"Fleecehold" house purchase dilemma...proceed or walk away?
Discussion
Quick bit of background. My family and I relocated back to the area that I grew up in for a new job in January. As my wife hadn't secured a permanent position in the new area at that time, my parents offered to put us and our two children up with them temporarily until we found our own place/she found a permanent position.
We did find a suitable property back in April and had an offer accepted on it (£15k below asking). It was an older 3 bedroom semi-detached property, nothing fancy but it met our needs and superficially it seemed good. The owner had owned it for a long time but had not lived in it themselves (it had been rented out) and it had been vacant for about 6 months, as they had decided to sell. This was the end of April and unfortunately the surveyor that we wanted to use was booked up until the end of May, so we were not able to get the survey done until then but considered it to be a mere formality. Unfortunately that was not the case. The survey uncovered a rodent infestation in the roof, a damp problem of unknown cause in an internal wall and some structural cracking in the external walls, which could have been an indication of cavity tie failure. Also due to the age of the property, most of the ceilings were Artex style ie probably containing asbestos so these needed to be skimmed. More work than we had budgeted to take on really and even with those points addressed, it still needed some work and updating to make it the house that we would like it to be, so regretfully as we had already paid for the survey and had to pay most of the solicitors fees we made the decision to pull out of the purchase, as unfortunately it's an expensive area and despite the discount, the property wasn't cheap enough to make the investment worthwhile.
Now we're into June and we looked at maybe half a dozen properties in our price range in the local area but to be honest, none of them even lived up to the first property, so we decided to stretch our budget a little and look at something a bit more expensive and modern. A 3 bedroom end of terrace house on a modern development but it was 5 years old, so that part of the development was fairly well established but they were still building more houses beyond the property. Spacious open-plan kitchen/dining room with in-built appliances, 3 decent-sized bedrooms with an ensuite for the master bedroom, a spacious lounge and an extra room downstairs that could be turned into a home office and a reasonable outside garden/patio area backing onto a garage/driveway. Equidistant from both our workplaces and within walking distance of the children's secondary school. Good energy rating and flooring/carpets in good condition too. It seemed kind of perfect after the other properties that we had looked at, we all loved it and put in an offer the next day at asking. The agent had several other viewings on the property booked in for that week and it was an "offers in the excess of" the asking price situation, so the seller countered with £5,000 above asking to take it off the market, which after some thought I reluctantly agreed to, as it still seemed fairly reasonable and I thought that someone else would be prepared to pay that. The one condition that I put on my offer was that we complete by the end of August, as we wanted to be installed before the children went back to school /my wife started her new job on 1st September. £40k more than the other property but we got approved for the extra mortgage and it appeared to be worth the extra money over the longer-term.
So here I am on 28th August and I'm still sat here not having moved into the house or even with a potential exchange/completion date and I'm left wondering whether we should even proceed with the purchase, so what has gone wrong?
1) Managed to book the survey in sooner this time, it uncovered nothing major, result!
2) Seller's solicitor has been very rude, provided vague or no responses to our solicitor's enquiries and the process seems to have ground to a halt.
3) My solicitor ascertained that the gas boiler had not been serviced since 2020, I asked through the agent if they would do this but the seller declined ("we are not in a position to do this"). Would you buy a car that hadn't had an oil change for 6 years?
4) We found out that the development has yet to be adopted by the council so despite being a "freehold" will likely be subject to an annual maintenance/service fee. This was not communicated to us before making our offer. Apparently the seller has not yet paid any fees and a property management company has yet to be set up, so there is no transparency on what those fees will be and whether they are capped. Our solicitor has asked the seller/seller's solicitor to provide indemnity insurance to protect us/future owners from backdated charges to satisfy our lender but they have not responded to this.
