Dispute with trades person - Advice needed
Discussion
The long version:
We recently had some work done at our house. When the guy came round to quote he estimated 5 days for the work to which we were surprised as everybody else had said 3, however, he had a lower price overall so we were satisfied to go ahead (more fool us).
He started and things very quickly looked as if they weren't going well: he was very slow; spent most of the time talking to other trades people; always turned up at 10, left at half 4. At the beginning of day 3, I reiterated to him that this was a fixed price for the job, he muttered something about "not working for free", so I told him that at any point if the job would be more expensive he would have to agree a price beforehand.
On the fifth day, he tells us all is well and he should be done at the end of the day. But he isn't. And he does a couple of hours on day 6, and a couple of hours on day 7.
End of the work, he presents a bill for 25% more, citing materials more expensive than first though and additional labour days.
I've offered as a compromise to meet him halfway to cover the additional materials but he won't go away.
Short version:
Got someone in on a fixed price job. Had the job taken less time, he would've happily agreed to the fixed price. Unfortunately, the job took longer (due to his lack of other work methinks). Now he's trying to stick it up me for an additional 25%. I offered to meet him halfway, he says no.
What would you do?
We recently had some work done at our house. When the guy came round to quote he estimated 5 days for the work to which we were surprised as everybody else had said 3, however, he had a lower price overall so we were satisfied to go ahead (more fool us).
He started and things very quickly looked as if they weren't going well: he was very slow; spent most of the time talking to other trades people; always turned up at 10, left at half 4. At the beginning of day 3, I reiterated to him that this was a fixed price for the job, he muttered something about "not working for free", so I told him that at any point if the job would be more expensive he would have to agree a price beforehand.
On the fifth day, he tells us all is well and he should be done at the end of the day. But he isn't. And he does a couple of hours on day 6, and a couple of hours on day 7.
End of the work, he presents a bill for 25% more, citing materials more expensive than first though and additional labour days.
I've offered as a compromise to meet him halfway to cover the additional materials but he won't go away.
Short version:
Got someone in on a fixed price job. Had the job taken less time, he would've happily agreed to the fixed price. Unfortunately, the job took longer (due to his lack of other work methinks). Now he's trying to stick it up me for an additional 25%. I offered to meet him halfway, he says no.
What would you do?
If the quote was written then pay him the money stated on the quote and then tell him to get lost. Does he seem the sort to come back if you know what I mean?
If the quote was not written then it will be harder to defend but ultimatly he has no written confirmation either and it will be his word against yours. Put something in writing offering to meet him halfway if he rejects this then that is his problem and he will have to go through court to get the money (which he wont)
If the quote was not written then it will be harder to defend but ultimatly he has no written confirmation either and it will be his word against yours. Put something in writing offering to meet him halfway if he rejects this then that is his problem and he will have to go through court to get the money (which he wont)
did he provide you with a fixed price quote regardless of how long he estimated?
supply of goods and services act 1982 says work must be of reasonable price is no price is agreed
so whatever you do, make sure you pay him with a traceable amount ot be able to prove you have paid him
you should then be able to pay him what you initally agreed (wth the extra if you want) and then have him sue you for the rest.
supply of goods and services act 1982 says work must be of reasonable price is no price is agreed
so whatever you do, make sure you pay him with a traceable amount ot be able to prove you have paid him
you should then be able to pay him what you initally agreed (wth the extra if you want) and then have him sue you for the rest.
sound like a "cash in hand " deal . Did you get it all in writing? if so then fine. But if your just another customer who pays cash hoping to save etc knowing that the tradesman will also not be paying tax etc then i have no sympathy.
Never do cash and always demand full quotes. If there is a area that the tradesman is unsure about then get them to quote to "remove " etc and then once they can see the real scope of the works supply a quote to carry on.
Estimates are dangerous
Never do cash and always demand full quotes. If there is a area that the tradesman is unsure about then get them to quote to "remove " etc and then once they can see the real scope of the works supply a quote to carry on.
