Advice please: NIC EIC for Landlords
Discussion
I am renting my house through a letting agent.
We've just had the electrical inspection back and it has failed with several Level 2s on lighting.
The house is 5 years old but the regs (BS7671) are only 2 years old. I've checked online and it is clear that BS7671 (the regs) are not retrospective.
So my question is: How do I get a proper certificate without upgrading the wiring/kit if the house is being assessed against criteria that did not exist when it was built?
I have no problem fixing anything that is unsafe but this looks like a catch 22.
What should I do??
We've just had the electrical inspection back and it has failed with several Level 2s on lighting.
The house is 5 years old but the regs (BS7671) are only 2 years old. I've checked online and it is clear that BS7671 (the regs) are not retrospective.
So my question is: How do I get a proper certificate without upgrading the wiring/kit if the house is being assessed against criteria that did not exist when it was built?
I have no problem fixing anything that is unsafe but this looks like a catch 22.
What should I do??
NailedOn said:
Smiler. said:
Ah, they are not cheap. How many?
Six decent sized ones in the hall & landing and 5 tubes under the kitchen cabinets.Then probably about 8 in two bathrooms.
Do I need them fixed to be compliant?
The requirements for fire rated lights/hoods is a building regs requirement I think as oppose to the Wiring Regs. In any event, I sure the same requirements for fire compartments were around 5 years ago, so you should already have compliant stuff installed.
I'm not familiar with an NICEIC inspection for landlords of dwellings, there might be some additional things they check.
Are all the lights recessed? I can't see how the tubes under the kitchen cabinets are an issue. Did they say there was an issue with the wiring or anything else?
You can buy hoods for the downlighters from wholesalers like TLC for no more than £10 each. Count how many you need and fit them yourself.
As for the undercabinet lights. Either remove them or buy the covers yourself - get te make and model off the light. They only 'snap' on.
Even buying new lights and fitting them would only be £20 each.
Total saving circa £500.
£100 cheque made payable to mk1fan for services rendered cheers
As for the undercabinet lights. Either remove them or buy the covers yourself - get te make and model off the light. They only 'snap' on.
Even buying new lights and fitting them would only be £20 each.
Total saving circa £500.
£100 cheque made payable to mk1fan for services rendered cheers
dont bother with fire hoods. much easier in the long run to buy proper fire rated downlihts. you can pick them up from screwfix. prices start at about a tenner a pop.
kitchen counter top lighting wouldn't really be a cause for concern, unless it is posing a danger. please list the code 2's so that we can have a good read over them and advise accordingly.
please be aware that some electricians are being a bit over zealous with their codings.... its a bit quiet out there at the moment..
ETA: although your installation does not conform to TODAYS regulations. it will have conformed to a previous edition and will therefore have been compliant at the time. the downlights... looking at £130 ish to buy yourself.
that leaves a hefty profit for half a days work!!
kitchen counter top lighting wouldn't really be a cause for concern, unless it is posing a danger. please list the code 2's so that we can have a good read over them and advise accordingly.
please be aware that some electricians are being a bit over zealous with their codings.... its a bit quiet out there at the moment..
ETA: although your installation does not conform to TODAYS regulations. it will have conformed to a previous edition and will therefore have been compliant at the time. the downlights... looking at £130 ish to buy yourself.
that leaves a hefty profit for half a days work!!
Edited by DrDeAtH on Thursday 29th July 21:01
mk1fan said:
Although fitting hoods will be quicker and not require any wiring and give accoustic benefits.
Thanks for the feedback folks. I am replacing the downlighters with new & compliant units. Turns out that the cabinet lights are ok now.Edited by mk1fan on Thursday 29th July 21:05
Always good to get free advice!
Spoke to the electrician earlier and the regs are effectively retrospective as the certificate is only issued against current regs.
I hope that the 2008 ones stay in force for a while.
Once again, thanks, the topic has been helpful.
Edited by NailedOn on Friday 30th July 10:32
NailedOn said:
mk1fan said:
Although fitting hoods will be quicker and not require any wiring and give accoustic benefits.
Thanks for the feedback folks. I am replacing the downlighters with new & compliant units. Turns out that the cabinet lights are ok now.Edited by mk1fan on Thursday 29th July 21:05
Always good to get free advice!
Spoke to the electrician earlier and the regs are effectively retrospective as the certificate is only issued against current regs.
I hope that the 2008 ones stay in force for a while.
Once again, thanks, the topic has been helpful.
Edited by NailedOn on Friday 30th July 10:32
Glad you got it sorted.
If you look at the document, it will say it is a periodic report. It is not a certificate. Electricians only certify their own work is compliant. The report is not a pass or fail but an assessment of the condition by a competent person. The report tells you whether it complies with current standards (so far as they can reasonably ascertain) - just because it doesn't does not necessarily make it unsafe.
If the report highlights any non compliant items, the local authority can insist you put it right. This is their requirement, not that of BS 7671. I'm glad you are getting the work done; it is debatable whether it is needed but when you are dealing with commercial or rental properties, it is always wise to comply with the CYA regs (Cover Your Arse Regulations).
It is an interesting topic though. I haven't been involved with much domestic stuff for about 5 years - only stuff for myself and occasionally friends and family. The last time I looked at this, the technical publications were saying there was no need to use fire rated luminaires in dwellings. I remember reading an article by either the NICEIC or the ECA on the subject a while back. They commissioned laboratory tests on building materials to see how they were affected by installation of recessed downlighters. The requirements of BS 7671 generally say you should not make the material you are fixing to any worse than it is in terms of its required fire resistance.