5) We have recently discovered that the developer have planning permission for a "link" road from the main North/South road to directly access the new residential area. Currently you access the estate by wiggling through some of the older residential areas which is accessible off the main route into the town centre. Looking at the plans, this "link road" will pass right by our front door, garden and driveway/garage, so what is currently a property on a relatively quiet cul-de-sac with no parking restrictions will be on a busy through road with parking restrictions potentially. Surely this is going to have an adverse affect on the value of the property and restrict it's appeal somewhat? My children are 12 and 14 but if you had younger kids, you probably wouldn't want your house to be on a busy through road, so its future salability is affected? Also worth noting that the through road is likely to be adopted but not the side roads and there is also a 9 acre green area surrounding the development that the public can access but belongs to the development, so the residents will be financially responsible for maintaining.
We are so torn right now, as in so many ways it's our perfect house, in the perfect location and much nicer than anything else that we have seen for the money. The children were really excited to get their own space back and not have to leave home an hour before school starts to catch the bus to school and we had even purchased my son a new double bed, which I have paid for but I keep having to push back the delivery date on, as I have no house to put it in currently. My parents have been strangely unsupportive on this one. They were supportive of us pulling out of the first property but think we should just go ahead with this one and not worry about it. This seems a little hypocritical, as they were thinking of moving to a smaller property themselves but were put off by the service fees on "leasehold" properties but I think they probably just want their own space back at this point (6 people in a 3 bedroom house with 1 bathroom is a bit of a squeeze) and want us out!
We want that too and desperately want an end in sight for our current living arrangements but all our other instincts are telling us to walk away. Another wasted survey/set of solicitors fees (all my income at the moment seems to have gone on paying surveyors/solicitors for no outcome) but perhaps in the long-term it's the better financial decision? I haven't pulled out of this one yet but have arranged to look at some more properties this weekend, probably not as nice as this one but in more established adopted areas that aren't going to be extended/have main roads built through them. So what would you do, I've barely slept for 3 months and am at the end of my tether at the prospect of having to start the process again? I don't feel bad for the sellers really (they have found a new property but it's not in an ongoing chain), they and their solicitor seem like a**holes and whereas I can empathise with their position if they're trying to get out of the property because of the above, I'm not obliged to take on that financial burden. The agent seemed decent but has hardly been transparent either but my heart does break for children, as they were excited for the impending move, are fed up with sharing a room and their grandparents aren't particularly kind to them.
TLDR
1) Had an offer accepted on a modern 3-bedroom end of terrace on a newish development;
2) The house itself is perfect and in the perfect location for school/work;
3) Seller/seller's solicitor is uncooperative and rude and have been dragging out the process by not responding to my solicitor's enquiries;
4) Completion timeframe for the condition of the offer has expired;
4) It has become apparent that the "freehold" property is on an unadopted development so will be subject to undisclosed maintenance/service fees, which we were not told about;
5) It has also become apparent that a major link road is going to be built from the main road directly passed the property, which could adversely affect its future value/appeal (currently on a relatively quiet "cul-de-sac"), which was also not disclosed to us;
If we pull out this will be our 2nd aborted house purchase in the last 3 months (first one was cancelled due to a very adverse survey), so we have wasted a substantial amount of money on surveys/solicitors fees for aborted/potentially aborted purchases;
6) Have been living with family since January, so pressure/desire to find our own place to live sooner rather than later;
7) Not sure whether to proceed with purchase or walk away.
We did find a suitable property back in April and had an offer accepted on it (£15k below asking). It was an older 3 bedroom semi-detached property, nothing fancy but it met our needs and superficially it seemed good. The owner had owned it for a long time but had not lived in it themselves (it had been rented out) and it had been vacant for about 6 months, as they had decided to sell. This was the end of April and unfortunately the surveyor that we wanted to use was booked up until the end of May, so we were not able to get the survey done until then but considered it to be a mere formality. Unfortunately that was not the case. The survey uncovered a rodent infestation in the roof, a damp problem of unknown cause in an internal wall and some structural cracking in the external walls, which could have been an indication of cavity tie failure. Also due to the age of the property, most of the ceilings were Artex style ie probably containing asbestos so these needed to be skimmed. More work than we had budgeted to take on really and even with those points addressed, it still needed some work and updating to make it the house that we would like it to be, so regretfully as we had already paid for the survey and had to pay most of the solicitors fees we made the decision to pull out of the purchase, as unfortunately it's an expensive area and despite the discount, the property wasn't cheap enough to make the investment worthwhile.