Estimates are dangerous
A few more details...
The guy was recommended to me as he is the father of a colleague.
There was no written quotation at the beginning of the work (mostly for the reason above - I know, I know...).
He said he would supply materials and reckoned upon 5 days. He has subsequently confirmed in writing that he estimated 5 days.
When we questioned why it would take 2 days longer than other estimates, he cited inexperience of that particular brand.
On the third day of the job, I confirmed with him it was a fixed price job. He was hesitant to concur as he may come across "unforeseens", so we agreed that if any additional charges would be added to the bill that we would agree a revised figure beforehand. He has also confirmed this conversation in writing.
At the end of the work, he then produced the revised bill.
My (written) response has been to meet the (increased) bill for materials in full, and then five days labour on top.
He has completed the bulk of the work, and to my satisfaction - however, the 'smaller' parts of the job e.g. making good, plus other small bits we ended up doing in his absence.
I am aware that he made errors along the way that required rectification, thus taking the job over the stated time.
I am in 2 minds over if he will "come back" - due to the nature of the recommendation I feel he wouldn't, but to the racial abuse he hurled at my partner as he left the property, I wouldn't like to guarantee it.
I feel like responding to his latest correspondance as follows: "The offer for materials in full plus 5 days (which is more than reasonable) will be available to you until Monday at 6pm. Should you fail to accept this sum by this time, then a cheque for only the original quotation will be in the post to you on Tuesday morning."
Thoughts?
The guy was recommended to me as he is the father of a colleague.
There was no written quotation at the beginning of the work (mostly for the reason above - I know, I know...).
He said he would supply materials and reckoned upon 5 days. He has subsequently confirmed in writing that he estimated 5 days.
When we questioned why it would take 2 days longer than other estimates, he cited inexperience of that particular brand.
On the third day of the job, I confirmed with him it was a fixed price job. He was hesitant to concur as he may come across "unforeseens", so we agreed that if any additional charges would be added to the bill that we would agree a revised figure beforehand. He has also confirmed this conversation in writing.
At the end of the work, he then produced the revised bill.
My (written) response has been to meet the (increased) bill for materials in full, and then five days labour on top.
He has completed the bulk of the work, and to my satisfaction - however, the 'smaller' parts of the job e.g. making good, plus other small bits we ended up doing in his absence.
I am aware that he made errors along the way that required rectification, thus taking the job over the stated time.
I am in 2 minds over if he will "come back" - due to the nature of the recommendation I feel he wouldn't, but to the racial abuse he hurled at my partner as he left the property, I wouldn't like to guarantee it.
I feel like responding to his latest correspondance as follows: "The offer for materials in full plus 5 days (which is more than reasonable) will be available to you until Monday at 6pm. Should you fail to accept this sum by this time, then a cheque for only the original quotation will be in the post to you on Tuesday morning."
Thoughts?
scirocco265 said:
Thoughts?
In court that would seem a little like blackmail. But if he's 'hurling racial abuse' then it doesn't sound like it's going to end happily anyway. He should have told you the work was going to cost more before he started the additional work, but failed to do so, either because he isn't very bright, or forgot, or reckoned you'd just pay up anyway.Taking a step back, consider the work. Is it worth what he's asking, or are you being stubborn because it's more than the estimate? If he had said halfway through 'Sorry guv, but it's going to be an extra £200 because the widget is jammed under the wossname and I need to hurgle it with a spodgehammer' would you have said 'OK, go ahead'?
scirocco265 said:
but to the racial abuse he hurled at my partner as he left the property, I wouldn't like to guarantee it.
sorry to hear you having to suffer that sort of abuse .That alone gives the perfect picture of the type of scumbag you are unfortunately dealing with.
edit
My thoughts on you even offering additional sums would be an admission that you accept it was originally not a fixed price .
I would try to find a line that is offering the additional sum as a goodwill gesture and that you maintain the original price was a fixed price .
