Building Regs, Electricians, Part P Certification?
Discussion
I'm planning on having some building work done and have had some ridiculous quotes for electrical work. I've always done this myself in the past, now I'm being told £500 for a fusebox and £90 for a halogen spotlight. +VAT of course.
If I don't want to sell the house in the foreseeable future, do I need certification? Surely there's no law against DIY electrical work? Anyone on PH been through this recently?
If I don't want to sell the house in the foreseeable future, do I need certification? Surely there's no law against DIY electrical work? Anyone on PH been through this recently?
I would be interested in this too. As far as I can tell its cheaper to get on with it yourself and then just take out indemnity insurance should you ever sell.
I don't think there are any Part P "enforcers" and I can find little evidence that anyone has had any more then a telling off for not going though building control etc
I don't think there are any Part P "enforcers" and I can find little evidence that anyone has had any more then a telling off for not going though building control etc
Edited by eddie1980 on Sunday 31st January 08:51
The part P stuff is a right pain, it was put in place with all good intentions but now seems to be a cash cow for electricians. I am having to pay £35 (+ travelling etc. etc. etc.) an hour to get this stuff done now, my customers wince when I tell them how much a couple of downlighters would be!!
If its so illegal why do B&Q et al sell the cable and fittings? maybe thats the next stage!!
My advice would be to get a few quotes and take it on the nose, but make sure you get the documentation afterwards. there are some scammers out there with stickers on their vans. There maybe no enforcers at the moment, but i find the customers have had the fear of god put in them about this. So they tend to insist, I will not do any electrical work now even though I have done it for 25 years.
If its so illegal why do B&Q et al sell the cable and fittings? maybe thats the next stage!!
My advice would be to get a few quotes and take it on the nose, but make sure you get the documentation afterwards. there are some scammers out there with stickers on their vans. There maybe no enforcers at the moment, but i find the customers have had the fear of god put in them about this. So they tend to insist, I will not do any electrical work now even though I have done it for 25 years.
Edited by andrewws on Sunday 31st January 09:30
-Pete- said:
I'm planning on having some building work done and have had some ridiculous quotes for electrical work. I've always done this myself in the past, now I'm being told £500 for a fusebox and £90 for a halogen spotlight. +VAT of course.
If I don't want to sell the house in the foreseeable future, do I need certification? Surely there's no law against DIY electrical work? Anyone on PH been through this recently?
I don't think £90 is bad for a 500w spotlight fitted by a professional - parts £15-20 for a decent spot with a fused switch and cable, crawl in loft, run cables, up ladders outside - could be a couple of hours work. Plus filling in the paperwork If I don't want to sell the house in the foreseeable future, do I need certification? Surely there's no law against DIY electrical work? Anyone on PH been through this recently?
Me? DIY and to hell with it.
If they ever planned to restrict sales of electrical components in B&Q, 'they' should sure as hell get rid of the gas fittings and boilers a damn sight quicker.
http://www.partp.co.uk/consumer/consumer_doesit.as...
You may not have to pay for the light unless it's on a new spur, outside, in the kitchen or bathroom.
I'm no electrician but just went into this when I wanted to add a few sockets. I wouldn't do the fuse board but you can do a fair bit inside without even broaching breaking the rules question.
The only minor problem is selling. Despite the fact the work doesn't need approval you may have issue with conveyancers who don't know the rules or if they have changed. I intend to interpret the 'has any electrical work been completed?' question as 'has any work been completed we need certificates for?'. A sparky should be able to give you a minor works certificate rather than a part P if it is something you could have done alone. I guess it depends how much you want to declare.
You may not have to pay for the light unless it's on a new spur, outside, in the kitchen or bathroom.
I'm no electrician but just went into this when I wanted to add a few sockets. I wouldn't do the fuse board but you can do a fair bit inside without even broaching breaking the rules question.
The only minor problem is selling. Despite the fact the work doesn't need approval you may have issue with conveyancers who don't know the rules or if they have changed. I intend to interpret the 'has any electrical work been completed?' question as 'has any work been completed we need certificates for?'. A sparky should be able to give you a minor works certificate rather than a part P if it is something you could have done alone. I guess it depends how much you want to declare.
I'd certainly pay for a consumer unit unless you're completely competant in installing one yourself... there are a lot of potential pitfalls to doing it yourself and when you sell, it may be obvious when it's been done (as there are different editions (currently I think on 18) You're right though - they're only about £80 and a good guy should do within a day or even half day, so it's a bit of a swizz. If you do it yourself though, there's a fire and it's traced back to faulty wiring you've done, it's likely your home insurance wont pay up, so for that peace of mind alone I'd get it done.
For spotlights, it's more tempting to do it yourself. At the end of the day, you don't want unsafe wiring or an installation so again, be sure you're happy that you can do it safely and competently.