Now we're into June and we looked at maybe half a dozen properties in our price range in the local area but to be honest, none of them even lived up to the first property, so we decided to stretch our budget a little and look at something a bit more expensive and modern. A 3 bedroom end of terrace house on a modern development but it was 5 years old, so that part of the development was fairly well established but they were still building more houses beyond the property. Spacious open-plan kitchen/dining room with in-built appliances, 3 decent-sized bedrooms with an ensuite for the master bedroom, a spacious lounge and an extra room downstairs that could be turned into a home office and a reasonable outside garden/patio area backing onto a garage/driveway. Equidistant from both our workplaces and within walking distance of the children's secondary school. Good energy rating and flooring/carpets in good condition too. It seemed kind of perfect after the other properties that we had looked at, we all loved it and put in an offer the next day at asking. The agent had several other viewings on the property booked in for that week and it was an "offers in the excess of" the asking price situation, so the seller countered with £5,000 above asking to take it off the market, which after some thought I reluctantly agreed to, as it still seemed fairly reasonable and I thought that someone else would be prepared to pay that. The one condition that I put on my offer was that we complete by the end of August, as we wanted to be installed before the children went back to school /my wife started her new job on 1st September. £40k more than the other property but we got approved for the extra mortgage and it appeared to be worth the extra money over the longer-term.
So here I am on 28th August and I'm still sat here not having moved into the house or even with a potential exchange/completion date and I'm left wondering whether we should even proceed with the purchase, so what has gone wrong?
1) Managed to book the survey in sooner this time, it uncovered nothing major, result!
2) Seller's solicitor has been very rude, provided vague or no responses to our solicitor's enquiries and the process seems to have ground to a halt.
3) My solicitor ascertained that the gas boiler had not been serviced since 2020, I asked through the agent if they would do this but the seller declined ("we are not in a position to do this"). Would you buy a car that hadn't had an oil change for 6 years?
4) We found out that the development has yet to be adopted by the council so despite being a "freehold" will likely be subject to an annual maintenance/service fee. This was not communicated to us before making our offer. Apparently the seller has not yet paid any fees and a property management company has yet to be set up, so there is no transparency on what those fees will be and whether they are capped. Our solicitor has asked the seller/seller's solicitor to provide indemnity insurance to protect us/future owners from backdated charges to satisfy our lender but they have not responded to this.
5) We have recently discovered that the developer have planning permission for a "link" road from the main North/South road to directly access the new residential area. Currently you access the estate by wiggling through some of the older residential areas which is accessible off the main route into the town centre. Looking at the plans, this "link road" will pass right by our front door, garden and driveway/garage, so what is currently a property on a relatively quiet cul-de-sac with no parking restrictions will be on a busy through road with parking restrictions potentially. Surely this is going to have an adverse affect on the value of the property and restrict it's appeal somewhat? My children are 12 and 14 but if you had younger kids, you probably wouldn't want your house to be on a busy through road, so its future salability is affected? Also worth noting that the through road is likely to be adopted but not the side roads and there is also a 9 acre green area surrounding the development that the public can access but belongs to the development, so the residents will be financially responsible for maintaining.
We are so torn right now, as in so many ways it's our perfect house, in the perfect location and much nicer than anything else that we have seen for the money. The children were really excited to get their own space back and not have to leave home an hour before school starts to catch the bus to school and we had even purchased my son a new double bed, which I have paid for but I keep having to push back the delivery date on, as I have no house to put it in currently. My parents have been strangely unsupportive on this one. They were supportive of us pulling out of the first property but think we should just go ahead with this one and not worry about it. This seems a little hypocritical, as they were thinking of moving to a smaller property themselves but were put off by the service fees on "leasehold" properties but I think they probably just want their own space back at this point (6 people in a 3 bedroom house with 1 bathroom is a bit of a squeeze) and want us out!