Edited by Busamav on Saturday 21st August 09:59
Simpo Two said:
He should have told you the work was going to cost more before he started the additional work, but failed to do so, either because he isn't very bright, or forgot, or reckoned you'd just pay up anyway.
Reckoned we'd end up paying anyway are my feelings....Simpo Two said:
Taking a step back, consider the work. Is it worth what he's asking, or are you being stubborn because it's more than the estimate? If he had said halfway through 'Sorry guv, but it's going to be an extra £200 because the widget is jammed under the wossname and I need to hurgle it with a spodgehammer' wuld you have said 'OK, go ahead'?
No, it isn't worth what he is asking. Had we known it would increase to the new figure, we would not have instructed him to do the work. We only have limited funds for this work - which he was fully aware of. In addition, the revised sum makes him extraordinarily expensive rather than his original 'good' price.scirocco265 said:
No, it isn't worth what he is asking. Had we known it would increase to the new figure, we would not have instructed him to do the work. We only have limited funds for this work - which he was fully aware of. In addition, the revised sum makes him extraordinarily expensive rather than his original 'good' price.
In that case I would pay him the agreed estimate. It is his fault tht he failed to inform you of extra costs in time. Even if they are justified, there was no contract verbal or otherwise between you for him to do the work - he proceeded of his own volition.Well that's my take on it anyway. My personal hunch is that he tried to be a 'geezer' and it blew up in his face, and he doesn't like it.
Busamav said:
Estimate, quote or whatever he may wish to call it
As there is a distinct difference [in law] between an estimate and a quotation then it is important to get this point right.An estimate enables the service provider to revise the price.
A quotation cannot be revised - although it can be added to with agreement between the parties to cover extra costs.
If the OP were to go to court over this and the builder can establish that they provided an estimate for the works then it would be down to the OP to demonstrate that additional costs are not reasonable.
That's not to say that the OP is wrong.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you're getting work done on your house then get a quote not an estimate.
It's gone way beyond a friendly negotiation.
I've been in a similar situation. If you know where he lives drop round leave him the money you have agreed to pay him and politely tell him to Foxtrot Oscar, alternatively leave the money with his relative that recommended him.
He won't take it to court so don't worry about the contractual nuances. In the very unlikely event he contacts you or your family again in a less than business like manner just notify the Police.
It's all very well people telling you to tie everything up in a watertight contract or a fixed quote at the start of a job but in the real world it doesn't always work like that. A trustworthy tradesman will notify you when a job starts to go above his estimate and agree it with you rather than just land you with the bill at the end.
Finally, NEVER, NEVER accept a recommendation for someone's best mate or relative. They will always tell you he is a top tradesman even if he is totally inept. The recommendation must be totally independent and make sure you have seen their previous work and talked to satisfied customers.
Good luck.
pp
I've been in a similar situation. If you know where he lives drop round leave him the money you have agreed to pay him and politely tell him to Foxtrot Oscar, alternatively leave the money with his relative that recommended him.
He won't take it to court so don't worry about the contractual nuances. In the very unlikely event he contacts you or your family again in a less than business like manner just notify the Police.
It's all very well people telling you to tie everything up in a watertight contract or a fixed quote at the start of a job but in the real world it doesn't always work like that. A trustworthy tradesman will notify you when a job starts to go above his estimate and agree it with you rather than just land you with the bill at the end.
Finally, NEVER, NEVER accept a recommendation for someone's best mate or relative. They will always tell you he is a top tradesman even if he is totally inept. The recommendation must be totally independent and make sure you have seen their previous work and talked to satisfied customers.
Good luck.
pp
Pickled Piper said:
Finally, NEVER, NEVER accept a recommendation for someone's best mate or relative. They will always tell you he is a top tradesman even if he is totally inept. The recommendation must be totally independent and make sure you have seen their previous work and talked to satisfied customers.
I agree. We used a friend's dad once, and the experience was horrendous.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff