Dealing with builders
Discussion
We're getting a bit of work done over the summer - new garage, block paved drive, porch.
We've had a quote, plans drawn up , planning permission applied for and got, and he's starting next week.
I'll be doing a "progress" thread with copious pics for anybody interested
But I've never dealt with anything like this before so have no idea what to expect.
We've had a quote, plans drawn up , planning permission applied for and got, and he's starting next week.
I'll be doing a "progress" thread with copious pics for anybody interested
But I've never dealt with anything like this before so have no idea what to expect.
- Will he want money up front for materials? A big wedge, or will he ask as he goes along? Presumably if so it'll all have to be receipted, etc so we know exactly what it's for. I know you need to keep an amount (10%?) back until it's all completed to our satisfaction.
- We haven't signed anything - is this normal? Should there be some sort of contract?
- Although we have plans that give dimensions and some details we still have to decide on things like new front door, garage door, blocks for drive, placement of sockets, etc., etc. Would we decide on this stuff or will we have a choice from his suppliers etc.?
- Guarantees - where do we stand as far as the law goes? What must he provide?
- How long should this sort of work take?
NiceCupOfTea said:
We're getting a bit of work done over the summer - new garage, block paved drive, porch.
We've had a quote, plans drawn up , planning permission applied for and got, and he's starting next week.
I'll be doing a "progress" thread with copious pics for anybody interested
But I've never dealt with anything like this before so have no idea what to expect.
How did you get this builder? What references do you have? We've had a quote, plans drawn up , planning permission applied for and got, and he's starting next week.
I'll be doing a "progress" thread with copious pics for anybody interested
But I've never dealt with anything like this before so have no idea what to expect.
- Will he want money up front for materials? A big wedge, or will he ask as he goes along? Presumably if so it'll all have to be receipted, etc so we know exactly what it's for. I know you need to keep an amount (10%?) back until it's all completed to our satisfaction.
- We haven't signed anything - is this normal? Should there be some sort of contract?
- Although we have plans that give dimensions and some details we still have to decide on things like new front door, garage door, blocks for drive, placement of sockets, etc., etc. Would we decide on this stuff or will we have a choice from his suppliers etc.?
- Guarantees - where do we stand as far as the law goes? What must he provide?
- How long should this sort of work take?
You need a contract, before he starts. Doesn't need to be cumbersome, but this will address many of things you describe. What has he quoted against? Has he quoted a fixed price or time & materials? This type of thing can become another episode of Builders From Hell, unless controlled.
It's normal for people to proceed on the basis of accepting a quote. It doesn't mean it's right though!
I'd be looking at drawing up a simple form of contract. No need for JCT or CIOB.
http://www.bracknell-forest.gov.uk/contract-for-sm...
Will give you an idea of the sort of things to include:-
Standards, timescales, materials,
In addition I'd draw up a simple payment profile. 20% on order, 20% at end of first month, 20% on end of next month, 20% at the end of the job, retain 10% until any immeadiate defects / snagging are resolved, then 10% after 6 months (by which time it should have rained / snowed enough to show up any defects / faults). He might ask for / negotiate to 30%, 30%, 30%, 5%, 5% which is also pretty fair.
HTH
Mike
I'd be looking at drawing up a simple form of contract. No need for JCT or CIOB.
http://www.bracknell-forest.gov.uk/contract-for-sm...
Will give you an idea of the sort of things to include:-
Standards, timescales, materials,
In addition I'd draw up a simple payment profile. 20% on order, 20% at end of first month, 20% on end of next month, 20% at the end of the job, retain 10% until any immeadiate defects / snagging are resolved, then 10% after 6 months (by which time it should have rained / snowed enough to show up any defects / faults). He might ask for / negotiate to 30%, 30%, 30%, 5%, 5% which is also pretty fair.
HTH
Mike
Sorry, should explain.
We do have a written quote in reasonable detail with prices, but it dates from last summer (he doesn't work over the winter and it took us a while to get PP). Don't know if prices will have gone up since. There are extra costs - we are opting for a roller garage door for example - which we are aware will cost more. Difficult to nail an absolute price as I am sure things will crop up during the build.
The guy works from word of mouth - we saw the van about and that he was always there, starting early, finishing late, and spoke to 2 or 3 of his clients who gave glowing reports. OK, he gave us their contact details, but one of them was the guy who we saw him working for which he didn't know about, so pretty sure it wasn't just "some of his mates"
The quote was about right and we have met with him a few times; he was the one we had the best gut feeling about.