In reality at sale time you'll have to confirm if you've had any wiring work done since you've owned the property and until then, I can't imagine how you'd ever get caught, unless say something went wrong. The council BCOs I've spoken to aren't terribly clued up on exactly what needs part P certification anyway.
For spotlights, it's more tempting to do it yourself. At the end of the day, you don't want unsafe wiring or an installation so again, be sure you're happy that you can do it safely and competently.
In reality at sale time you'll have to confirm if you've had any wiring work done since you've owned the property and until then, I can't imagine how you'd ever get caught, unless say something went wrong. The council BCOs I've spoken to aren't terribly clued up on exactly what needs part P certification anyway.
For notifiable work - i.e anything that requires building control involvement you have 2 options:
1. pay a part p qualified electrican to carry out the work, who will then certificate it for you.
2. You contact your building control officer and tell him you will be carrying out the work, depending on the nature of the work, he will arrange for periodic inspections by a qualified individual. For a full re-wire he may insist on inspections before 2nd fix, then testing before final connections etc... From what i recall you have to pay a little more on the original building control fee, but the inspections are all free.
I'd do everyting by the book, part p is online and well worth a read if you're contemplating doing the work yourself. A guy at work had a small fire in his new extension and you can guess the insurance assessors first question to him....
1. pay a part p qualified electrican to carry out the work, who will then certificate it for you.
2. You contact your building control officer and tell him you will be carrying out the work, depending on the nature of the work, he will arrange for periodic inspections by a qualified individual. For a full re-wire he may insist on inspections before 2nd fix, then testing before final connections etc... From what i recall you have to pay a little more on the original building control fee, but the inspections are all free.
I'd do everyting by the book, part p is online and well worth a read if you're contemplating doing the work yourself. A guy at work had a small fire in his new extension and you can guess the insurance assessors first question to him....
ks. No insurance company states anywhere in their cover that a property must have a Part P Certificate for the electrical installation. I have a traditional fusebox with plug-in MCB's.
What I find difficult to deal with, as a part of my building extension, is my builder's electrician suggesting £90 per halogen spot etc. I have been told to budget a few thousand pounds for electrical work, on a 35m2 extension. The electrician must be charging £250/day which I find quite offensive.
The problem is, I can't necessarily be there at the right time, on the right day, to do the work myself. Also, I have no intention of selling this house in the next 20 years, so I don't care about any certificates.
The existing wiring in my 1980's house is not perfect, upstairs and downstairs ring mains connected, apparently the earth bonding is not sufficient, etc.
Ideally, I'd like an old-fashioned electrician, willing to do the job for £100/day, what do I need certificates for?
I heard a rumour that plumbing is going to be subject to building regs next.
What next? Cutting the grass?
What I find difficult to deal with, as a part of my building extension, is my builder's electrician suggesting £90 per halogen spot etc. I have been told to budget a few thousand pounds for electrical work, on a 35m2 extension. The electrician must be charging £250/day which I find quite offensive.
The problem is, I can't necessarily be there at the right time, on the right day, to do the work myself. Also, I have no intention of selling this house in the next 20 years, so I don't care about any certificates.
The existing wiring in my 1980's house is not perfect, upstairs and downstairs ring mains connected, apparently the earth bonding is not sufficient, etc.
Ideally, I'd like an old-fashioned electrician, willing to do the job for £100/day, what do I need certificates for?
I heard a rumour that plumbing is going to be subject to building regs next.
What next? Cutting the grass?
Edited by -Pete- on Sunday 31st January 21:51
-Pete- said:
I have a traditional fusebox with plug-in MCB's.
What I find difficult to deal with, as a part of my building extension, is my builder's electrician suggesting £90 per halogen spot etc. I have been told to budget a few thousand pounds for electrical work, on a 35m2 extension. The electrician must be charging £250/day which I find quite offensive.
The problem is, I can't necessarily be there at the right time, on the right day, to do the work myself. Also, I have no intention of selling this house in the next 20 years, so I don't care about any certificates.
The existing wiring in my 1980's house is not perfect, upstairs and downstairs ring mains connected, apparently the earth bonding is not sufficient, etc.
Ideally, I'd like an old-fashioned electrician, willing to do the job for £100/day, what do I need certificates for?
I heard a rumour that plumbing is going to be subject to building regs next.
What next? Cutting the grass?
What I find difficult to deal with, as a part of my building extension, is my builder's electrician suggesting £90 per halogen spot etc. I have been told to budget a few thousand pounds for electrical work, on a 35m2 extension. The electrician must be charging £250/day which I find quite offensive.
The problem is, I can't necessarily be there at the right time, on the right day, to do the work myself. Also, I have no intention of selling this house in the next 20 years, so I don't care about any certificates.
The existing wiring in my 1980's house is not perfect, upstairs and downstairs ring mains connected, apparently the earth bonding is not sufficient, etc.
