Driveway Advise
Discussion
Can anyone give me some advice about driveways ?
My drive is sloping 70sq/m concrete area. A sewer runs underneath one side so it also has a manhole.
The surface has broken up in places (skip lorry damage when collecting) and on the whole it looks terrible.
2 options I like are tar & chip or normal block paving.
Would a tar & chip finish be suitable - 2 cars use the drive regularly.
If so what sub surface is it applied to ? I assume the existing concrete would need to be broken up completely ?
The area is london clay and all the neighbours have block paving with areas of severe dips, as if the ground underneath has subsided. Is there something I need to do to ensure this doesn't happen if I choose the block paving route ?
Finally any guidance on costs and or recommended tradesman/women around NW London ?
My drive is sloping 70sq/m concrete area. A sewer runs underneath one side so it also has a manhole.
The surface has broken up in places (skip lorry damage when collecting) and on the whole it looks terrible.
2 options I like are tar & chip or normal block paving.
Would a tar & chip finish be suitable - 2 cars use the drive regularly.
If so what sub surface is it applied to ? I assume the existing concrete would need to be broken up completely ?
The area is london clay and all the neighbours have block paving with areas of severe dips, as if the ground underneath has subsided. Is there something I need to do to ensure this doesn't happen if I choose the block paving route ?
Finally any guidance on costs and or recommended tradesman/women around NW London ?
Do it properly, especially over clay soils (it's probably a type of Wealden clay in your area).
Break out all the concrete, to see how thick it is. What I'd be looking for as a robust driveway construction on clay subsoil is 200mm of MOT Type 1 stone sub-base with 2 layers of tarmac on top: 75mm thick base course and a 25mm wearing course. So your total depth required after breaking out the concrete is 300mm. If your concrete is - say - 200mm thick, you'll need to excavate down a further 100mm to get to the required "formation" level.
I'd want the stone laid in two passes of 100mm each, well compacted with a small hand-operated roller.
Ensure the tarmac is highways grade also.
I'd be tempted to buy in the Type 1 myself from a local quarry (to cover a 70m2 drive in 200mm of stone you'll need about 31 tonnes), but get a reputable tarmac firm in to supply and lay the tarmac.
Break out all the concrete, to see how thick it is. What I'd be looking for as a robust driveway construction on clay subsoil is 200mm of MOT Type 1 stone sub-base with 2 layers of tarmac on top: 75mm thick base course and a 25mm wearing course. So your total depth required after breaking out the concrete is 300mm. If your concrete is - say - 200mm thick, you'll need to excavate down a further 100mm to get to the required "formation" level.
I'd want the stone laid in two passes of 100mm each, well compacted with a small hand-operated roller.
Ensure the tarmac is highways grade also.
I'd be tempted to buy in the Type 1 myself from a local quarry (to cover a 70m2 drive in 200mm of stone you'll need about 31 tonnes), but get a reputable tarmac firm in to supply and lay the tarmac.
kiteless said:
Do it properly, especially over clay soils (it's probably a type of Wealden clay in your area).
Break out all the concrete, to see how thick it is. What I'd be looking for as a robust driveway construction on clay subsoil is 200mm of MOT Type 1 stone sub-base with 2 layers of tarmac on top: 75mm thick base course and a 25mm wearing course. So your total depth required after breaking out the concrete is 300mm. If your concrete is - say - 200mm thick, you'll need to excavate down a further 100mm to get to the required "formation" level.
I'd want the stone laid in two passes of 100mm each, well compacted with a small hand-operated roller.
Ensure the tarmac is highways grade also.
I'd be tempted to buy in the Type 1 myself from a local quarry (to cover a 70m2 drive in 200mm of stone you'll need about 31 tonnes), but get a reputable tarmac firm in to supply and lay the tarmac.
This....^Break out all the concrete, to see how thick it is. What I'd be looking for as a robust driveway construction on clay subsoil is 200mm of MOT Type 1 stone sub-base with 2 layers of tarmac on top: 75mm thick base course and a 25mm wearing course. So your total depth required after breaking out the concrete is 300mm. If your concrete is - say - 200mm thick, you'll need to excavate down a further 100mm to get to the required "formation" level.
I'd want the stone laid in two passes of 100mm each, well compacted with a small hand-operated roller.
Ensure the tarmac is highways grade also.
I'd be tempted to buy in the Type 1 myself from a local quarry (to cover a 70m2 drive in 200mm of stone you'll need about 31 tonnes), but get a reputable tarmac firm in to supply and lay the tarmac.
Good sound advice there.....
Don't skimp on the preparation.
Wacky Racer said:
kiteless said:
Do it properly, especially over clay soils (it's probably a type of Wealden clay in your area).