We do have a written quote in reasonable detail with prices, but it dates from last summer (he doesn't work over the winter and it took us a while to get PP). Don't know if prices will have gone up since. There are extra costs - we are opting for a roller garage door for example - which we are aware will cost more. Difficult to nail an absolute price as I am sure things will crop up during the build.
The guy works from word of mouth - we saw the van about and that he was always there, starting early, finishing late, and spoke to 2 or 3 of his clients who gave glowing reports. OK, he gave us their contact details, but one of them was the guy who we saw him working for which he didn't know about, so pretty sure it wasn't just "some of his mates"
The quote was about right and we have met with him a few times; he was the one we had the best gut feeling about.
GuinnessMK said:
It's normal for people to proceed on the basis of accepting a quote. It doesn't mean it's right though!
I'd be looking at drawing up a simple form of contract. No need for JCT or CIOB.
http://www.bracknell-forest.gov.uk/contract-for-sm...
Will give you an idea of the sort of things to include:-
Standards, timescales, materials,
In addition I'd draw up a simple payment profile. 20% on order, 20% at end of first month, 20% on end of next month, 20% at the end of the job, retain 10% until any immeadiate defects / snagging are resolved, then 10% after 6 months (by which time it should have rained / snowed enough to show up any defects / faults). He might ask for / negotiate to 30%, 30%, 30%, 5%, 5% which is also pretty fair.
HTH
Mike
Great way to get his back up.I'd be looking at drawing up a simple form of contract. No need for JCT or CIOB.
http://www.bracknell-forest.gov.uk/contract-for-sm...
Will give you an idea of the sort of things to include:-
Standards, timescales, materials,
In addition I'd draw up a simple payment profile. 20% on order, 20% at end of first month, 20% on end of next month, 20% at the end of the job, retain 10% until any immeadiate defects / snagging are resolved, then 10% after 6 months (by which time it should have rained / snowed enough to show up any defects / faults). He might ask for / negotiate to 30%, 30%, 30%, 5%, 5% which is also pretty fair.
HTH
Mike
Just make sure you get a quote and both sign it. Standard practice is: the builder usually works a couple of weeks then asks for a payment on account, an amount that still leaves you in credit(work wise). Keep it like that all through the job so that when he's finished there's one payment on completion, give it a week so you can do a final inspection and pay up in full. DO NOT keep a retension, that practice is for site work and sub contractors.
What about posting some pics prior to work commencing?
GuinnessMK said:
That's fine. I'd still draw up a basic form of contract and payment terms though.
Any changes that you request will be variations. Make sure he gives you a price for each variation before undertaking the work.
Mike
Now that IS a good point. Quite often thats where the client-builder relationship breaks down.Any changes that you request will be variations. Make sure he gives you a price for each variation before undertaking the work.
Mike
I'll put some pics on the thread I'm going to create.
Basically, the garage will sit behind and to the side of the house, with the drive extending down the side of the house from the road, and with parking for 2 cars at the front of house - so big! Plus a small porch on the front of the house.
Basically, the garage will sit behind and to the side of the house, with the drive extending down the side of the house from the road, and with parking for 2 cars at the front of house - so big! Plus a small porch on the front of the house.
Firstly, get him to say clearly whether costs will increase from his original quote.
Use a contract and a detailed spec as many fallouts are due to misunderstandings. The actual contract doesn't need to be complicated, though.
Fairest way to value work done is to start from a breakdown of the costs.
eg
Substructure 100% x £2000 = £2000
External walls 50% x £5000 = £2500
Materials on site £500
giving a total due of £5000
Expect a smaller builder to need some money up front for materials. Work on a 50:50 split for labour:materials on most trades. Certain expensive items will obviously be the lion's share of that item's total cost.
And the best time to agree costs for variations is BEFORE you start. Get a firm extra-over cost for the garage door.
Keep a Forecast Final Account like this going;
Original quotation £7500
1. Floor paint £250
2. Extra sockets £250
Forecast total £8000
Use a contract and a detailed spec as many fallouts are due to misunderstandings. The actual contract doesn't need to be complicated, though.
Fairest way to value work done is to start from a breakdown of the costs.
eg
Substructure 100% x £2000 = £2000
External walls 50% x £5000 = £2500
Materials on site £500
giving a total due of £5000
Expect a smaller builder to need some money up front for materials. Work on a 50:50 split for labour:materials on most trades. Certain expensive items will obviously be the lion's share of that item's total cost.
