Planning question (may need legal)
Discussion
Evening all,
Having just triumphantly returned home from a few difficult weeks away with work, the wind has been somewhat taken from my sails by a letter that Mrs Nownek has just presented me with.
I'm a bit pissed off about this so stop me if I start ranting.
To explain:
I live in a mid-terrace ex-council house purchased by me requiring what estate agents euphamistically refer to as "modernising." I'm about 18 months away from finishing the project (which I mostly work on on a DIY basis as and when work allows). The garden to the house is only accessible from my back door and via a groundfloor passageway underneath/between my neighbour's house and mine. At the end of my garden (and my neighbour's) is a block of garages. These are council owned (I think) and run by an agent (may actually be owned by them, I need to find out). You can see back of them at the end of the garden here:
Opposite them is an access road and then (across that road, facing them) another block of garages. Beyond that are more houses (you can just see the end of these in the photo).
The letter states that the agent is considering demolishing both sets of garages and building 3 two-storey houses plus additional parking. The reason given is that the garages have "been a hotspot for anti-social behaviour and over time they have become increasingly difficult to let."
They want my views.
There are no plans attached so it is hard to provide a detailed response but my initial reaction is:
So my questions are am I about to get shafted? What can I reasonably use as grounds to object? Is there any benefit to going legal?
Furthermore, if I am about to get shafted, can I turn this to my advantage? Can I push them into structuring the project so that I can have vehicular access to the end of my garden(there will have to be an access road of some sort to replace the road between the garages)? Can I insist that they replace the border at the bottom of my garden with a replacement wall/fence? What about my lovely shed?
Sorry for the tome. I'd really appreciate some advice.
Having just triumphantly returned home from a few difficult weeks away with work, the wind has been somewhat taken from my sails by a letter that Mrs Nownek has just presented me with.
I'm a bit pissed off about this so stop me if I start ranting.
To explain:
I live in a mid-terrace ex-council house purchased by me requiring what estate agents euphamistically refer to as "modernising." I'm about 18 months away from finishing the project (which I mostly work on on a DIY basis as and when work allows). The garden to the house is only accessible from my back door and via a groundfloor passageway underneath/between my neighbour's house and mine. At the end of my garden (and my neighbour's) is a block of garages. These are council owned (I think) and run by an agent (may actually be owned by them, I need to find out). You can see back of them at the end of the garden here:
Opposite them is an access road and then (across that road, facing them) another block of garages. Beyond that are more houses (you can just see the end of these in the photo).
The letter states that the agent is considering demolishing both sets of garages and building 3 two-storey houses plus additional parking. The reason given is that the garages have "been a hotspot for anti-social behaviour and over time they have become increasingly difficult to let."
They want my views.
There are no plans attached so it is hard to provide a detailed response but my initial reaction is:
- The back of my house is not currently overlooked. I am very uneasy about the prospect of this changing
- My garden is a reasonably secure, enclosed space. The back of the garage is a significant contributing factor to this so removal of the garages will have a material effect on my home and garden
- I'm concerned about the effect that this will have on the value of my house
- Irrespective of the value question, I plan to sell my home in the next 2 years or so but am not in a position to do so right now. I'm assuming that having a major construction project at the bottom of my garden is going to make it a very hard sell.
- I fundamentally disagree with their analysis. As the people who live next to the garages we have never had cause to complain about anti-social behaviour. Even if this were the case, the proper process, to my mind, is to involve the police not start on some newbuilds...
- I've tried to rent and buy one or more of these garages in the past
- When both the house and the garages were council owned, workshops (see picture) were constructed against them. Presumably I'd be losing my workshop when the garges are demolished.
So my questions are am I about to get shafted? What can I reasonably use as grounds to object? Is there any benefit to going legal?
Furthermore, if I am about to get shafted, can I turn this to my advantage? Can I push them into structuring the project so that I can have vehicular access to the end of my garden(there will have to be an access road of some sort to replace the road between the garages)? Can I insist that they replace the border at the bottom of my garden with a replacement wall/fence? What about my lovely shed?
Sorry for the tome. I'd really appreciate some advice.
Edited by nownek on Friday 16th October 20:40
I'd suggest you speak to your planning officer and find out how they feel about the proposal. They might be on your side. At this stage, don't worry about putting your point of view across, just find out what their concerns are and what the process will be for the agent to get permission.