The tests they did found that the effects of installing recessed spot lights were negligible. The recommendations were:
If the report highlights any non compliant items, the local authority can insist you put it right. This is their requirement, not that of BS 7671. I'm glad you are getting the work done; it is debatable whether it is needed but when you are dealing with commercial or rental properties, it is always wise to comply with the CYA regs (Cover Your Arse Regulations).
It is an interesting topic though. I haven't been involved with much domestic stuff for about 5 years - only stuff for myself and occasionally friends and family. The last time I looked at this, the technical publications were saying there was no need to use fire rated luminaires in dwellings. I remember reading an article by either the NICEIC or the ECA on the subject a while back. They commissioned laboratory tests on building materials to see how they were affected by installation of recessed downlighters. The requirements of BS 7671 generally say you should not make the material you are fixing to any worse than it is in terms of its required fire resistance.
The tests they did found that the effects of installing recessed spot lights were negligible. The recommendations were:
- There is no requirement to use fire rated fittings in a dwelling
- You should consider the risk of fire arising from combustible materials coming in contact with the back of the luminaire and ensure adequate precautions are taken
Edited by Ganglandboss on Friday 30th July 13:54
Smiler. said:
I think the building regs require fire rated fittings in certain areas of dwellings so the compartmentation isn't compromised.
I couldn't see how the NICEIC would pick that up though, unless they are being a bit proactive (which although a pain, is a good thing).
The issue in a dwelling generally isn't compartmentation as each dwelling is usually a compartment as a whole. Except in the case of flats, the only way you can compromise the compartment is to breach a party wall. Despite this, elements of a building still have to resist fire for a pre-determined length of time and remain structurally sound long enough for people to escape. BS 7671:2008 Regulation 527.2 - 'Sealing of wiring system penetrations' covers the effect of compromising fire resistance.I couldn't see how the NICEIC would pick that up though, unless they are being a bit proactive (which although a pain, is a good thing).
The way the NICEIC would pick it up is by inspection of their members. The NICEIC require their members to work to all applicable regulations as well as their own codes of practice. It is easy for an NICEIC approved contractor to establish whether the fire hoods are fitted - he only has to pop his head in the loft or take a lamp out. No sensible electrician is going to risk turning a blind eye to something, just in case he gets inspected.
Ganglandboss said:
Smiler. said:
I think the building regs require fire rated fittings in certain areas of dwellings so the compartmentation isn't compromised.
I couldn't see how the NICEIC would pick that up though, unless they are being a bit proactive (which although a pain, is a good thing).
The issue in a dwelling generally isn't compartmentation as each dwelling is usually a compartment as a whole. Except in the case of flats, the only way you can compromise the compartment is to breach a party wall. Despite this, elements of a building still have to resist fire for a pre-determined length of time and remain structurally sound long enough for people to escape. BS 7671:2008 Regulation 527.2 - 'Sealing of wiring system penetrations' covers the effect of compromising fire resistance.I couldn't see how the NICEIC would pick that up though, unless they are being a bit proactive (which although a pain, is a good thing).
The way the NICEIC would pick it up is by inspection of their members. The NICEIC require their members to work to all applicable regulations as well as their own codes of practice. It is easy for an NICEIC approved contractor to establish whether the fire hoods are fitted - he only has to pop his head in the loft or take a lamp out. No sensible electrician is going to risk turning a blind eye to something, just in case he gets inspected.
And whilst 527 states wiring systems, I take your point.
In a domestic 2-story dwelling, the only requirement for fire retardment is a protected staircase to exit.
How does a bathroom enter the equation?
Smiler. said:
Ganglandboss said:
Smiler. said:
I think the building regs require fire rated fittings in certain areas of dwellings so the compartmentation isn't compromised.
I couldn't see how the NICEIC would pick that up though, unless they are being a bit proactive (which although a pain, is a good thing).
The issue in a dwelling generally isn't compartmentation as each dwelling is usually a compartment as a whole. Except in the case of flats, the only way you can compromise the compartment is to breach a party wall. Despite this, elements of a building still have to resist fire for a pre-determined length of time and remain structurally sound long enough for people to escape. BS 7671:2008 Regulation 527.2 - 'Sealing of wiring system penetrations' covers the effect of compromising fire resistance.I couldn't see how the NICEIC would pick that up though, unless they are being a bit proactive (which although a pain, is a good thing).
The way the NICEIC would pick it up is by inspection of their members. The NICEIC require their members to work to all applicable regulations as well as their own codes of practice. It is easy for an NICEIC approved contractor to establish whether the fire hoods are fitted - he only has to pop his head in the loft or take a lamp out. No sensible electrician is going to risk turning a blind eye to something, just in case he gets inspected.
And whilst 527 states wiring systems, I take your point.
In a domestic 2-story dwelling, the only requirement for fire retardment is a protected staircase to exit.
How does a bathroom enter the equation?
Smiler. said:
Yes, but if the only space that is required to be protected is a staircase, and a bathroom is outside of that area, then the bathroom ceiling does not need to be fire rated.
All elements have to have some sort of fire resistance. The requirements are in Appendix A of the Part B approved document. Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff