Boiler problem - Sales of Goods Act?
Discussion
Hiya,
We've had a Ideal Isar boiler for the last 3 1/2 years, and it's just gone pop (error code L9), which is an error code that seems to be due to a design fault with the pcb. There is also anecdotal evidence on the tinternet that Ideal re-designed the internals due to this issue.
I've just spoken with BG, who supplied the boiler, and they've stated that in order to send an engineer to diagnose, they're going to charge me £200. Only if their own engineer states that it's a design issue will they contemplate repair/replacement under the Sales of Goods Act.
Is this reasonable? Should a boiler last more than 3 1/2 years?
I'm currently thinking of getting an independent engineer to diagnose the fault, then aim to get this refunded by BG. Is this the correct course of action?
Help would be gratefully received, as we've no hot water or heating, and with kids aged 4 and 2, it's not exactly ideal(!)...
Sam
We've had a Ideal Isar boiler for the last 3 1/2 years, and it's just gone pop (error code L9), which is an error code that seems to be due to a design fault with the pcb. There is also anecdotal evidence on the tinternet that Ideal re-designed the internals due to this issue.
I've just spoken with BG, who supplied the boiler, and they've stated that in order to send an engineer to diagnose, they're going to charge me £200. Only if their own engineer states that it's a design issue will they contemplate repair/replacement under the Sales of Goods Act.
Is this reasonable? Should a boiler last more than 3 1/2 years?
I'm currently thinking of getting an independent engineer to diagnose the fault, then aim to get this refunded by BG. Is this the correct course of action?
Help would be gratefully received, as we've no hot water or heating, and with kids aged 4 and 2, it's not exactly ideal(!)...
Sam
It is reasonable if they refund you that 200 quid.
I think it is reasonable to expect a boiler to last over 3.5 years.
If they are pulling a fast one when they come to visit then it might be worth getting in an independant expert.
BTW this piece of legislation may cover it if you paid them to install a boiler and it was provided as aprt of the service, covers the same kind of stuff as SOGA for goods provided in the course of a service - http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-she...
edit - you have a strong case if you can show the fault was there to start with of course
I think it is reasonable to expect a boiler to last over 3.5 years.
If they are pulling a fast one when they come to visit then it might be worth getting in an independant expert.
BTW this piece of legislation may cover it if you paid them to install a boiler and it was provided as aprt of the service, covers the same kind of stuff as SOGA for goods provided in the course of a service - http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-she...
edit - you have a strong case if you can show the fault was there to start with of course
Edited by Mojooo on Monday 22 February 19:07
Have a wade through this: www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1979/cu...
Mojooo said:
It is reasonable if they refund you that 200 quid.
I think it is reasonable to expect a boiler to last over 3.5 years.
If they are pulling a fast one when they come to visit then it might be worth getting in an independant expert.
BTW this piece of legislation may cover it if you paid them to install a boiler and it was provided as aprt of the service, covers the same kind of stuff as SOGA for goods provided in the course of a service - http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-she...
edit - you have a strong case if you can show the fault was there to start with of course
The problem I have is that I spend the £200, it's IMO very likely that the BG engineer finds that BG are not eligible, and so I'm out of pocket by £200 until I spend out again on an independent engineer to counter BG's claim.I think it is reasonable to expect a boiler to last over 3.5 years.
If they are pulling a fast one when they come to visit then it might be worth getting in an independant expert.
BTW this piece of legislation may cover it if you paid them to install a boiler and it was provided as aprt of the service, covers the same kind of stuff as SOGA for goods provided in the course of a service - http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-she...
edit - you have a strong case if you can show the fault was there to start with of course
Edited by Mojooo on Monday 22 February 19:07
At the moment I simply cannot afford to be out of pocket by at least £200 whilst this gets sorted....
It terms of proving a known fault, do a google search for 'Ideal Isar boiler issues'.... Lots and lots of information coming up.
Thanks v. much for the link to the other Act that would appear to apply.