Speak to your parish council, local councillor and neighbours. Find out how they feel.
Don't show your hand until you know who is on your side, and what the issues are. If you start arguing about things that other people don't care about, then your case will be far weaker.
Your parish council will comment on any planning application. Whilst they cannot force any particular outcome, if they vote against it, it will at least have to go to committee and the planners will have to discuss the application in more detail.
Good luck.
Speak to your parish council, local councillor and neighbours. Find out how they feel.
Don't show your hand until you know who is on your side, and what the issues are. If you start arguing about things that other people don't care about, then your case will be far weaker.
Your parish council will comment on any planning application. Whilst they cannot force any particular outcome, if they vote against it, it will at least have to go to committee and the planners will have to discuss the application in more detail.
Good luck.
In terms of the immediate problem of overlooking, what is considered 'acceptable' is quite well established.
Developers can allow fairly close overlooking distances within a development, these days, but relationships to existing properties tend to be set using guidelines that were in general circulation a few years ago.
Basic rule of thumb is that if the properties are the same heights and on the same level (ie. the ground they are sitting on doesn't slope dramatically), they'll usually expect 21 metres between a main (eg lounge) and main elevation, and 12 metres between secondary and main, and so on. A blank elevation is acceptable, in theory, right up to the boundary, so long as it doesn't cause unreasonable loss of light.
If you've got a very long garden, you can still argue that they should maintain a distance of half of the 21m main-main (ie. 10.5 metres) to your abck boundary, to maintain adequate privacy in your back garden, though this isn't quite so set in stone.
Do bear in mind that while you have the right to object to any Planning application, your objection will only carry any weight if it is considered to be 'material', and the criteria for what constitutes a 'material' objection are quite arcane. For example, loss of privacy and development out of character with its surroundings are material, effect on property value or loss of an existing view out of your property are not.
Best advice I can give is that if you want your objection to count, get clued up about both national and local planning policy. Search your local authority's website for a document called the 'Local Plan' (and/or possibly the Local Development Framework) and 'Supplementary Planning Guidance' or 'Supplementary Planning Documents' and make your objection based on the policies and guidance containted in them (ie. object if anything the developer is proposing does not seem to conform to the 'rules' set out in these documents).
Developers can allow fairly close overlooking distances within a development, these days, but relationships to existing properties tend to be set using guidelines that were in general circulation a few years ago.
Basic rule of thumb is that if the properties are the same heights and on the same level (ie. the ground they are sitting on doesn't slope dramatically), they'll usually expect 21 metres between a main (eg lounge) and main elevation, and 12 metres between secondary and main, and so on. A blank elevation is acceptable, in theory, right up to the boundary, so long as it doesn't cause unreasonable loss of light.
If you've got a very long garden, you can still argue that they should maintain a distance of half of the 21m main-main (ie. 10.5 metres) to your abck boundary, to maintain adequate privacy in your back garden, though this isn't quite so set in stone.
Do bear in mind that while you have the right to object to any Planning application, your objection will only carry any weight if it is considered to be 'material', and the criteria for what constitutes a 'material' objection are quite arcane. For example, loss of privacy and development out of character with its surroundings are material, effect on property value or loss of an existing view out of your property are not.
Best advice I can give is that if you want your objection to count, get clued up about both national and local planning policy. Search your local authority's website for a document called the 'Local Plan' (and/or possibly the Local Development Framework) and 'Supplementary Planning Guidance' or 'Supplementary Planning Documents' and make your objection based on the policies and guidance containted in them (ie. object if anything the developer is proposing does not seem to conform to the 'rules' set out in these documents).
I sat & thought about replying to this, as you may not like some of the responses BUT if nothing more it may save you from spending money 'getting all legal' when there may be little that can be done.
It is also difficult to envisage the development without actually seeing a plan or the location (I dont expect you to put your address on here) but if an application has been made then you should be able to either view it online or go to the Councill offices and view the details there.
But based on the way that you have described it I would comments as follows;
The back of your garden is not overlooked - as Sam_68 says, there are already guidelines on disances between elevations/windows and these will vary depending upon several factors; room use, height of window/floor level, etc. in this case you have said that you have a 40m garden therefore I would say that any wall/window, etc on the boundary will not compromise those distances. Bottom line is that you could have a window there. These distances are what is perceived as 'not causing issues' on overlooking, shading, etc.
