Question about landlords and withholding rent

[muffinmenace]

Hi Guys,

I'm not looking for definitive legal advice but more what to do; My central heating stopped working on the 23rd, left a voice mail with the landlord, said he'd send someone round. Nothing till the 27th, he hit a motor with a screwdriver, said he'd be back in a hour. Never saw him again. Just had a text off the landlord who says he's struggling to get the information required by the repair man to him due to him being in Majorca or something.

I called the CAB but they said I'd have to make an appointment as they can't really talk about legal advice over the phone, and I'm mad busy with work I doubt I could get the time off.

My question is this. I pay £450 a month, divided by the days is roughly £15 a day. Can I get away with withholding rent for each days it's been effected? I feel that it is totally unacceptable (and a breach of contract), it went off last year for two weeks and I went down with Flu and Tonsillitis but I payed up. this year I purchased a new electric radiator and I've been surviving. What's the worst that can happen, he gives me notice?

Thanks

[Plotloss]

Could be held as a breach of the implied right of quiet enjoyment but you'd need a lawyer to say for sure.

[singlecoil]

Witholding the rent seems reasonable to me, but there is a lot of landlords on PH and I expect some of them will be along to tell you how wrong you are for even thinking about it.

[AMLK]

I am afraid you cannot withhold rent, even though this sounds reasonable. I don't know all the legal side to it but a BiB friend said you MUST NOT do this - sorry. Do you rent privately or through a company? You may be able to take your landlord to a small claims court to get money back due to this, but I would check with CAB.

[Davel]

As a Landlord, I'm horrified at his lack of action.

Morally, if not legally, he should have sent someone else round to make sure that you weren't left without heating or provided a temporary alternative.

At the very least, he should compensate you for your inconvenience.

You can't legally withold rent but you should be able to get some allowance for his/her failure to get this sorted promptly.

[eldar]

Heating failing just before Christmas is difficult, for both sides. That said, it shouldn't take a fortnight to fix. Don't withhold rent, that isn't good. Tell him if it isn't fixed in 24 hours, you will get someone in to fix it at his expense.

[edg516]

I used to rent out my flat via an agency, if the tennets had problems then they would tell the agency who would then fix the problem and bill me.. even had a bill as the tennent could not figure out how to turn the boiler on after she forgot to put gas on her gas card

[amir_j]

muffinmenace said:

Hi Guys,

I'm not looking for definitive legal advice but more what to do; My central heating stopped working on the 23rd, left a voice mail with the landlord, said he'd send someone round. Nothing till the 27th, he hit a motor with a screwdriver, said he'd be back in a hour. Never saw him again. Just had a text off the landlord who says he's struggling to get the information required by the repair man to him due to him being in Majorca or something.

I called the CAB but they said I'd have to make an appointment as they can't really talk about legal advice over the phone, and I'm mad busy with work I doubt I could get the time off.

My question is this. I pay £450 a month, divided by the days is roughly £15 a day. Can I get away with withholding rent for each days it's been effected? I feel that it is totally unacceptable (and a breach of contract), it went off last year for two weeks and I went down with Flu and Tonsillitis but I payed up. this year I purchased a new electric radiator and I've been surviving. What's the worst that can happen, he gives me notice?

Thanks

call thee council's housing dept ASAP- it is a legal duty for the landlord to maintain water & heating. The council will take this up and order him to comply within x amount of days.

Also document everything and consider reasonable small claims court compensation at some point.

[Piglet]

You need to check whether your tenancy agreement allows you to withhold rent. It probably doesn't.

I would write & text your LL telling him that the problem has not been resolved and that you feel that you have been more than patient and that if he can't tell you when it will be fixed or if that date isn't within the next few days then you will arrange for the repairs to be carried out at your cost and you will with hold the rent to balance this. He'll have a hissy fit but providing you have given him due warning (and you can prove it) then he's going to have a problem doing anything about it. I would also perhaps find out how much it is costing you to run the electric heater and bill him for that as well.

Oh BTW - you don't get flu (or a cold) by being cold so don't discredit your argument with something like that - it's a virus you catch it from other people....

[Wings]

Davel said:

As a Landlord, I'm horrified at his lack of action.

Morally, if not legally, he should have sent someone else round to make sure that you weren't left without heating or provided a temporary alternative.

At the very least, he should compensate you for your inconvenience.

You can't legally withold rent but you should be able to get some allowance for his/her failure to get this sorted promptly.

Christmas, and the shut down to January 4th, is a nightmare period for boiler breakdown for landlords. As a landlord myself I would in a similar situation ensure the tenant/s had alternative heating.

