
Guess this would be more than a cheap combo could be wrong.
kiethton said:
Badda said:
2.5k to replace with a cheapo seems crazy. Have you checked on Boxt?
I just had to replace a system boiler and managed to get it for 2.7k from Valiant, i would
Guess this would be more than a cheap combo could be wrong.
Just checked Boxt, cheapest offered (18kw for now) is £2.9k fitted for a vaillant eco fit pureI just had to replace a system boiler and managed to get it for 2.7k from Valiant, i would
Guess this would be more than a cheap combo could be wrong.
Badda said:
Indeed - that's a combi where I'd need a standard boiler now (cheapest screwfix job is c£1.2k and not sure if it comes with the flue), guess the difference is in the fitting costs given I'm inside the M25kiethton said:
The boiler had not been serviced in the 5 years we ve lived in our house, we ve been through a big refurbishment in the first years to get it habitable (from 1960 s granny chic - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Over the winter the boiler had been playing up a little, normally cured by a reset/off and on or fiddle with the pump. With a toddler in the house 4 days/wk and another baby on the way I thought it best to get it cleaned out/serviced. However, the engineer has come around and condemned it a split turret seal apparently.
Ideal scenario:
I have opened the boiler up to look at it myself (I plumbed/wired the house for the refurb) and while decommissioning it he s also taken the thermal sensor away. Looking inside I can t see a split seal beyond the seating seal (which comes as a strip so may looks split in situ). This part is NLA and he has said the turret seal he needs is also NLA from his supplier. Ideally, we d find a turret seal and have it fitted but am struggling he will only fit a Baxi branded part, in Baxi packaging if anybody know where one could be found please shout as that s the simple option/cheap option/what I d prefer!
It's much easier for an engineer to condemn a boiler he doesn't know how to fix or is otherwise incentivised to condemn so you buy a new one from him.Ideal scenario:
I have opened the boiler up to look at it myself (I plumbed/wired the house for the refurb) and while decommissioning it he s also taken the thermal sensor away. Looking inside I can t see a split seal beyond the seating seal (which comes as a strip so may looks split in situ). This part is NLA and he has said the turret seal he needs is also NLA from his supplier. Ideally, we d find a turret seal and have it fitted but am struggling he will only fit a Baxi branded part, in Baxi packaging if anybody know where one could be found please shout as that s the simple option/cheap option/what I d prefer!
If it was me I'd ask him for the thermal sensor back (why did he take it?) and fix the split, or find someone who can fix it for you. But was that the cause of the 'playing up'? Call me cynical but I think you've been stitched up.
My boiler was condemned 20 years ago because there was some plant growth in the flue. I cleared it out and carried on.
Simpo Two said:
kiethton said:
The boiler had not been serviced in the 5 years we ve lived in our house, we ve been through a big refurbishment in the first years to get it habitable (from 1960 s granny chic - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Over the winter the boiler had been playing up a little, normally cured by a reset/off and on or fiddle with the pump. With a toddler in the house 4 days/wk and another baby on the way I thought it best to get it cleaned out/serviced. However, the engineer has come around and condemned it a split turret seal apparently.
Ideal scenario:
I have opened the boiler up to look at it myself (I plumbed/wired the house for the refurb) and while decommissioning it he s also taken the thermal sensor away. Looking inside I can t see a split seal beyond the seating seal (which comes as a strip so may looks split in situ). This part is NLA and he has said the turret seal he needs is also NLA from his supplier. Ideally, we d find a turret seal and have it fitted but am struggling he will only fit a Baxi branded part, in Baxi packaging if anybody know where one could be found please shout as that s the simple option/cheap option/what I d prefer!
It's much easier for an engineer to condemn a boiler he doesn't know how to fix or is otherwise incentivised to condemn so you buy a new one from him.Ideal scenario:
I have opened the boiler up to look at it myself (I plumbed/wired the house for the refurb) and while decommissioning it he s also taken the thermal sensor away. Looking inside I can t see a split seal beyond the seating seal (which comes as a strip so may looks split in situ). This part is NLA and he has said the turret seal he needs is also NLA from his supplier. Ideally, we d find a turret seal and have it fitted but am struggling he will only fit a Baxi branded part, in Baxi packaging if anybody know where one could be found please shout as that s the simple option/cheap option/what I d prefer!
If it was me I'd ask him for the thermal sensor back (why did he take it?) and fix the split, or find someone who can fix it for you. But was that the cause of the 'playing up'? Call me cynical but I think you've been stitched up.
My boiler was condemned 20 years ago because there was some plant growth in the flue. I cleared it out and carried on.
Going to take another look Saturday and then try to get to a proper merchant to find the possible part.
Simpo Two said:
It's much easier for an engineer to condemn a boiler he doesn't know how to fix or is otherwise incentivised to condemn so you buy a new one from him.
If it was me I'd ask him for the thermal sensor back (why did he take it?) and fix the split, or find someone who can fix it for you. But was that the cause of the 'playing up'? Call me cynical but I think you've been stitched up.
My boiler was condemned 20 years ago because there was some plant growth in the flue. I cleared it out and carried on.
The flip side of that is that it's very annoying when a boiler repair man gives you a £500 bill and the damned thing goes wrong again a few months later.If it was me I'd ask him for the thermal sensor back (why did he take it?) and fix the split, or find someone who can fix it for you. But was that the cause of the 'playing up'? Call me cynical but I think you've been stitched up.
My boiler was condemned 20 years ago because there was some plant growth in the flue. I cleared it out and carried on.
It's important to pick your battles with white goods.
OutInTheShed said:
The flip side of that is that it's very annoying when a boiler repair man gives you a £500 bill and the damned thing goes wrong again a few months later.
It's important to pick your battles with white goods.
Agreed.It's important to pick your battles with white goods.
Its a 25 year old boiler that has been condemned, and also has an underlying intermittent fault. Get rid.
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