Value of your house - irrelevant in terms of planning. Lets say that there was a severe nuisance issue at the bottom of your garden that was detrimental to the value of your property would any developer have a right to payment from you if he were to increase the value of your property by removing that nuisance? Hence why the issue of propoerty value is of no concern to the planning authority in determining an application of this nature.
Selling at the time of building works - again this is no relevance to the issue of determining a planning application.
Their analysis - this is where it would be beneficial to have knowledge of the site as I cannot see why they would wish to cite this as a reason for justifying the application. From the information given the site appears to be a site of old garages and if already within the built environment and satisfies the distances to existing properties (given above) then on the face of it securing a planning permission would appear a very simple affair.
Trying to rent a garage - not sure why this would be of any relevance to the planning officer. Someone owns a block of garages that probably bring an income, perhaps that income isnt enough and they want to secure a planning permission and sell it off, is there anything wrong with this process? If you owned the site and had £200k(?) riding on it would you 'really' care if you were able to satisfy the planning criteria?
Losing workshop - basically no! Firstly they have no 'right' to remove your property, but the simple question is 'who owns the wall' and then this can lead onto a whole host of issues; length of use, under licence, etc. etc. and the developer would not wish to lose money on entertaining any such dialogue. My reaction would be to any client in this position is to leave the wall well alone! It is already a secure boundary (brick?) and has structures attached to it.
No one 'likes' development that affects them, but I am not entirely sure why you feel that there may be a financial loss... perhaps when you come to sell the properties will be part constructed, or even completed, and any propsective purchaser will not realise that they never existed. They may even be relieved that there are no longer a block of old garages that 'could' give rise to anti-social behaviour? This may be beneficial to you?
In answer to your other questions;
What can I do to reasonably object - that will depend entirely upon the proposed layout of the development, without sight of this is it simply not possible to comment, evaluate or advise.
Is there any benefit in going legal - what do you hope to achieve by doing so? (serious question) do you have a perceived value that you believe you will be worse off due to the development? 'going legal' will be a costly exercise in employing a 'planning consultant' or 'legal representative', and will they give you their honest opinion of take your money? I have had the 'joy' of being involved in several planning disuputes all of which ensured that the solicitors gained healthy fees...
In terms of 'turning it to your advantage', why would a developer wish to 'gift' you anything when they potentially have no need to? (again, I haven't seen the plans) If they feel that they have a proposal that 'ticks all the boxes', in planning terms then why would they even need to speak to you? If I asked you to give me £1000 would you, if you had no need to? IF you were to approach them it 'may' be possible to purchase access rights from them if it didn't affect their proposals, but that if for you to decide.
Summary...
You will need to see what the drawings/plans say, if an application has been submitted then let 'us' know the application ref number and I can call have a look online (obviously you don't really want everyone knowing which house is yours i.e. mid terrace & next to the site) so feel free to send me a message - providing that you don't 'hate' me for making the above comments!
Once you have this information only then can a representation be made against the application BUT it has to be read against current planning policy (as Sam_68 says) if you (& neighbours) were to make comments that were not 'material considerations' then you will belittle your representations.
As I said at the outset... I don't want to see you 'waste' £5k in consultant & legal fees when there is possibly little that can be done to stop the development. I have been there & done it too many times for & with clients despite then not wishing to take the advice that was originally given.
It is also difficult to envisage the development without actually seeing a plan or the location (I dont expect you to put your address on here) but if an application has been made then you should be able to either view it online or go to the Councill offices and view the details there.
But based on the way that you have described it I would comments as follows;
The back of your garden is not overlooked - as Sam_68 says, there are already guidelines on disances between elevations/windows and these will vary depending upon several factors; room use, height of window/floor level, etc. in this case you have said that you have a 40m garden therefore I would say that any wall/window, etc on the boundary will not compromise those distances. Bottom line is that you could have a window there. These distances are what is perceived as 'not causing issues' on overlooking, shading, etc.
Value of your house - irrelevant in terms of planning. Lets say that there was a severe nuisance issue at the bottom of your garden that was detrimental to the value of your property would any developer have a right to payment from you if he were to increase the value of your property by removing that nuisance? Hence why the issue of propoerty value is of no concern to the planning authority in determining an application of this nature.
