Survey Problems - who deals with this?
Discussion
On the road to purchasing a property which we feel is 'in need of modernisation' (e.g. cosmetic plus re-plumbing/re-wiring) and have already taken this into consideration when making our offer.
However, the results of the Structural Survey have highlighted some additional problems with regard structural defects that require swift rectification, pricing the additional works at around £15,000.
We don't want to be insult the Vendor but as we were not (and could not have been) aware of the additional strutural work at the time of offering, our Solicitor has requested a contributory sum of £7,000 (or money off the purchase price) from the other side, highlighting the works will not improve the property, but merely deal with essential repairs. She also provided to them an extract of the Survey.
Now the EA has started hassling me for a full copy of the report and I have referred him to our Solicitor. Problem is I have just found out that our Solicitor went on holiday on Tuesday and is not due back until 28th June
I obviously do not want this dragging on for longer than is necessary so do I provide an extract of the Survey to the EA personally, or do I just sit tight and waiting for my Solicitor to come back from sunning herself?
However, the results of the Structural Survey have highlighted some additional problems with regard structural defects that require swift rectification, pricing the additional works at around £15,000.
We don't want to be insult the Vendor but as we were not (and could not have been) aware of the additional strutural work at the time of offering, our Solicitor has requested a contributory sum of £7,000 (or money off the purchase price) from the other side, highlighting the works will not improve the property, but merely deal with essential repairs. She also provided to them an extract of the Survey.
Now the EA has started hassling me for a full copy of the report and I have referred him to our Solicitor. Problem is I have just found out that our Solicitor went on holiday on Tuesday and is not due back until 28th June
I obviously do not want this dragging on for longer than is necessary so do I provide an extract of the Survey to the EA personally, or do I just sit tight and waiting for my Solicitor to come back from sunning herself?
Busamav said:
I would speak with the surveyor first to see if there are any restrictions on circulation of the full document.
I think that the answer lies hidden there. A Structural Survey in not what you would initially think. The structural element of a house, especially expensive repairs as in this case, needs to be done by a structural engineer. A Structural Survey is normally carried out by a surveyor; after the surveyor has identified a structural problem a Civil/Structural Engineer is normally called in to confirm the problem, identify its extend and recommend any works that may be necessary. If I were either buying or selling I'd want a Structural Engineer's report before agreeing to the spending of substantial amounts of money.How badly do you want the house? If you are keen to proceed then get a Structural Engineer's report ASAP. Maybe you can get the V's to contribute towards the cost of that.
So essentially what would have happened is after our Solicitor contacted the Vendor's solicitors, the Vendor may have rung the EA to ask their opinion(??) and that's why the EA wants more info? I presume then that it is normal for the EA to be involved in this kind of thing...
Also, the guy we used to do the Strutural/Buildings Survey is also a qualified Structural Engineer, which is why we chose him.
Also, the guy we used to do the Strutural/Buildings Survey is also a qualified Structural Engineer, which is why we chose him.
scirocco265 said:
Also, the guy we used to do the Strutural/Buildings Survey is also a qualified Structural Engineer, which is why we chose him.
Good move. Does the EA know this?Procedurally I think that you will have to deal with the EA. Normally it would be solicitor to solicitor but that's out until the 28th. (Their solicitor is prevented from talking to the other solicitor's client, ie you, directly under Law Society rules AFAIK.)
Coming from the otherside the EA and indeed the Vendor's solicitor would still need to check that you're renegotiation does or doesn't have validation.
I second checking with the writer to ensure that it's suitable to forward their report. It should be but there could be liability issues.
As for the negotiation, are these defects common to the age and type of the building and to be expected or are they caused by neglected maintenance?
If it's the latter then you'd have grounds for re-negotiation. If it's the former then I'd say they should have been reflected in the original price.
I second checking with the writer to ensure that it's suitable to forward their report. It should be but there could be liability issues.
As for the negotiation, are these defects common to the age and type of the building and to be expected or are they caused by neglected maintenance?
If it's the latter then you'd have grounds for re-negotiation. If it's the former then I'd say they should have been reflected in the original price.
mk1fan said:
As for the negotiation, are these defects common to the age and type of the building and to be expected or are they caused by neglected maintenance?