And the best time to agree costs for variations is BEFORE you start. Get a firm extra-over cost for the garage door.
Keep a Forecast Final Account like this going;
Original quotation £7500
1. Floor paint £250
2. Extra sockets £250
Forecast total £8000
Definitely agree timescales up front - nothing official, but get it in writing.
We had a load of internal work done last year (chimney removed, new floor throughout the ground floor, re-wired, new kitchen in a different room from the old one, etc etc). In general it went very well with a friendly relationship and regular contact. Prices agreed up front of any additional work, bartering a little where necessary.
Do a spreadsheet to keep an eye on the costs and work out what percentage of the original quote you have paid for - is it consistent and less than the amount of work done? You will be amazed how costs can start to escalate if you don't keep it listed and added up (the wife saying "lets just get the coving done, and the decorating in this room"). I'm an accountant, and had to keep a close eye on what my wife was spending!
We had a few problems after our project, which has all been dealt with amicably. Keep friendly is the best advise in case of future problems.
I would be really interested to hear more of your work (and costs if you don't mind? PM me if you want it private) as I also need to rebuild a double length garage (which currently leaks), pull up an old concrete drive down the side of the house and extend a new block paved drive across the front of the house, and build a new porch! Sounds exactly the same as yours, and similar size-wise as well.
I am just doing my own plans for the porch, and then we will do one bit at a time.
Good luck with your project. Keep an eye on the builders in a friendly way, to make sure they don't miss something that will cost them money to sort out - I caughgt them forgetting to plumb in the fridge, not getting the tiles lined up in the kitchen etc. Saved them a fair bit of money sorting it out straight away not later!
Lastly, garage door - we had a Hormann fitted when we first moved in. Roller door, remote controlled etc - great door and faultless for 3 years now, so thoroughly recommended. Cost me about £1500 I think for a single door, fully fitted.
Rich
We had a load of internal work done last year (chimney removed, new floor throughout the ground floor, re-wired, new kitchen in a different room from the old one, etc etc). In general it went very well with a friendly relationship and regular contact. Prices agreed up front of any additional work, bartering a little where necessary.
Do a spreadsheet to keep an eye on the costs and work out what percentage of the original quote you have paid for - is it consistent and less than the amount of work done? You will be amazed how costs can start to escalate if you don't keep it listed and added up (the wife saying "lets just get the coving done, and the decorating in this room"). I'm an accountant, and had to keep a close eye on what my wife was spending!
We had a few problems after our project, which has all been dealt with amicably. Keep friendly is the best advise in case of future problems.
I would be really interested to hear more of your work (and costs if you don't mind? PM me if you want it private) as I also need to rebuild a double length garage (which currently leaks), pull up an old concrete drive down the side of the house and extend a new block paved drive across the front of the house, and build a new porch! Sounds exactly the same as yours, and similar size-wise as well.
I am just doing my own plans for the porch, and then we will do one bit at a time.
Good luck with your project. Keep an eye on the builders in a friendly way, to make sure they don't miss something that will cost them money to sort out - I caughgt them forgetting to plumb in the fridge, not getting the tiles lined up in the kitchen etc. Saved them a fair bit of money sorting it out straight away not later!
Lastly, garage door - we had a Hormann fitted when we first moved in. Roller door, remote controlled etc - great door and faultless for 3 years now, so thoroughly recommended. Cost me about £1500 I think for a single door, fully fitted.
Rich
Our builder likes a lot of tea.
They all seem to disappear off for sandwiches or some tool they need around 10am
They usually arrive around 8 but are off site by 3.30pm
Joking aside, if the job is over £1000 then I think some cash up front is acceptable - especially if using a small or one person company. Ours had to pay upfront for our digger today - I think this is reasonable.
Oh - they are unlikely to engage in the Russian disarmament debate on their tea break - talk of holidays in the sun + how much a meal out for 4 costs in Spain is fine though.
They all seem to disappear off for sandwiches or some tool they need around 10am
They usually arrive around 8 but are off site by 3.30pm
Joking aside, if the job is over £1000 then I think some cash up front is acceptable - especially if using a small or one person company. Ours had to pay upfront for our digger today - I think this is reasonable.