Break out all the concrete, to see how thick it is. What I'd be looking for as a robust driveway construction on clay subsoil is 200mm of MOT Type 1 stone sub-base with 2 layers of tarmac on top: 75mm thick base course and a 25mm wearing course. So your total depth required after breaking out the concrete is 300mm. If your concrete is - say - 200mm thick, you'll need to excavate down a further 100mm to get to the required "formation" level.
I'd want the stone laid in two passes of 100mm each, well compacted with a small hand-operated roller.
Ensure the tarmac is highways grade also.
I'd be tempted to buy in the Type 1 myself from a local quarry (to cover a 70m2 drive in 200mm of stone you'll need about 31 tonnes), but get a reputable tarmac firm in to supply and lay the tarmac.
This....^Break out all the concrete, to see how thick it is. What I'd be looking for as a robust driveway construction on clay subsoil is 200mm of MOT Type 1 stone sub-base with 2 layers of tarmac on top: 75mm thick base course and a 25mm wearing course. So your total depth required after breaking out the concrete is 300mm. If your concrete is - say - 200mm thick, you'll need to excavate down a further 100mm to get to the required "formation" level.
I'd want the stone laid in two passes of 100mm each, well compacted with a small hand-operated roller.
Ensure the tarmac is highways grade also.
I'd be tempted to buy in the Type 1 myself from a local quarry (to cover a 70m2 drive in 200mm of stone you'll need about 31 tonnes), but get a reputable tarmac firm in to supply and lay the tarmac.
Good sound advice there.....
Don't skimp on the preparation.
Proper tarmac firm, they removed the old broken and sunk tarmac, exacavated a bit more to get proper depth, proper roadstone compacted as described above in layers.
Sealed Mastic Asphalt on top.
Still looks ace.
Wacky Racer said:
kiteless said:
Do it properly, especially over clay soils (it's probably a type of Wealden clay in your area).
Break out all the concrete, to see how thick it is. What I'd be looking for as a robust driveway construction on clay subsoil is 200mm of MOT Type 1 stone sub-base with 2 layers of tarmac on top: 75mm thick base course and a 25mm wearing course. So your total depth required after breaking out the concrete is 300mm. If your concrete is - say - 200mm thick, you'll need to excavate down a further 100mm to get to the required "formation" level.
I'd want the stone laid in two passes of 100mm each, well compacted with a small hand-operated roller.
Ensure the tarmac is highways grade also.
I'd be tempted to buy in the Type 1 myself from a local quarry (to cover a 70m2 drive in 200mm of stone you'll need about 31 tonnes), but get a reputable tarmac firm in to supply and lay the tarmac.
This....^Break out all the concrete, to see how thick it is. What I'd be looking for as a robust driveway construction on clay subsoil is 200mm of MOT Type 1 stone sub-base with 2 layers of tarmac on top: 75mm thick base course and a 25mm wearing course. So your total depth required after breaking out the concrete is 300mm. If your concrete is - say - 200mm thick, you'll need to excavate down a further 100mm to get to the required "formation" level.
I'd want the stone laid in two passes of 100mm each, well compacted with a small hand-operated roller.
Ensure the tarmac is highways grade also.
I'd be tempted to buy in the Type 1 myself from a local quarry (to cover a 70m2 drive in 200mm of stone you'll need about 31 tonnes), but get a reputable tarmac firm in to supply and lay the tarmac.
Good sound advice there.....
Don't skimp on the preparation.
I did a drive on my old house some years ago; dug it out to a good depth with a mini digger, extra strong weed killer, weed suppressant matting, good depth of hardcode, more weed killer in a solution 3 times what they recommend, and wacker plated it to within an inch of it's life, then a good depth of tarmac from a contact who wiorked at the depiot supplying roadbuilders. 15 years later it looked like new except for one drain for any pooling which I wished I had laid as a concrete pipe because the hole and soak I cut kept silting up and the sides crimbled.
I noticed some people are going for that resin based coloured gravel which sets hard, so it looks like gravel but is solid to drive ir walk on. Not sure how that goes with poor tarmac/concrete but I see some people are laying it over their block paving.
I noticed some people are going for that resin based coloured gravel which sets hard, so it looks like gravel but is solid to drive ir walk on. Not sure how that goes with poor tarmac/concrete but I see some people are laying it over their block paving.
Edited by Four Cofffee on Friday 27th August 11:17
Thanks for the advice so far - much appreciated.
So, I HAVE to get rid of the old concrete, then have 200mm MOT Type 1 sub base put down and have it compacted for the 2 tarmac layers to go on.
IF I chose the block route are the sand and blocks put on the same 200mm base or does it need to be even more ?
With a coloured finish - this is simply the tarmac procedure detailed about by Kiteless but with coloured chips spread as the top surface ?