We want that too and desperately want an end in sight for our current living arrangements but all our other instincts are telling us to walk away. Another wasted survey/set of solicitors fees (all my income at the moment seems to have gone on paying surveyors/solicitors for no outcome) but perhaps in the long-term it's the better financial decision? I haven't pulled out of this one yet but have arranged to look at some more properties this weekend, probably not as nice as this one but in more established adopted areas that aren't going to be extended/have main roads built through them. So what would you do, I've barely slept for 3 months and am at the end of my tether at the prospect of having to start the process again? I don't feel bad for the sellers really (they have found a new property but it's not in an ongoing chain), they and their solicitor seem like a**holes and whereas I can empathise with their position if they're trying to get out of the property because of the above, I'm not obliged to take on that financial burden. The agent seemed decent but has hardly been transparent either but my heart does break for children, as they were excited for the impending move, are fed up with sharing a room and their grandparents aren't particularly kind to them.
TLDR
1) Had an offer accepted on a modern 3-bedroom end of terrace on a newish development;
2) The house itself is perfect and in the perfect location for school/work;
3) Seller/seller's solicitor is uncooperative and rude and have been dragging out the process by not responding to my solicitor's enquiries;
4) Completion timeframe for the condition of the offer has expired;
4) It has become apparent that the "freehold" property is on an unadopted development so will be subject to undisclosed maintenance/service fees, which we were not told about;
5) It has also become apparent that a major link road is going to be built from the main road directly passed the property, which could adversely affect its future value/appeal (currently on a relatively quiet "cul-de-sac"), which was also not disclosed to us;
If we pull out this will be our 2nd aborted house purchase in the last 3 months (first one was cancelled due to a very adverse survey), so we have wasted a substantial amount of money on surveys/solicitors fees for aborted/potentially aborted purchases;
6) Have been living with family since January, so pressure/desire to find our own place to live sooner rather than later;
7) Not sure whether to proceed with purchase or walk away.
Edited by Starsky80 on Friday 28th August 12:00
Edited by Starsky80 on Friday 28th August 12:03
Every day a journey said:
Don't walk.....RUN
Also, a solicitor being uncooperative? I find that hard to believe.....
I would agree - regardless of the issues with the unadopted road and link road, there is something odd about the delay form their solicitor. Perhaps the sellers doesn’t really want to sell or wants more funds.Also, a solicitor being uncooperative? I find that hard to believe.....
I would, and have done so in the past, send a clear communication that unless contracts have been exchanged with a completion date within a given short term date, then you are pulling out.
And then probably look for some rented accommodation whilst you look for another property.
ExBoringVolvoDriver said:
I would agree - regardless of the issues with the unadopted road and link road, there is something odd about the delay form their solicitor. Perhaps the sellers doesn t really want to sell or wants more funds.
I would, and have done so in the past, send a clear communication that unless contracts have been exchanged with a completion date within a given short term date, then you are pulling out.
And then probably look for some rented accommodation whilst you look for another property.
I get the feeling that they're desperate to get out of there and yet strangely uncooperative like the issue with the boiler service. Good advice. Thanks!I would, and have done so in the past, send a clear communication that unless contracts have been exchanged with a completion date within a given short term date, then you are pulling out.
And then probably look for some rented accommodation whilst you look for another property.
Edited by Starsky80 on Friday 28th August 12:18
As mentioned above, although many people ignore the possibility of renting as some sort of come down. But if you really do want to get out of your situation, it's an option. You still would be in a good position to buy and with the recent changes on tenancy laws, you wouldn't be tied to wherever you rent. Yes, moving twice would be a complete pain. 
swisstoni said:
I wouldn't begrudge the money spent if it means you don't end up lumbered with a property you don't want.
Small price to pay for not having to deal with the grief of that.
i was going to say the same - money spent on a survey that uncovers big issues is not in any way wasted at all.Small price to pay for not having to deal with the grief of that.
simon_harris said:
swisstoni said:
I wouldn't begrudge the money spent if it means you don't end up lumbered with a property you don't want.
Small price to pay for not having to deal with the grief of that.
i was going to say the same - money spent on a survey that uncovers big issues is not in any way wasted at all.Small price to pay for not having to deal with the grief of that.
I have only ever purchased and sold one other property and everything went very smoothly, so my recent experiences of trying to purchase a property have been a bit fraught and overwhelming.