Selling at the time of building works - again this is no relevance to the issue of determining a planning application.
Their analysis - this is where it would be beneficial to have knowledge of the site as I cannot see why they would wish to cite this as a reason for justifying the application. From the information given the site appears to be a site of old garages and if already within the built environment and satisfies the distances to existing properties (given above) then on the face of it securing a planning permission would appear a very simple affair.
Trying to rent a garage - not sure why this would be of any relevance to the planning officer. Someone owns a block of garages that probably bring an income, perhaps that income isnt enough and they want to secure a planning permission and sell it off, is there anything wrong with this process? If you owned the site and had £200k(?) riding on it would you 'really' care if you were able to satisfy the planning criteria?
Losing workshop - basically no! Firstly they have no 'right' to remove your property, but the simple question is 'who owns the wall' and then this can lead onto a whole host of issues; length of use, under licence, etc. etc. and the developer would not wish to lose money on entertaining any such dialogue. My reaction would be to any client in this position is to leave the wall well alone! It is already a secure boundary (brick?) and has structures attached to it.
No one 'likes' development that affects them, but I am not entirely sure why you feel that there may be a financial loss... perhaps when you come to sell the properties will be part constructed, or even completed, and any propsective purchaser will not realise that they never existed. They may even be relieved that there are no longer a block of old garages that 'could' give rise to anti-social behaviour? This may be beneficial to you?
In answer to your other questions;
What can I do to reasonably object - that will depend entirely upon the proposed layout of the development, without sight of this is it simply not possible to comment, evaluate or advise.
Is there any benefit in going legal - what do you hope to achieve by doing so? (serious question) do you have a perceived value that you believe you will be worse off due to the development? 'going legal' will be a costly exercise in employing a 'planning consultant' or 'legal representative', and will they give you their honest opinion of take your money? I have had the 'joy' of being involved in several planning disuputes all of which ensured that the solicitors gained healthy fees...
In terms of 'turning it to your advantage', why would a developer wish to 'gift' you anything when they potentially have no need to? (again, I haven't seen the plans) If they feel that they have a proposal that 'ticks all the boxes', in planning terms then why would they even need to speak to you? If I asked you to give me £1000 would you, if you had no need to? IF you were to approach them it 'may' be possible to purchase access rights from them if it didn't affect their proposals, but that if for you to decide.
Summary...
You will need to see what the drawings/plans say, if an application has been submitted then let 'us' know the application ref number and I can call have a look online (obviously you don't really want everyone knowing which house is yours i.e. mid terrace & next to the site) so feel free to send me a message - providing that you don't 'hate' me for making the above comments!
Once you have this information only then can a representation be made against the application BUT it has to be read against current planning policy (as Sam_68 says) if you (& neighbours) were to make comments that were not 'material considerations' then you will belittle your representations.
As I said at the outset... I don't want to see you 'waste' £5k in consultant & legal fees when there is possibly little that can be done to stop the development. I have been there & done it too many times for & with clients despite then not wishing to take the advice that was originally given.
Andy,
Thanks for your reply- I do appreciate it. It's much as I suspected after I'd sat and thought it through over the weekend.
As you say, it's very difficult to give a reasoned reply given that there aren't any plans at the moment, they are just looking for initial responses.
I accept that my points about loss of value and inconvenience are irrelevant to the planning process but wanted to highlight them here as part of my original question because I wanted to make the point that I wasn't merely being obstuctive, when asking for advice. They aren't issues I plan to raise in my discussions.
The anti-social bevaiour point I wanted to raise here because it irks me somewhat that this is being portrayed as being in the community interest when I believe that it isn't- it's a scheme to make some money. Again, whether or not there is a problem associated with the block is not really part of my cobjection.
I've drafted an initial reply which says that it is not possible to give a response without more detail and asks for plans. It briefly explains that the level of privacy and security afforded by the current set-up is important to me, that I believe that the garages are a useful amenity for the local residents (as evidenced by the current waiting list to let them) and that their removal may increase existing parking problems in the area. I need to find out if they remain council owned because, if so, there may be existing policies relating to the provision of garage space (for council tenants or otherwise)
The point about turning it to my advantage is really in recognition of the fact that there may be very little I can do about this. However, the end of my garden is currently not accessible so, in the spirit that every cloud has a silver lining, perhaps I should try to make the best of it. At the very least, if the development is still at an early stage, there can be no harm in trying to see if there is an opportunity to buy more land or make changes to the garden such that my own position is maximised as far as possible (eg by having a gateway from the garden to the road).