If it's the latter then you'd have grounds for re-negotiation. If it's the former then I'd say they should have been reflected in the original price.
As above, all re-wiring, re-plumbing etc were obvious to us at the time and we have absorbed these costs (and all other obvious improvement works) into our calculations. The issue highlighted on the survey which we were not aware of (and that we are concerned about) is that there are no lintels above any of the windows or doors (5 doors and 14 windows) and we have been advised that these are in the region of £900 per door, £400 per window. We knew we would have to replace the windows as they aren't double glazed, but had no idea that the lintels were missing (both in the original 50s part of the house and in the late 80s extension part). Without the lintels, the window and door frames are holding up parts of the property.If it's the latter then you'd have grounds for re-negotiation. If it's the former then I'd say they should have been reflected in the original price.
I've now supplied the relevant parts of the survey to the EA so just waiting on a response. Thanks to everyone who contributed above.
scirocco265 said:
The issue highlighted on the survey which we were not aware of (and that we are concerned about) is that there are no lintels above any of the windows or doors (5 doors and 14 windows) and we have been advised that these are in the region of £900 per door, £400 per window. We knew we would have to replace the windows as they aren't double glazed, but had no idea that the lintels were missing (both in the original 50s part of the house and in the late 80s extension part). Without the lintels, the window and door frames are holding up parts of the property.
Good luck with your negotiations but if, as mentioned above and is most likely, that the additional lintels will be outer leaf only it's quite a different situation to that which you initially stated:scirocco265 said:
structural defects that require swift rectification,
... merely deal with essential repairs.
What you are proposing to do is not deal with defects or repairs but alterations to the property. The outer leaf does little structurally and you could replace all of the windows with timber framed, double glazed ones. If you choose to fit uPVC which in turn require outer leaf lintels that's your choice, not a structural requirement. If it were a flat roofed property would you want the cost of putting on a pitch allowed for? Or the cost of a masonry inner leaf adding to a timber framed building?... merely deal with essential repairs.
JR said:
What you are proposing to do is not deal with defects or repairs but alterations to the property. The outer leaf does little structurally and you could replace all of the windows with timber framed, double glazed ones.
Hmmm... interesting. If this is all correct, that's a massive weight off my mind. The Surveyor informed us that this was a priority to be rectified and when we rang round, most places said that we would need to insert metal lintel supports before changing the windows. It obviously concerned us as not only was the Surveyor 'apprehensive' but also, there are some defects in the brickwork/walls above some areas. This means we can now plough on ahead.- breathes sigh of relief*
I think you've misunderstood my post.
If the 'defects' are a latent issue - i.e known and inherent - with the type of construction then the original price would reflect this. Just because you don't know of the latent defect - that's what Surveys are for - doesn't mean that the price doesn't reflect it.
The questions you need to ask are 'How long have the lintels been missing?' 'Were they removed or was the building built without them?' 'If the building was built without them - and the design allows for this - why does it need them now?'
If the 'defects' are a latent issue - i.e known and inherent - with the type of construction then the original price would reflect this. Just because you don't know of the latent defect - that's what Surveys are for - doesn't mean that the price doesn't reflect it.
The questions you need to ask are 'How long have the lintels been missing?' 'Were they removed or was the building built without them?' 'If the building was built without them - and the design allows for this - why does it need them now?'
JR said:
What you are proposing to do is not deal with defects or repairs but alterations to the property. The outer leaf does little structurally and you could replace all of the windows with timber framed, double glazed ones. If you choose to fit uPVC which in turn require outer leaf lintels that's your choice, not a structural requirement. If it were a flat roofed property would you want the cost of putting on a pitch allowed for? Or the cost of a masonry inner leaf adding to a timber framed building?
I'm sorry but I think this is absolute rubbish. The outer leaf is part of your wall. A property built in the 1950s would typically have lintols over all opening and something from the 80's will for certain if it has been built correctly. Makes me wonder how he has determined that there are no lintols. You can't always see them.[Surveyors caveat coming up: that all presupposes that it's a standard cavity wall].