Oh - they are unlikely to engage in the Russian disarmament debate on their tea break - talk of holidays in the sun + how much a meal out for 4 costs in Spain is fine though.
Edited by parakitaMol. on Tuesday 7th July 13:05
I work as a QS for a main contractor (the builder) so can answer this with some helpful insight.
* Will he want money up front for materials? A big wedge, or will he ask as he goes along? Presumably if so it'll all have to be receipted, etc so we know exactly what it's for. I know you need to keep an amount (10%?) back until it's all completed to our satisfaction.
No decent builder should require money before they start. They have trade accounts with 28/30 day credit terms which you should benefit from. Your first payment to them should be 4 weeks from a start date on site, or perhaps 2 weeks if that's what you've agreed with him or it's a smaller build/contractor. In JCT contracts it's usual to keep 5% back while ongoing until practical completion (he finishes) i.e. 4 weeks in he asks for £15k, you pay £14,250 Then that drops to 2.5% for one year. So, let's say it's £40k at the end of the job, you pay £39k and keep that last £1k for 12 months when he asks for it, unless of course there's any problems or which he should remedy, then he can get it. Snagging should be completed within a month of finishing. This should all be detailed in any contract. Values are open to negotiation to whatever you're both happy with. RSVgone's post about valuation applies and is a good way of working out how much to pay him on a simple build.
* We haven't signed anything - is this normal? Should there be some sort of contract?
That's good news for him, bad news for you. I suspect the value of your works would fall under a JCT minor works contract if you were to go that way but it doesn't have to. I see you have a quote and this is basically the basis of your contract. I very much doubt there will be timescales, detailed specification or liquidated damages (how much he pays you if the job goes over timescale/programme, unusual on a domestic garage build) specified therein. Any piece of paper between you can be deemed as a contract though, so I would write down exactly what you are expecting with regards to programme, materials etc. make sure he agrees with it and then send him a copy. He doesn't have to sign it as a start on site will be deemed as acceptance (though I would add that in)
* Although we have plans that give dimensions and some details we still have to decide on things like new front door, garage door, blocks for drive, placement of sockets, etc., etc. Would we decide on this stuff or will we have a choice from his suppliers etc.?
Depends on what he's quoted for. Is there any specification details in his quote? What sort of bricks is he using? He will almost certainly have quoted on the cheaper end to win the job unless you specified exactly what you want down to the last nail. He may give you a range from which to choose (i.e. roof tiles or bricks) If you want to up the specification this will cost you. You may source things yourself but make sure you get them in good time for him. If you do this how do you know what his material cost is and therefore what the extra you will have to pay? (This is why Provisional and PC Sums are very handy in contracts) Delays are money and will cost you if you dally about deciding what door you want. Likewise if he is sourcing the materials he needs plenty of notice of what you want for lead in and delivery etc. Prices will have undoubtedly gone up since last summer (though this may be offset with the drop in VAT and some labour prices are dropping at the moment) so I would definitely find out, he may honour his original quote?
* Guarantees - where do we stand as far as the law goes? What must he provide?
His work should be guaranteed for a minimum of 12 months. He will have to comply with building regulations so they will be checking his work, though not everything. He should also provide the manufacturers guarantees for things like the garage door.
* How long should this sort of work take?
Depends on the scope of work. I would hazard a guess at 6 to 8 weeks minimum without problems or delays on a simple job.
* We do have a written quote in reasonable detail with prices, but it dates from last summer (he doesn't work over the winter and it took us a while to get PP). Don't know if prices will have gone up since. There are extra costs - we are opting for a roller garage door for example - which we are aware will cost more. Difficult to nail an absolute price as I am sure things will crop up during the build.
Everything on top of what he has quoted for is an extra. If you change the specification or design/layout it's a variation. As has been said, these should be quoted and agreed in writing before he starts them. For material variations there should be a saving for what he originally quoted for so watch these unless it's 'extra over'. i.e. You find a door costing £1000, but he had originally included £300 for the door in his quote so you pay £700 extra over. Same with sockets, if you move one you'll pay for the labour in moving it, possibly a new backbox and extra cable, but not the faceplate. Also, check his quantities, let's say the foundations need 4m3 of concrete, how much is he charging you for? Most things can be checked with a tape measure and some simple maths against the drawings and what's on site.