Thanks for your reply- I do appreciate it. It's much as I suspected after I'd sat and thought it through over the weekend.
As you say, it's very difficult to give a reasoned reply given that there aren't any plans at the moment, they are just looking for initial responses.
I accept that my points about loss of value and inconvenience are irrelevant to the planning process but wanted to highlight them here as part of my original question because I wanted to make the point that I wasn't merely being obstuctive, when asking for advice. They aren't issues I plan to raise in my discussions.
The anti-social bevaiour point I wanted to raise here because it irks me somewhat that this is being portrayed as being in the community interest when I believe that it isn't- it's a scheme to make some money. Again, whether or not there is a problem associated with the block is not really part of my cobjection.
I've drafted an initial reply which says that it is not possible to give a response without more detail and asks for plans. It briefly explains that the level of privacy and security afforded by the current set-up is important to me, that I believe that the garages are a useful amenity for the local residents (as evidenced by the current waiting list to let them) and that their removal may increase existing parking problems in the area. I need to find out if they remain council owned because, if so, there may be existing policies relating to the provision of garage space (for council tenants or otherwise)
The point about turning it to my advantage is really in recognition of the fact that there may be very little I can do about this. However, the end of my garden is currently not accessible so, in the spirit that every cloud has a silver lining, perhaps I should try to make the best of it. At the very least, if the development is still at an early stage, there can be no harm in trying to see if there is an opportunity to buy more land or make changes to the garden such that my own position is maximised as far as possible (eg by having a gateway from the garden to the road).
If you've tried to rent/lease or purchase one or more of the garages, then you need to provide some sort of proof that you attempted to do so, or at least provide dates and outcome, written down.
Why not offer to buy the garage or garages behind your plot? and see if the neighbours are willing to do likewise... That would seem like the best option all round. It would improve the local area and could improve the social problems being cited. It might also be worth indicating that as the garages are in a bad state of disrepair that you are only really purchasing the land, as you will have to have them demolished and a replacement garage constructed.. etc.. Feel free to pick and choose the problems you think will be created or solved by your actions and mention them (a few times!).. Of course fel free to mention those points that have been raised by the current owners that you think are invalid and state why.
Of course if they (the vendors) have a buyer already in place (as if) they may well just say no to any offer...
I'd also be mentioning infill and over-density.
Whereabouts are you? To get a feeling for the likelihood that they may well uphold an infill or over-density objection..
I'd also contact the local planning office and try to speak to the Case Officer for your area, who should be assigned the case. Try and get their feeling on the subject.. It may well be that if they say they are unlikely to pass it "whatever" then if you approached the vendors/current owners and they knew this, then they may well be more willing to sell, to raise some capital and lose an expensive asset which is sitting on their books and by expensive I mean in terms of their time and remuneration, i.e. it costs them to lease them and they'd rather just get rid of the things.
Why not offer to buy the garage or garages behind your plot? and see if the neighbours are willing to do likewise... That would seem like the best option all round. It would improve the local area and could improve the social problems being cited. It might also be worth indicating that as the garages are in a bad state of disrepair that you are only really purchasing the land, as you will have to have them demolished and a replacement garage constructed.. etc.. Feel free to pick and choose the problems you think will be created or solved by your actions and mention them (a few times!).. Of course fel free to mention those points that have been raised by the current owners that you think are invalid and state why.
Of course if they (the vendors) have a buyer already in place (as if) they may well just say no to any offer...
I'd also be mentioning infill and over-density.
Whereabouts are you? To get a feeling for the likelihood that they may well uphold an infill or over-density objection..
I'd also contact the local planning office and try to speak to the Case Officer for your area, who should be assigned the case. Try and get their feeling on the subject.. It may well be that if they say they are unlikely to pass it "whatever" then if you approached the vendors/current owners and they knew this, then they may well be more willing to sell, to raise some capital and lose an expensive asset which is sitting on their books and by expensive I mean in terms of their time and remuneration, i.e. it costs them to lease them and they'd rather just get rid of the things.
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