The tenant can either seek some financial compensation from the landlord, or/and point out to the landlord that unless the repair is carried out within a reasonable period, the tenant will instruct repairs, and deduct the costs of those same repairs from their next rental payment.

[Buffie]

Hi

I'm a commercial management surveyor so this is slightly out of my expertise (i.e. it's resi!), but personally, I would not withhold rent. It's a big no no.

Under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 (presume your lease is less than 7 yrs) the landlord is generally responsible for these repairs.

If there is a dispute and he doesn't do the works after telling him you can:

1. Sue him and seek dammages;
2. As someone said above, speak to the local Council and ask them to do a Health and Safety assessment under the Housing Act 2004.

Depending on the severity of the breach the council can order the landlord to do the works or even prohibit the use of the building.. in which case you'll have to find alt accomodation!!

You could look at doing the work yourself and deducting this from the rent you pay but I would seek advice prior to doing this as if it's the same as commercial, there are certain procedures to follow.

HTH

Louise

[Piglet]

Buffie said:

I would not withhold rent. It's a big no no.

It doesn't half focus the Landlord's attention though! It may be in breach of the AST but with fair warning and for good reason no Court is likely to penalise a tenant who does this.

I would do this with a positive spin "I managed to find someone to fix it so I've saved you the bother of sorting it, no need to pay me now, I'll just take it off the rent"

[muffinmenace]

Thank you all for the informative replies, very useful and in hindsight you're right. Going to the council isn't very useful as the guys not in the country, if they condemn it, where do I go. I see no benefit for me personally.

I'll portray my feeling on the matter when I see him next and see if we can work something out. Going to court seems like a faff for £200.

Thanks again

[Wings]

Piglet said:

Buffie said:

I would not withhold rent. It's a big no no.

It doesn't half focus the Landlord's attention though! It may be in breach of the AST but with fair warning and for good reason no Court is likely to penalise a tenant who does this.

I would do this with a positive spin "I managed to find someone to fix it so I've saved you the bother of sorting it, no need to pay me now, I'll just take it off the rent"

Piglet, please take into account that many of us have only just return to work after a long Christmas break, the same will also apply to plumbers. Had the delay been any other time of the year, then the delay would be unreasonable, and the tenant then could commission their own plumber to do the repair works.

In view of both safety and liability issues, I would strongly advise the OP to first be asserted with his landlord, before the OP commissions an unknown plumber to do the work.

[Piglet]

Wings said:

Piglet said:

Buffie said:

I would not withhold rent. It's a big no no.

It doesn't half focus the Landlord's attention though! It may be in breach of the AST but with fair warning and for good reason no Court is likely to penalise a tenant who does this.

I would do this with a positive spin "I managed to find someone to fix it so I've saved you the bother of sorting it, no need to pay me now, I'll just take it off the rent"

Piglet, please take into account that many of us have only just return to work after a long Christmas break, the same will also apply to plumbers. Had the delay been any other time of the year, then the delay would be unreasonable, and the tenant then could commission their own plumber to do the repair works.

In view of both safety and liability issues, I would strongly advise the OP to first be asserted with his landlord, before the OP commissions an unknown plumber to do the work.

Yep absolutely, that's why I say "fair warning and good reason" (or whatever it was I said). I've been both Landlord and Tenant and I'm still a tenant now for part of the week.

When I was letting I stumped up for a British Gas contract so that my tenant could always get someone out whatever day of the week if the heating/hot water failed - I felt that was the right approach. I appreciate that this isn't practicable for a larger scale Landlord.

From your posts previously you come across as a good landlord and as you say you'd have sorted alternative heating etc if you couldn't get a plumber. There are plenty of LL's who don't bother with the niceties and don't care that their tenants are freezing their nuts off over Christmas and New Year. It's not a huge amount of consolation that it's the festive season and no plumbers are available if you've got ice on the inside of your windows and on the end of your nose!

I reckon I could have got a plumber out over the Christmas period if I'd needed one, granted it would be more expensive but if the OP's LL had really wanted to sort this I think he could have - albeit that it's a bit tricky from Maderia or wherever he was.

[amir_j]

muffinmenace said:

Going to the council isn't very useful as the guys not in the country, if they condemn it, where do I go. I see no benefit for me personally.

Dude, stop assuming and go to the f'in council.

They have the power to undertake the repairs themselves and then go after the landlord- if he is out of the country thats not YOUR problem, he has a duty to always support his tenant.

Like I said above, heating and water is a fundamental right of a tenant and it is illegal for this not be done in a reasonable time. Listen to me and go/call/email the council asap. Look on their site for the direct no for the department.

and a FYI- witholding rent process is explained by Shelter- read this and if you follow you are fine:
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repairs_a...