The key to a problem free build is communication. The best thing is to talk to him about anything you're not happy with before it gets out of hand but don't crawl all over everything while he's on site, this will only get his back up and you'll be in his way. If he's decent he'll keep you in the loop and explain anything you're unsure about. Without anything in writing though, you haven't a leg to stand on. You're specification sounds a tad vague so I would expect costs to increase from the original quote but there's been some good advice on here.
Hope this helps a little and good luck.
* Will he want money up front for materials? A big wedge, or will he ask as he goes along? Presumably if so it'll all have to be receipted, etc so we know exactly what it's for. I know you need to keep an amount (10%?) back until it's all completed to our satisfaction.
No decent builder should require money before they start. They have trade accounts with 28/30 day credit terms which you should benefit from. Your first payment to them should be 4 weeks from a start date on site, or perhaps 2 weeks if that's what you've agreed with him or it's a smaller build/contractor. In JCT contracts it's usual to keep 5% back while ongoing until practical completion (he finishes) i.e. 4 weeks in he asks for £15k, you pay £14,250 Then that drops to 2.5% for one year. So, let's say it's £40k at the end of the job, you pay £39k and keep that last £1k for 12 months when he asks for it, unless of course there's any problems or which he should remedy, then he can get it. Snagging should be completed within a month of finishing. This should all be detailed in any contract. Values are open to negotiation to whatever you're both happy with. RSVgone's post about valuation applies and is a good way of working out how much to pay him on a simple build.
* We haven't signed anything - is this normal? Should there be some sort of contract?
That's good news for him, bad news for you. I suspect the value of your works would fall under a JCT minor works contract if you were to go that way but it doesn't have to. I see you have a quote and this is basically the basis of your contract. I very much doubt there will be timescales, detailed specification or liquidated damages (how much he pays you if the job goes over timescale/programme, unusual on a domestic garage build) specified therein. Any piece of paper between you can be deemed as a contract though, so I would write down exactly what you are expecting with regards to programme, materials etc. make sure he agrees with it and then send him a copy. He doesn't have to sign it as a start on site will be deemed as acceptance (though I would add that in)
* Although we have plans that give dimensions and some details we still have to decide on things like new front door, garage door, blocks for drive, placement of sockets, etc., etc. Would we decide on this stuff or will we have a choice from his suppliers etc.?
Depends on what he's quoted for. Is there any specification details in his quote? What sort of bricks is he using? He will almost certainly have quoted on the cheaper end to win the job unless you specified exactly what you want down to the last nail. He may give you a range from which to choose (i.e. roof tiles or bricks) If you want to up the specification this will cost you. You may source things yourself but make sure you get them in good time for him. If you do this how do you know what his material cost is and therefore what the extra you will have to pay? (This is why Provisional and PC Sums are very handy in contracts) Delays are money and will cost you if you dally about deciding what door you want. Likewise if he is sourcing the materials he needs plenty of notice of what you want for lead in and delivery etc. Prices will have undoubtedly gone up since last summer (though this may be offset with the drop in VAT and some labour prices are dropping at the moment) so I would definitely find out, he may honour his original quote?
* Guarantees - where do we stand as far as the law goes? What must he provide?
His work should be guaranteed for a minimum of 12 months. He will have to comply with building regulations so they will be checking his work, though not everything. He should also provide the manufacturers guarantees for things like the garage door.
* How long should this sort of work take?
Depends on the scope of work. I would hazard a guess at 6 to 8 weeks minimum without problems or delays on a simple job.
* We do have a written quote in reasonable detail with prices, but it dates from last summer (he doesn't work over the winter and it took us a while to get PP). Don't know if prices will have gone up since. There are extra costs - we are opting for a roller garage door for example - which we are aware will cost more. Difficult to nail an absolute price as I am sure things will crop up during the build.
Everything on top of what he has quoted for is an extra. If you change the specification or design/layout it's a variation. As has been said, these should be quoted and agreed in writing before he starts them. For material variations there should be a saving for what he originally quoted for so watch these unless it's 'extra over'. i.e. You find a door costing £1000, but he had originally included £300 for the door in his quote so you pay £700 extra over. Same with sockets, if you move one you'll pay for the labour in moving it, possibly a new backbox and extra cable, but not the faceplate. Also, check his quantities, let's say the foundations need 4m3 of concrete, how much is he charging you for? Most things can be checked with a tape measure and some simple maths against the drawings and what's on site.