Sam
Can you not call out a heating engineer and tell them to give you a quote of what needs fixing and why? that way you will be better informed in deciding wherer to call the BG guy.
ultimatley you will have to take them to court to get back any misspent £200 so it might be a risk you are willing or unwilling to take.
ultimatley you will have to take them to court to get back any misspent £200 so it might be a risk you are willing or unwilling to take.
Mojooo said:
Can you not call out a heating engineer and tell them to give you a quote of what needs fixing and why? that way you will be better informed in deciding wherer to call the BG guy.
ultimatley you will have to take them to court to get back any misspent £200 so it might be a risk you are willing or unwilling to take.
Feel that this would be a tad out of order, as I have no intention of using their services to repair the boiler - the fault code coming up is known to be caused by the design issue, so I am as certain as I can be that this is covered by the SoGA, and the SoGaS act...ultimatley you will have to take them to court to get back any misspent £200 so it might be a risk you are willing or unwilling to take.
Although I am willing to pay an independent engineer a reasonable sum (likely to be far less than £200) to diagnose and write a report on the issue, then claim this back against BG once they admit liability....
I suspect the chance of a BG engineeer finding anything wrong with a BG-installed boiler is neglible.
I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 22 February 20:39
Simpo Two said:
I suspect the chance of a BG engineeer finding anything wrong with a BG-installed boiler is neglible.
I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
I'm not going to get the indy to repair it, merely create a report confirming that the issue is due to a known design error (which I'll also get the manufacturer to confirm - they seem to have in the past). This will then be my ammo against BG....I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 22 February 20:39
Hopefully!
If BG really drag their heels, I'll pay for an indy to fix it, then push for a replacement without the design fault through the small claims court....
Sway said:
I'm not going to get the indy to repair it, merely create a report confirming that the issue is due to a known design error (which I'll also get the manufacturer to confirm - they seem to have in the past). This will then be my ammo against BG....
Hopefully!
If BG really drag their heels, I'll pay for an indy to fix it, then push for a replacement without the design fault through the small claims court....
If boilers are anything like mattresses, you may find that the 'indy' has to be approved by a certified body before they'll listen - for all they know it's a mate of yours. You might win against BG but be prepared for a long and hard fight - like all grasping corporations thay'll try every trick to beat you. Your best hope is to make yourself such a noxious PITA that they stump up to get rid of you.Hopefully!
If BG really drag their heels, I'll pay for an indy to fix it, then push for a replacement without the design fault through the small claims court....
It might be a good investment of your time to see your local CAB and take them all the paperwork. Only fight battles you can win. Good luck.
Simpo Two said:
Sway said:
I'm not going to get the indy to repair it, merely create a report confirming that the issue is due to a known design error (which I'll also get the manufacturer to confirm - they seem to have in the past). This will then be my ammo against BG....
Hopefully!
If BG really drag their heels, I'll pay for an indy to fix it, then push for a replacement without the design fault through the small claims court....
If boilers are anything like mattresses, you may find that the 'indy' has to be approved by a certified body before they'll listen - for all they know it's a mate of yours. You might win against BG but be prepared for a long and hard fight - like all grasping corporations thay'll try every trick to beat you. Your best hope is to make yourself such a noxious PITA that they stump up to get rid of you.Hopefully!
If BG really drag their heels, I'll pay for an indy to fix it, then push for a replacement without the design fault through the small claims court....
It might be a good investment of your time to see your local CAB and take them all the paperwork. Only fight battles you can win. Good luck.
Not sure how much work is involved in a small claims case, but I'm aware that it can be done for around £50, and self represented so just a matter of time and effort...
Hoping that I can create a large enough body of evidence that someone relatively high up in BG realises that it will cost them more using corporate lawyers and almost definate loss than it will to accept liability and just replace the boiler....
If anyone has contact details for a senior manager at BG, it would be greatly appreciated..