If your surveyor believes it's a defect that requires attention then you need to give that serious thought. None of us on here have seen it have we but he has. In terms of showing the report to the vendor, why not. The surveyor will only be concerned if someone else is seeking to rely on that report, which they can't. A problem at the property may well be a suprise to the vendor. You are not just trying an unfounded chip of the price, you have a report identifying extra expenditure. It becomes a matter of choice doesn't it. Either you buy it at the full price, or the reduced price.
Incidently, in respect of a couple of posts up there ^^^^^^^^^^^
It can be almost impossible to tell snap headers from flemish bond.
Use a chartered building surveyor and he shouldn't then refer something to a structural engineer. If he does, and it's not something dramatic, he is terrified of his own shadow and you should go elsewhere.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No, brickowrk arches naturally. There are exceptions where it's not appropriate and I wouldn't build a wall like that but in a house, typically from over 50 years ago, if it's not showing signs of distress I wouldn't recommend racing into altering it's structure.JR said:
No, brickowrk arches naturally. There are exceptions where it's not appropriate and I wouldn't build a wall like that but in a house, typically from over 50 years ago, if it's not showing signs of distress I wouldn't recommend racing into altering it's structure.
I only asked the question because I dont think any structural engineer worth his salt would question an arched window opening, and I dont think the OP has been specific on this matter either way.I agree with what you are saying about altering structures that are non distressed though. What I don't get is a CBS/SI saying as such.
Edit: Weepholes?
Edited by jules_s on Sunday 13th June 22:05
scirocco265 said:
On the road to purchasing a property which we feel is 'in need of modernisation' (e.g. cosmetic plus re-plumbing/re-wiring) and have already taken this into consideration when making our offer.
However, the results of the Structural Survey have highlighted some additional problems with regard structural defects that require swift rectification, pricing the additional works at around £15,000.
We don't want to be insult the Vendor but as we were not (and could not have been) aware of the additional strutural work at the time of offering, our Solicitor has requested a contributory sum of £7,000 (or money off the purchase price) from the other side, highlighting the works will not improve the property, but merely deal with essential repairs. She also provided to them an extract of the Survey.
Now the EA has started hassling me for a full copy of the report and I have referred him to our Solicitor. Problem is I have just found out that our Solicitor went on holiday on Tuesday and is not due back until 28th June
I obviously do not want this dragging on for longer than is necessary so do I provide an extract of the Survey to the EA personally, or do I just sit tight and waiting for my Solicitor to come back from sunning herself?
Your solicitor has advised you with the knowledge that £15k of work needs to be done to ask for £7k off as a starting point and then went on holiday with no-one to cover your case?However, the results of the Structural Survey have highlighted some additional problems with regard structural defects that require swift rectification, pricing the additional works at around £15,000.
We don't want to be insult the Vendor but as we were not (and could not have been) aware of the additional strutural work at the time of offering, our Solicitor has requested a contributory sum of £7,000 (or money off the purchase price) from the other side, highlighting the works will not improve the property, but merely deal with essential repairs. She also provided to them an extract of the Survey.
Now the EA has started hassling me for a full copy of the report and I have referred him to our Solicitor. Problem is I have just found out that our Solicitor went on holiday on Tuesday and is not due back until 28th June
I obviously do not want this dragging on for longer than is necessary so do I provide an extract of the Survey to the EA personally, or do I just sit tight and waiting for my Solicitor to come back from sunning herself?
Cut your losses.
Whatever figure you come back with will be negotiated back up anyway.
Start at the £15k. Get a new solicitor to instruct.
The reason why your old solicitor only told you to ask for £7k off is simply to ensure the sale goes through and they get paid for their services. To the additional cost to you of at least £8,000.
Get a new solicitor.
JustinP1 said:
scirocco265 said:
On the road to purchasing a property which we feel is 'in need of modernisation' (e.g. cosmetic plus re-plumbing/re-wiring) and have already taken this into consideration when making our offer.
However, the results of the Structural Survey have highlighted some additional problems with regard structural defects that require swift rectification, pricing the additional works at around £15,000.