The key to a problem free build is communication. The best thing is to talk to him about anything you're not happy with before it gets out of hand but don't crawl all over everything while he's on site, this will only get his back up and you'll be in his way. If he's decent he'll keep you in the loop and explain anything you're unsure about. Without anything in writing though, you haven't a leg to stand on. You're specification sounds a tad vague so I would expect costs to increase from the original quote but there's been some good advice on here.
Hope this helps a little and good luck.
NiceCupOfTea said:
Although we have plans that give dimensions and some details we still have to decide on things like new front door, garage door, blocks for drive, placement of sockets, etc., etc. Would we decide on this stuff or will we have a choice from his suppliers etc.?
As well as parakitamol's suggestion - tea, lots of it, dark, two sugars, please - builders like decisiveness. Some of those things could be long lead (in terms of the job).So I'd suggest you make lists:
- Things you need to decide
- Things you need to buy (where you need to make the decision, so door handles, but not Gripfill)
- Things you have decided - ie detail specifications.
Run through them with your builder.
On things to buy, he might have suggestions for retailers. He might come with you. He might have some useful input. Or you can agree that he will choose them. And he'll give you a deadline when he needs them on the table.
Detail specs might mean things like number of power sockets and position (e.g. height might be important). Some might be exact dimensions, some might be functional (e.g. I needed a bank of switches fitted. I gave a preferred layout, but if that wasn't possible, I explained the logic of how I wanted them grouped - he could then make a decision if I wasn't there).
And there are some things you can't decide until you're standing in a half-finished room. Know what they are (and more will come up mid-project), and know what your ideas are. When a decision is needed, reading your notes means you'll be more likely to make the right, quick decision.
It may be pedantic, but I got the things I really wanted. And he could get on with doing the job. When he needed direction, he got an immediate answer.
^ good points.
The last piece of work we had done, builder arrives and says he needs a skip.
Of course he does.
We knew that & so did he. Nobody asked the other who was arranging it.
Resulting in a skip arriving at 3pm on the first day instead of 8am and delaying the job by a day. And annoying myself.
On larger projects this could really waste you time + money.
Today he will have arrived to find beautifully demarked digging areas (pink aerosol) and gaffa taped notes "this kind of brick" "that kind of stone" etc.
The last piece of work we had done, builder arrives and says he needs a skip.
Of course he does.
We knew that & so did he. Nobody asked the other who was arranging it.
Resulting in a skip arriving at 3pm on the first day instead of 8am and delaying the job by a day. And annoying myself.
On larger projects this could really waste you time + money.
Today he will have arrived to find beautifully demarked digging areas (pink aerosol) and gaffa taped notes "this kind of brick" "that kind of stone" etc.
parakitaMol. said:
The last piece of work we had done, builder arrives and says he needs a skip.
Of course he does.
We knew that & so did he. Nobody asked the other who was arranging it.
I would have asked him if he needs someone to organise his tool hire as well as his waste disposalOf course he does.
We knew that & so did he. Nobody asked the other who was arranging it.
he took the piss
feeling very much out of my depth...Nuisance_Value said:
I work as a QS for a main contractor (the builder) so can answer this with some helpful insight.
* Will he want money up front for materials? A big wedge, or will he ask as he goes along? Presumably if so it'll all have to be receipted, etc so we know exactly what it's for. I know you need to keep an amount (10%?) back until it's all completed to our satisfaction.
No decent builder should require money before they start. They have trade accounts with 28/30 day credit terms which you should benefit from. Your first payment to them should be 4 weeks from a start date on site, or perhaps 2 weeks if that's what you've agreed with him or it's a smaller build/contractor. In JCT contracts it's usual to keep 5% back while ongoing until practical completion (he finishes) i.e. 4 weeks in he asks for £15k, you pay £14,250 Then that drops to 2.5% for one year. So, let's say it's £40k at the end of the job, you pay £39k and keep that last £1k for 12 months when he asks for it, unless of course there's any problems or which he should remedy, then he can get it. Snagging should be completed within a month of finishing. This should all be detailed in any contract. Values are open to negotiation to whatever you're both happy with. RSVgone's post about valuation applies and is a good way of working out how much to pay him on a simple build.
* We haven't signed anything - is this normal? Should there be some sort of contract?