Sway said:
Simpo Two said:
I suspect the chance of a BG engineeer finding anything wrong with a BG-installed boiler is neglible.
I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
I'm not going to get the indy to repair it, merely create a report confirming that the issue is due to a known design error (which I'll also get the manufacturer to confirm - they seem to have in the past). This will then be my ammo against BG....I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 22 February 20:39
Hopefully!
If BG really drag their heels, I'll pay for an indy to fix it, then push for a replacement without the design fault through the small claims court....
I'd get it repaired asap & then wade into battle (esp with young kide & freezing temps outside)
CO2000 said:
Sway said:
Simpo Two said:
I suspect the chance of a BG engineeer finding anything wrong with a BG-installed boiler is neglible.
I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
I'm not going to get the indy to repair it, merely create a report confirming that the issue is due to a known design error (which I'll also get the manufacturer to confirm - they seem to have in the past). This will then be my ammo against BG....I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 22 February 20:39
Hopefully!
If BG really drag their heels, I'll pay for an indy to fix it, then push for a replacement without the design fault through the small claims court....
I'd get it repaired asap & then wade into battle (esp with young kide & freezing temps outside)
I'm merely going to get a corgi registered engineer who doesn't work for BG to give me a report - this is now booked for tomorrow hopefully.
Then I'll make one more call to BG before sending a large letter with as much evidence regarding the fault direct to BG's MD. The boiler will have been repaired, but seeing as it's likely that it will fail again, I'll push for a replacement from BG through the small claims court....
Hopefully, if I can get enough evidence through to the MD, he'll realise that it will cost them more money to use their corporate lawyers to defend a losing case in small claims than it will to just get the replacement done.
I know that this is unlikely, however, by going direct to the MD, hopefully a person in such a position should have a realistic enough view to recognise a losing case and roll before they're pushed...
Well Sleepmasters was like the Nazi Westwall - even the Customer Services Manager is protected by a layer of trained girlies who fend off all but the most determined punters. And the MD? 'We don't give out fist names sir'. Watch them burrow into the cracks like earwigs when you turn the light on. And BG will get 100 people like you trying to break in every day. 'Dear (copy and paste) sorry to hear.. unfortunately we cannot...'
That said, I hope that BG are slightly better than Sleepmasters, in that perhaps they will put a customer ahead of money. Keep us posted!
That said, I hope that BG are slightly better than Sleepmasters, in that perhaps they will put a customer ahead of money. Keep us posted!
Your assuming the worst, if its as common as you think then more likely that the guy turns up and says 'yeh, ive had loads doing this, ill fit a new PCB'
I work in the TV industry and i know that its not in the manufacturers interest to be taken to the small claims court every 5 mins over stupid faults, certain manufacturers even supply new screens (circa £800) FOC because they didnt last 5 years and people moan about it.
We also take a small charge (£50) bacically to cover our costs, you would be suprised how many times im called out to a dead set only to find the batteries in the SKY remote control have gone flat or just a retune. If the equipment we supplied is faulty then they get a refund, if its something else none related then they dont get a refund.
In short, give them a go, you may be suprised.
I work in the TV industry and i know that its not in the manufacturers interest to be taken to the small claims court every 5 mins over stupid faults, certain manufacturers even supply new screens (circa £800) FOC because they didnt last 5 years and people moan about it.
We also take a small charge (£50) bacically to cover our costs, you would be suprised how many times im called out to a dead set only to find the batteries in the SKY remote control have gone flat or just a retune. If the equipment we supplied is faulty then they get a refund, if its something else none related then they dont get a refund.
In short, give them a go, you may be suprised.
Sway said:
CO2000 said:
Sway said:
Simpo Two said:
I suspect the chance of a BG engineeer finding anything wrong with a BG-installed boiler is neglible.