Ideally, I'd like an old-fashioned electrician, willing to do the job for £100/day, what do I need certificates for?
I heard a rumour that plumbing is going to be subject to building regs next.
What next? Cutting the grass?
Edited by -Pete- on Sunday 31st January 21:51
...No trade works for £100 a day!. £200-£250 is the going rate. Its continually bloody expensive to be a qualified spark...and that's before you can get out and start earning.When did you start the extension?
I was told by the BCO who came round on the last inspection (I don't have it in writing yet) that as the approval for my extension was granted before part P came in (I'm still working on the extension....don't ask!) then I don't need part P certification, I can just get on with it.
I will get this in writing first though as I'm at 1st fix stage now.
I was told by the BCO who came round on the last inspection (I don't have it in writing yet) that as the approval for my extension was granted before part P came in (I'm still working on the extension....don't ask!) then I don't need part P certification, I can just get on with it.
I will get this in writing first though as I'm at 1st fix stage now.
Spudler said:
...No trade works for £100 a day!. £200-£250 is the going rate. Its continually bloody expensive to be a qualified spark...and that's before you can get out and start earning.Edited by -Pete- on Sunday 31st January 23:29
Some work is now notifiable, by law. Anyone can make the notification. I'm not entirely sure why a DIYer would want to.
If you know what you're doing, just break the law. If you've no lights in the living room, and a choice between paying a pro or eating dinner, who exactly is going to eat their dinner in the dark, because of the law?
I guess the emphasis is on the idea that the law might come and get you if your actions are thought cause anyone else harm, irrespective of competence.
I think that if the law makes it too expensive to do things properly, the reality is that more people will do things improperly.
I think this is something that the big machine of government completely fails to understand. I suppose we'll just have to learn the hard way.
Clearly, in practical terms, it's way cheaper to have the whole house certified in one go when you sell, than ever it is to have each bit certified as you change things. Obviously it's more expensive if it's perceived by the inspector that something is not right. Worse still if something actually goes wildly wrong.
There must be millions of TNCS systems out there with rewireable fuses and no RCD. If you tried to sell people the upgrade in safety at the going rate, no-one would buy in. The components are cheap, but the labour is expensive. If you push the price of safety up, then there is less safety.
I suppose that leaves the question; "Is it the equipment or the installation, or both that make the safety?"
If you know what you're doing, just break the law. If you've no lights in the living room, and a choice between paying a pro or eating dinner, who exactly is going to eat their dinner in the dark, because of the law?
I guess the emphasis is on the idea that the law might come and get you if your actions are thought cause anyone else harm, irrespective of competence.
I think that if the law makes it too expensive to do things properly, the reality is that more people will do things improperly.
I think this is something that the big machine of government completely fails to understand. I suppose we'll just have to learn the hard way.
Clearly, in practical terms, it's way cheaper to have the whole house certified in one go when you sell, than ever it is to have each bit certified as you change things. Obviously it's more expensive if it's perceived by the inspector that something is not right. Worse still if something actually goes wildly wrong.
There must be millions of TNCS systems out there with rewireable fuses and no RCD. If you tried to sell people the upgrade in safety at the going rate, no-one would buy in. The components are cheap, but the labour is expensive. If you push the price of safety up, then there is less safety.
I suppose that leaves the question; "Is it the equipment or the installation, or both that make the safety?"
Edited by dilbert on Monday 1st February 11:32
-Pete- said:
Spudler said:
...No trade works for £100 a day!. £200-£250 is the going rate. Its continually bloody expensive to be a qualified spark...and that's before you can get out and start earning.If a self-employed person, perhaps his own limited company, has a turnover of £50-60K per year, then he's actually netting a fraction of that by the time all his costs have been taken out.
A good friend of mine used to do it and he was busy, but went back to being an employed industrial electrician as he was making the same money doing that but it was more guaranteed every week and he didn't have the hassle of running his own business.
Deva Link said:
A good friend of mine used to do it and he was busy, but went back to being an employed industrial electrician as he was making the same money doing that but it was more guaranteed every week and he didn't have the hassle of running his own business.
The 'law' is an ass. As are the people who are currently inventing it.A self-employed tradesman has to jump through so many hoops and deal with so much paperwork, it is now hardly worth it, unless they charge through the nose. And don't get me started on actually employing other people, as my OH does - it's now an absolute minefield in an office-based industry, never mind working on other peoples property, up ladders, with sharp tools, and with electricity.
dilbert said:
I think that if the law makes it too expensive to do things properly, the reality is that more people will do things improperly.
I think this is something that the big machine of government completely fails to understand.
I think this is something that the big machine of government completely fails to understand.
I got a timeserved sparky to fit our new rcd-equipped board, swapping out the old rewireable one. £100 cash for an afternoon, which was fair enough, but no paperwork as he's not Part P qualified. Whoops
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