I wouldn't service the boiler for you neither. You want it done then feel free
Tell the sellers their conveyancer needs to answer queries or you're walking.
The fleecehold is an issue. Some are great and carry out works at a reasonable charge. Other fleece you. I would be reading what the deeds of the property say. They can also go back six years. Ask me how I know this
Don't be afraid to walk if you don't like what you find out
Tell the sellers their conveyancer needs to answer queries or you're walking.
The fleecehold is an issue. Some are great and carry out works at a reasonable charge. Other fleece you. I would be reading what the deeds of the property say. They can also go back six years. Ask me how I know this
Don't be afraid to walk if you don't like what you find out
I'm afraid I would be walking away.
You could send the EA an email, outlining your reasons for not proceeding, it might trigger them into some action, but you have to live there for a long time, it's got to be right for you otherwise you will be wasting a lot more money than the cost of a couple of surveys.
You could send the EA an email, outlining your reasons for not proceeding, it might trigger them into some action, but you have to live there for a long time, it's got to be right for you otherwise you will be wasting a lot more money than the cost of a couple of surveys.
There's a number of red flags with the purchase.
The Sellers Solicitors may well have a lot of staff on leave due to the summer holidays which are slowing things down, so you may find that gets better come September when schools reopen but it doesn't help now, if it was that point alone i'd say keep going with it because if you start again now with another house you may be lucky to have moved by Christmas.
The unadopted roads situation would be the biggest issue for me and possible management fees.
Regards the new access road, I can see how it may impact the future property value and is undesirable, but on the other foot I can imagine the people in the existing established estates you drive through to get to this new one aren't happy about the increased traffic either.
The Sellers Solicitors may well have a lot of staff on leave due to the summer holidays which are slowing things down, so you may find that gets better come September when schools reopen but it doesn't help now, if it was that point alone i'd say keep going with it because if you start again now with another house you may be lucky to have moved by Christmas.
The unadopted roads situation would be the biggest issue for me and possible management fees.
Regards the new access road, I can see how it may impact the future property value and is undesirable, but on the other foot I can imagine the people in the existing established estates you drive through to get to this new one aren't happy about the increased traffic either.
The service charge may not be the end of the world. If the residents pull together to form a management company, then it will be less of a fleece hold. This happened in a friend's new build albeit a very small development where the developer didnt set up a management company properly, didnt set up all services to charge fees so was politely asked to f off by the residents who then formed their own.
The planning permission will make me walk away unfortunately.
Re. boiler - when we sold ours I moved from annual servicing to once every two years after the warranty expired because it was a ultra reliable combi in a new build that we owned from new and it still worked perfectly to the day we completed and moved to a new house.
It is not uncommon to be told "no" to boiler service etc. My solicitor recommended I do the same to our buyers for boiler servicing and EICR - if the buyers wanted, they can pay for it themselves after exchange but I flat out refused to do both at my expense.
The planning permission will make me walk away unfortunately.
Re. boiler - when we sold ours I moved from annual servicing to once every two years after the warranty expired because it was a ultra reliable combi in a new build that we owned from new and it still worked perfectly to the day we completed and moved to a new house.
It is not uncommon to be told "no" to boiler service etc. My solicitor recommended I do the same to our buyers for boiler servicing and EICR - if the buyers wanted, they can pay for it themselves after exchange but I flat out refused to do both at my expense.
IMHO
To stick with this property
1) that indemnity around service fees is a must. I'd still worry about future fees though - so would want some assurance that the road is going to be adopted at some point to limit future exposure.
2) I wouldn't worry about the boiler servicing, I would assume that your solicitor is asking for a gas safe certificate anyway ? if there isn't one available I'd make them have it inspected.
3) Given the potential road use change I'd alter your statement of "in the perfect location" to appeared to be in the perfect location. The road change and the fact they failed your August deadline (which means you're incurring extra costs from now onwards) means I'd be looking at a price reduction. Do this through the estate agent (who should care!) and point out the poor behaviour of their solicitor as the primary cause of that. hard to say exactly what price reduction given I don't know the original cost, but it'd be nice to see a good chunk of your 40k back wouldn't it ? I kind of think you're in the better position here with no chain etc so should use it to your advantage.