I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
I'm not going to get the indy to repair it, merely create a report confirming that the issue is due to a known design error (which I'll also get the manufacturer to confirm - they seem to have in the past). This will then be my ammo against BG....I recently had a problem with a Sleepmasters mattress and the 'independent' report from a supposedly 'independent' FIRA technician was as bent as a three pound note - blatantly written to evade all responsibility. His biggest mistake was to make it clear what his brief really was.
Add BG to that equation and prepare to get even more stitched up.
ETA: However to play the legal game you have to let BG have a go at fixing it. If you pay an indy £50 to sort it you'll undermine your case. In your position I think I'd pay the indy, take the hit and have done with it - unless you enjoy battling corporations...
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 22 February 20:39
Hopefully!
If BG really drag their heels, I'll pay for an indy to fix it, then push for a replacement without the design fault through the small claims court....
I'd get it repaired asap & then wade into battle (esp with young kide & freezing temps outside)
I'm merely going to get a corgi registered engineer who doesn't work for BG to give me a report - this is now booked for tomorrow hopefully.
Then I'll make one more call to BG before sending a large letter with as much evidence regarding the fault direct to BG's MD. The boiler will have been repaired, but seeing as it's likely that it will fail again, I'll push for a replacement from BG through the small claims court....
Hopefully, if I can get enough evidence through to the MD, he'll realise that it will cost them more money to use their corporate lawyers to defend a losing case in small claims than it will to just get the replacement done.
I know that this is unlikely, however, by going direct to the MD, hopefully a person in such a position should have a realistic enough view to recognise a losing case and roll before they're pushed...
Just spoken with the manufacturer, apparently two seperate faults have occurred at exactly the same time, and yet it isn't a design issue!
Apparently, fault L9 only occurs due to overheating, and that I need to adjust the pressure (which, at 0.25 bar is way under the 1-1.5bar it should be). However, when I manually adjusted the pressure to the correct value, water started pissing out of the boiler, this apparently is unrelated....
When I asked what odds in the FMEA of the design were for two seperate, yet unrelated, faults occurring, I was told that that information was unavailable, and that I could not be put through to a design engineer.
Under Sales of Goods, and Supply of Goods and Services Acts, it is stated that my claim should be against the supplier, BG, not the manufacturer. If so, how should I proceed when there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the design is at fault, yet neither the supplier or the manufacturer are willing to admit this?
I'm assuming that an independent report from a heating engineer is unlikely to change thier minds.
Bearing in mind the requirement for a reasonable time period for resolution, the mountains of anecdotal evidence on the web, and the current ambient temperatures, is there any way I can force thier hand quicker? Is it worth getting Corgi themselves involved?
Apparently, fault L9 only occurs due to overheating, and that I need to adjust the pressure (which, at 0.25 bar is way under the 1-1.5bar it should be). However, when I manually adjusted the pressure to the correct value, water started pissing out of the boiler, this apparently is unrelated....
When I asked what odds in the FMEA of the design were for two seperate, yet unrelated, faults occurring, I was told that that information was unavailable, and that I could not be put through to a design engineer.
Under Sales of Goods, and Supply of Goods and Services Acts, it is stated that my claim should be against the supplier, BG, not the manufacturer. If so, how should I proceed when there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the design is at fault, yet neither the supplier or the manufacturer are willing to admit this?
I'm assuming that an independent report from a heating engineer is unlikely to change thier minds.
Bearing in mind the requirement for a reasonable time period for resolution, the mountains of anecdotal evidence on the web, and the current ambient temperatures, is there any way I can force thier hand quicker? Is it worth getting Corgi themselves involved?
Gas Safe (+Corgi) will not get involved unless it was installed unsafely AFAIK
I would give the INSTALLING coming a chance to fix it, if not get it fixed independantly and then taken them to small claims to recover the cost.
I think you need to find out if that £200 is reasonable or not to come out and look - call Consumer Direct?
I would give the INSTALLING coming a chance to fix it, if not get it fixed independantly and then taken them to small claims to recover the cost.
I think you need to find out if that £200 is reasonable or not to come out and look - call Consumer Direct?
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