That's good news for him, bad news for you. I suspect the value of your works would fall under a JCT minor works contract if you were to go that way but it doesn't have to. I see you have a quote and this is basically the basis of your contract. I very much doubt there will be timescales, detailed specification or liquidated damages (how much he pays you if the job goes over timescale/programme, unusual on a domestic garage build) specified therein. Any piece of paper between you can be deemed as a contract though, so I would write down exactly what you are expecting with regards to programme, materials etc. make sure he agrees with it and then send him a copy. He doesn't have to sign it as a start on site will be deemed as acceptance (though I would add that in)
* Although we have plans that give dimensions and some details we still have to decide on things like new front door, garage door, blocks for drive, placement of sockets, etc., etc. Would we decide on this stuff or will we have a choice from his suppliers etc.?
Depends on what he's quoted for. Is there any specification details in his quote? What sort of bricks is he using? He will almost certainly have quoted on the cheaper end to win the job unless you specified exactly what you want down to the last nail. He may give you a range from which to choose (i.e. roof tiles or bricks) If you want to up the specification this will cost you. You may source things yourself but make sure you get them in good time for him. If you do this how do you know what his material cost is and therefore what the extra you will have to pay? (This is why Provisional and PC Sums are very handy in contracts) Delays are money and will cost you if you dally about deciding what door you want. Likewise if he is sourcing the materials he needs plenty of notice of what you want for lead in and delivery etc. Prices will have undoubtedly gone up since last summer (though this may be offset with the drop in VAT and some labour prices are dropping at the moment) so I would definitely find out, he may honour his original quote?
* Guarantees - where do we stand as far as the law goes? What must he provide?
His work should be guaranteed for a minimum of 12 months. He will have to comply with building regulations so they will be checking his work, though not everything. He should also provide the manufacturers guarantees for things like the garage door.
* How long should this sort of work take?
Depends on the scope of work. I would hazard a guess at 6 to 8 weeks minimum without problems or delays on a simple job.
* We do have a written quote in reasonable detail with prices, but it dates from last summer (he doesn't work over the winter and it took us a while to get PP). Don't know if prices will have gone up since. There are extra costs - we are opting for a roller garage door for example - which we are aware will cost more. Difficult to nail an absolute price as I am sure things will crop up during the build.
Everything on top of what he has quoted for is an extra. If you change the specification or design/layout it's a variation. As has been said, these should be quoted and agreed in writing before he starts them. For material variations there should be a saving for what he originally quoted for so watch these unless it's 'extra over'. i.e. You find a door costing £1000, but he had originally included £300 for the door in his quote so you pay £700 extra over. Same with sockets, if you move one you'll pay for the labour in moving it, possibly a new backbox and extra cable, but not the faceplate. Also, check his quantities, let's say the foundations need 4m3 of concrete, how much is he charging you for? Most things can be checked with a tape measure and some simple maths against the drawings and what's on site.
The key to a problem free build is communication. The best thing is to talk to him about anything you're not happy with before it gets out of hand but don't crawl all over everything while he's on site, this will only get his back up and you'll be in his way. If he's decent he'll keep you in the loop and explain anything you're unsure about. Without anything in writing though, you haven't a leg to stand on. You're specification sounds a tad vague so I would expect costs to increase from the original quote but there's been some good advice on here.
Hope this helps a little and good luck.
The main reason many builders ask for a payment upfront to cover materials is simply to cover their own ass should the person having the work done refuse to pay up, this has happened to a few builders I know, nothing wrong with the quality of their work was simply the client thinking "sod it you did the work now take me to court if you like!" * Will he want money up front for materials? A big wedge, or will he ask as he goes along? Presumably if so it'll all have to be receipted, etc so we know exactly what it's for. I know you need to keep an amount (10%?) back until it's all completed to our satisfaction.
No decent builder should require money before they start. They have trade accounts with 28/30 day credit terms which you should benefit from. Your first payment to them should be 4 weeks from a start date on site, or perhaps 2 weeks if that's what you've agreed with him or it's a smaller build/contractor. In JCT contracts it's usual to keep 5% back while ongoing until practical completion (he finishes) i.e. 4 weeks in he asks for £15k, you pay £14,250 Then that drops to 2.5% for one year. So, let's say it's £40k at the end of the job, you pay £39k and keep that last £1k for 12 months when he asks for it, unless of course there's any problems or which he should remedy, then he can get it. Snagging should be completed within a month of finishing. This should all be detailed in any contract. Values are open to negotiation to whatever you're both happy with. RSVgone's post about valuation applies and is a good way of working out how much to pay him on a simple build.
* We haven't signed anything - is this normal? Should there be some sort of contract?