This is all a tall order and I wouldn't be surprised if this one slips away.
Are there any other similar houses on the same estate that you could consider ? maybe talk to estate agents in the area for properties not currently being marketed ? With no chain you can move quickly.
To stick with this property
1) that indemnity around service fees is a must. I'd still worry about future fees though - so would want some assurance that the road is going to be adopted at some point to limit future exposure.
2) I wouldn't worry about the boiler servicing, I would assume that your solicitor is asking for a gas safe certificate anyway ? if there isn't one available I'd make them have it inspected.
3) Given the potential road use change I'd alter your statement of "in the perfect location" to appeared to be in the perfect location. The road change and the fact they failed your August deadline (which means you're incurring extra costs from now onwards) means I'd be looking at a price reduction. Do this through the estate agent (who should care!) and point out the poor behaviour of their solicitor as the primary cause of that. hard to say exactly what price reduction given I don't know the original cost, but it'd be nice to see a good chunk of your 40k back wouldn't it ? I kind of think you're in the better position here with no chain etc so should use it to your advantage.
This is all a tall order and I wouldn't be surprised if this one slips away.
Are there any other similar houses on the same estate that you could consider ? maybe talk to estate agents in the area for properties not currently being marketed ? With no chain you can move quickly.
It comes down to finding something better.
At some price level, all the downsides of this house are priced in.
You need to understand the local market to know if the 'agreed price' reflects its value in you eyes.
There are probably worse houses for more money in other people's opinions, but it's your view that matters.
In some areas, as a ready buyer with no chain you might be in a strong position to get a good deal.
I'd suggest looking at houses with significantly higher asking price and making some offers.
Autumn and Winter are around the corner, some sellers might prefer a low offer to no offer.
At some price level, all the downsides of this house are priced in.
You need to understand the local market to know if the 'agreed price' reflects its value in you eyes.
There are probably worse houses for more money in other people's opinions, but it's your view that matters.
In some areas, as a ready buyer with no chain you might be in a strong position to get a good deal.
I'd suggest looking at houses with significantly higher asking price and making some offers.
Autumn and Winter are around the corner, some sellers might prefer a low offer to no offer.
3) Seller/seller's solicitor is uncooperative and rude and have been dragging out the process by not responding to my solicitor's enquiries;
I assume this is what your Solicitor says but delays during July and August aren't that surprising especially if the office is small -no excuses for rudeness though.We are coming up to 9 weeks today since our offer was accepted ( on land so less hassle than a house move in theory ) but the sellers solicitor's have probably "wasted " about 3 weeks of that in coming back on various things.
4) Completion timeframe for the condition of the offer has expired;
In itself this isn't necessarily a major issue.
4) It has become apparent that the "freehold" property is on an unadopted development so will be subject to undisclosed maintenance/service fees, which we were not told about;
That is poor and you need some answers as part of your solicitor's enquiries.
5) It has also become apparent that a major link road is going to be built from the main road directly passed the property, which could adversely affect its future value/appeal (currently on a relatively quiet "cul-de-sac"), which was also not disclosed to us;
Probably should have started with this in my reply - I know some people live already next to busy roads but the uncertainty and noise of this being constructed would be a no from me.I would suggest not a could but a would be applicable in terms of future saleability if not value too so unless this is a forever home , you need to think about this very strongly.
If we pull out this will be our 2nd aborted house purchase in the last 3 months (first one was cancelled due to a very adverse survey), so we have wasted a substantial amount of money on surveys/solicitors fees for aborted/potentially aborted purchases;
All part of the game I'm afraid although better and cheaper to pull out now rather than press ahead despite misgivings.
6) Have been living with family since January, so pressure/desire to find our own place to live sooner rather than later;
Totally understandable but don't let that cloud your buying decisions.
7) Not sure whether to proceed with purchase or walk away.
Personally I would walk now rather than continue to get emotionally invested too deeply.
If you think you can cope with the road ( which is the biggest issue by far ) then if the house is perfect in every other way that's your compromise.
Best of luck either way.
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