We don't want to be insult the Vendor but as we were not (and could not have been) aware of the additional strutural work at the time of offering, our Solicitor has requested a contributory sum of £7,000 (or money off the purchase price) from the other side, highlighting the works will not improve the property, but merely deal with essential repairs. She also provided to them an extract of the Survey.
Now the EA has started hassling me for a full copy of the report and I have referred him to our Solicitor. Problem is I have just found out that our Solicitor went on holiday on Tuesday and is not due back until 28th June
I obviously do not want this dragging on for longer than is necessary so do I provide an extract of the Survey to the EA personally, or do I just sit tight and waiting for my Solicitor to come back from sunning herself?
Your solicitor has advised you with the knowledge that £15k of work needs to be done to ask for £7k off as a starting point and then went on holiday with no-one to cover your case?However, the results of the Structural Survey have highlighted some additional problems with regard structural defects that require swift rectification, pricing the additional works at around £15,000.
We don't want to be insult the Vendor but as we were not (and could not have been) aware of the additional strutural work at the time of offering, our Solicitor has requested a contributory sum of £7,000 (or money off the purchase price) from the other side, highlighting the works will not improve the property, but merely deal with essential repairs. She also provided to them an extract of the Survey.
Now the EA has started hassling me for a full copy of the report and I have referred him to our Solicitor. Problem is I have just found out that our Solicitor went on holiday on Tuesday and is not due back until 28th June
I obviously do not want this dragging on for longer than is necessary so do I provide an extract of the Survey to the EA personally, or do I just sit tight and waiting for my Solicitor to come back from sunning herself?
Cut your losses.
Whatever figure you come back with will be negotiated back up anyway.
Start at the £15k. Get a new solicitor to instruct.
The reason why your old solicitor only told you to ask for £7k off is simply to ensure the sale goes through and they get paid for their services. To the additional cost to you of at least £8,000.
Get a new solicitor.
Bearing in mind I think the OP is not giving us all the facts.
I don't think this is a cause for re-negotioation. If the property not having lintels was a structural issue there would be signs of distress evident to the layman with cracks and settlement of the structure.
As said above if the property is Victorian with brick flat arches then no lintels are required - unless there's been settlement and the reveals have moved.
Christopher Wren designed the roof of the Cattle Market to not require internal supporting collumns. However, the Government Inspectors of the time demanded columns be installed. So he built them two inches short of the ceiling. To this day Structural Engineers say that the columns are required and pack the gap with slate. Even though the structure hasn't moved in all this time.
I suggest you have a clear and simple conversation with the Structural Engineer as to why this is an issue. It's all well and good only concentrating on money but (should the works be required) YOU are going to have to have the work carried out either whilst you're living in the place or before you move in. Where are you going to live whilst the work is done? Is it going to mean doubling up on moving costs? Do you have somewhere to stay whilst the work is being done?
I don't think this is a cause for re-negotioation. If the property not having lintels was a structural issue there would be signs of distress evident to the layman with cracks and settlement of the structure.
As said above if the property is Victorian with brick flat arches then no lintels are required - unless there's been settlement and the reveals have moved.
Christopher Wren designed the roof of the Cattle Market to not require internal supporting collumns. However, the Government Inspectors of the time demanded columns be installed. So he built them two inches short of the ceiling. To this day Structural Engineers say that the columns are required and pack the gap with slate. Even though the structure hasn't moved in all this time.
I suggest you have a clear and simple conversation with the Structural Engineer as to why this is an issue. It's all well and good only concentrating on money but (should the works be required) YOU are going to have to have the work carried out either whilst you're living in the place or before you move in. Where are you going to live whilst the work is done? Is it going to mean doubling up on moving costs? Do you have somewhere to stay whilst the work is being done?
scirocco265 said:
We knew we would have to replace the windows as they aren't double glazed, but had no idea that the lintels were missing (both in the original 50s part of the house and in the late 80s extension part). Without the lintels, the window and door frames are holding up parts of the property.
Not Victorian, but 50's and 80's. Agreed, Victorian houses may well have brick arches with a timber behind.Something isn't quite right with the problem as described.
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