That's good news for him, bad news for you. I suspect the value of your works would fall under a JCT minor works contract if you were to go that way but it doesn't have to. I see you have a quote and this is basically the basis of your contract. I very much doubt there will be timescales, detailed specification or liquidated damages (how much he pays you if the job goes over timescale/programme, unusual on a domestic garage build) specified therein. Any piece of paper between you can be deemed as a contract though, so I would write down exactly what you are expecting with regards to programme, materials etc. make sure he agrees with it and then send him a copy. He doesn't have to sign it as a start on site will be deemed as acceptance (though I would add that in)
* Although we have plans that give dimensions and some details we still have to decide on things like new front door, garage door, blocks for drive, placement of sockets, etc., etc. Would we decide on this stuff or will we have a choice from his suppliers etc.?
Depends on what he's quoted for. Is there any specification details in his quote? What sort of bricks is he using? He will almost certainly have quoted on the cheaper end to win the job unless you specified exactly what you want down to the last nail. He may give you a range from which to choose (i.e. roof tiles or bricks) If you want to up the specification this will cost you. You may source things yourself but make sure you get them in good time for him. If you do this how do you know what his material cost is and therefore what the extra you will have to pay? (This is why Provisional and PC Sums are very handy in contracts) Delays are money and will cost you if you dally about deciding what door you want. Likewise if he is sourcing the materials he needs plenty of notice of what you want for lead in and delivery etc. Prices will have undoubtedly gone up since last summer (though this may be offset with the drop in VAT and some labour prices are dropping at the moment) so I would definitely find out, he may honour his original quote?
* Guarantees - where do we stand as far as the law goes? What must he provide?
His work should be guaranteed for a minimum of 12 months. He will have to comply with building regulations so they will be checking his work, though not everything. He should also provide the manufacturers guarantees for things like the garage door.
* How long should this sort of work take?
Depends on the scope of work. I would hazard a guess at 6 to 8 weeks minimum without problems or delays on a simple job.
* We do have a written quote in reasonable detail with prices, but it dates from last summer (he doesn't work over the winter and it took us a while to get PP). Don't know if prices will have gone up since. There are extra costs - we are opting for a roller garage door for example - which we are aware will cost more. Difficult to nail an absolute price as I am sure things will crop up during the build.
Everything on top of what he has quoted for is an extra. If you change the specification or design/layout it's a variation. As has been said, these should be quoted and agreed in writing before he starts them. For material variations there should be a saving for what he originally quoted for so watch these unless it's 'extra over'. i.e. You find a door costing £1000, but he had originally included £300 for the door in his quote so you pay £700 extra over. Same with sockets, if you move one you'll pay for the labour in moving it, possibly a new backbox and extra cable, but not the faceplate. Also, check his quantities, let's say the foundations need 4m3 of concrete, how much is he charging you for? Most things can be checked with a tape measure and some simple maths against the drawings and what's on site.
The key to a problem free build is communication. The best thing is to talk to him about anything you're not happy with before it gets out of hand but don't crawl all over everything while he's on site, this will only get his back up and you'll be in his way. If he's decent he'll keep you in the loop and explain anything you're unsure about. Without anything in writing though, you haven't a leg to stand on. You're specification sounds a tad vague so I would expect costs to increase from the original quote but there's been some good advice on here.
Hope this helps a little and good luck.
saleen836 said:
The main reason many builders ask for a payment upfront to cover materials is simply to cover their own ass should the person having the work done refuse to pay up, this has happened to a few builders I know, nothing wrong with the quality of their work was simply the client thinking "sod it you did the work now take me to court if you like!"
Well this is why contractors also choose who they work for with some caution also. We have turned down £2m contracts before as we felt the guy didn't have the financing and backing of the banks. On larger jobs it's not unusual to set up an intermediate to hold the money, this gives both the client and the contractor confidence. It's a two way trust issue. Of course no decent sized job would get anywhere near completion due to interim payments and even a job of this size he would be paying after a couple of weeks, four at the most. The most a contractor would lose is the initial 2 or 4 week outlay in setting up site etc, though this of course can still cost thousands of pounds.On a smaller scale, should your scenario happen, I suspect most guys would simply go round and knock the work down or retrieve what they could from it. I know I would.
The OP could always make a small payment as soon as work starts or materials are delivered which would be included in the next interim, but I would be wary of any guy taking on a £30k - £40k contract who cannot fund the initial outlay.
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