Always keep stuff in writing/email and as a last resort phone records so you have facts to back stuff up.

[amir_j]

What is the procedure?
You must follow a specific procedure if you want to pay for repairs and take the cost out of your rent. Otherwise, your landlord can evict you:

Step 1: report the repairs in writing and allow time for them to be done.
Step 2: write to your landlord again, saying that you will do the work yourself and take the costs out of your rent unless the repairs are done within a certain time (eg. two weeks). Keep a copy of your letter. See sample letter 1.
Step 3: once this time has passed, get three quotes for the work from reliable contractors (eg. plumbers or builders)
Step 4: send the quotes to your landlord with a letter explaining that you'll go ahead with the cheapest quote unless your landlord arranges for the repairs to be done within a certain time (eg. two more weeks). See sample letter 2.
Step 5: once this time has passed, if your landlord hasn't responded, arrange for the work to be done by the company that gave the cheapest quote
Step 6 : pay for the work yourself and send a copy of the receipt to your landlord, asking them to refund the money. See sample letter 3.
Step 7 : if your landlord doesn't refund the money, write and confirm that you will deduct the money from your future rent. Explain exactly when deductions will start and how long you will withhold rent for. See sample letter 4.
Be sure to keep copies of all correspondence, and keep accurate records of what you have paid and when.

[theboss]

Wings said:

Piglet said:

Buffie said:

I would not withhold rent. It's a big no no.

It doesn't half focus the Landlord's attention though! It may be in breach of the AST but with fair warning and for good reason no Court is likely to penalise a tenant who does this.

I would do this with a positive spin "I managed to find someone to fix it so I've saved you the bother of sorting it, no need to pay me now, I'll just take it off the rent"

Piglet, please take into account that many of us have only just return to work after a long Christmas break, the same will also apply to plumbers. Had the delay been any other time of the year, then the delay would be unreasonable, and the tenant then could commission their own plumber to do the repair works.

In view of both safety and liability issues, I would strongly advise the OP to first be asserted with his landlord, before the OP commissions an unknown plumber to do the work.

Please also take into account that the tenant in question has been shivering his tits off for nearly two weeks whilst the landlord has been enjoying his 'long Christmas break'.

A few bank holidays don't relieve the landlord of his obligations and the delay is completely unreasonable irrespective of the fact that its been Christmas.

OP I'd suggest doing as has been suggested by a previous poster, inform the landlord politely he has 24 hours to fix the heating or you take matters into your own hands and deduct the cost from the rent. The priority here is getting the house warm not dicking about with CAB, courts or kindly granting the LL as much more time as he wants.

[john_p]

amir_j said:

What is the procedure?
You must follow a specific procedure if you want to pay for repairs and take the cost out of your rent. Otherwise, your landlord can evict you:

Step 1: report the repairs in writing and allow time for them to be done. 1 week
Step 2: write to your landlord again, saying that you will do the work yourself and take the costs out of your rent unless the repairs are done within a certain time (eg. two weeks). Keep a copy of your letter. See sample letter 1. 3 weeks total
Step 3: once this time has passed, get three quotes for the work from reliable contractors (eg. plumbers or builders) 4 weeks total
Step 4: send the quotes to your landlord with a letter explaining that you'll go ahead with the cheapest quote unless your landlord arranges for the repairs to be done within a certain time (eg. two more weeks). See sample letter 2. 6 weeks total
Step 5: once this time has passed, if your landlord hasn't responded, arrange for the work to be done by the company that gave the cheapest quote 7 weeks total if you haven't already died of hypothermia

Who writes this stuff?

[muffinmenace]

john_p said:

amir_j said:

What is the procedure?
You must follow a specific procedure if you want to pay for repairs and take the cost out of your rent. Otherwise, your landlord can evict you:

Step 1: report the repairs in writing and allow time for them to be done. 1 week
Step 2: write to your landlord again, saying that you will do the work yourself and take the costs out of your rent unless the repairs are done within a certain time (eg. two weeks). Keep a copy of your letter. See sample letter 1. 3 weeks total
Step 3: once this time has passed, get three quotes for the work from reliable contractors (eg. plumbers or builders) 4 weeks total
Step 4: send the quotes to your landlord with a letter explaining that you'll go ahead with the cheapest quote unless your landlord arranges for the repairs to be done within a certain time (eg. two more weeks). See sample letter 2. 6 weeks total
Step 5: once this time has passed, if your landlord hasn't responded, arrange for the work to be done by the company that gave the cheapest quote 7 weeks total if you haven't already died of hypothermia

Who writes this stuff?

Balls to that, I've given him 24 hours or I'm staying in a hotel and brining someone in and billing through rent. It was fking freezing last night