Thanks for the guidance, not going to be DIY but would like to know what I'm talking about when discussing quotes.
(although Four Coffee -does make it sound very simple !)
So, I HAVE to get rid of the old concrete, then have 200mm MOT Type 1 sub base put down and have it compacted for the 2 tarmac layers to go on.
IF I chose the block route are the sand and blocks put on the same 200mm base or does it need to be even more ?
With a coloured finish - this is simply the tarmac procedure detailed about by Kiteless but with coloured chips spread as the top surface ?
Thanks for the guidance, not going to be DIY but would like to know what I'm talking about when discussing quotes.
(although Four Coffee -does make it sound very simple !)
Yup, fetch out all of the old concrete. I'd doubt it's reinforced it being in domestic use, so two blokes with a pneumatic breaker and a skip would kill it in a day and a half tops.
As someone else mentioned, just for belt and braces (and good practice), after all the concrete has been removed put a layer of geotextile membrane (i.e. Terram) down before you start laying the stone.
If you're going to go for block paving, the overall depth of construction will be deeper at 325mm (75mm paviours, on 50mm sand blinding, on 200mm Type 1).
For coloured tarmac, I'd get quite a few quotes. Again from reputable tarmac companies, especially so as it's considerably more per m2 than normal blacktop.
As someone else mentioned, just for belt and braces (and good practice), after all the concrete has been removed put a layer of geotextile membrane (i.e. Terram) down before you start laying the stone.
If you're going to go for block paving, the overall depth of construction will be deeper at 325mm (75mm paviours, on 50mm sand blinding, on 200mm Type 1).
For coloured tarmac, I'd get quite a few quotes. Again from reputable tarmac companies, especially so as it's considerably more per m2 than normal blacktop.
http://www.patternimprintedconcrete.com/driveways....
This looks the business. One of my neighbours at my last house had this done. looked great but a lot of prep went into it. The contractor was there for weeks.
This looks the business. One of my neighbours at my last house had this done. looked great but a lot of prep went into it. The contractor was there for weeks.
200mm type 1 is quite excessive. 150mm installed properly is more the norm.
If i did someones drive i would spec 150mm laid on a geotextile membrane to seperate the sub soil from the clay. 30-40mm sharp sand screed and then the block. All compacted with a proper diesel compactor plate. I dont rate rollers that much, they are more for compacting huge areas, a small to mid size diesel is more than ample. Most firms use silly little hinda petrol kiddy wackers
which coupled with 4" of crused concrete is why you see so many poor drives.
Of course if someone asked for 200mm i would do it, but i would bet that those drives near you wont be on 150mm more like 75-100mm , trust me i have been doing this since 97 and know lots of people who do this for a living and by and large they tell the customer what they want to hear and then do as they please once they get the job- pisses me off no end!
Digging out to 300 odd mm total depth will cost a fortune anywhere near London due to muck away and aggregate costs, which either way makes it impossible to do when it appears most people think block paving done properly is about £50 per m2
If i did someones drive i would spec 150mm laid on a geotextile membrane to seperate the sub soil from the clay. 30-40mm sharp sand screed and then the block. All compacted with a proper diesel compactor plate. I dont rate rollers that much, they are more for compacting huge areas, a small to mid size diesel is more than ample. Most firms use silly little hinda petrol kiddy wackers
which coupled with 4" of crused concrete is why you see so many poor drives.Of course if someone asked for 200mm i would do it, but i would bet that those drives near you wont be on 150mm more like 75-100mm , trust me i have been doing this since 97 and know lots of people who do this for a living and by and large they tell the customer what they want to hear and then do as they please once they get the job- pisses me off no end!
Digging out to 300 odd mm total depth will cost a fortune anywhere near London due to muck away and aggregate costs, which either way makes it impossible to do when it appears most people think block paving done properly is about £50 per m2
m3jappa said:
200mm type 1 is quite excessive. 150mm installed properly is more the norm.
From experience, clay soils in the South East are particularly prone to excess heave so - if it was my driveway - I'd ask for 200mm. Don't forget that on Wealden clay substrate the Highways Agency would probably ask for about 600mm of 6F2 to be put down prior to any Type 1 being laid over it (in adopted road construction). Specified tolerance floor slabs on clay soils require serious ground remediation such as lime stabilisation / piling / huge amounts of 6F2 stone fill: take your pick.Never underestimate the damage that poorly prepped clay soil can wreak on structures built on it.
I am well aware of what your saying but 13 years experience in the south east denotes its usually not needed unless there are existing problems. Or the client asks or money is no object. I would rather 150mm of well compacted stone over 200mm of ok compacted stone, if its not wacked properly then the sub base itself will settle.
Just to resurrect the thread.
Why do people do this?
This being have their drives laid bypikies errr itinerant contractors.
Because it's cheap.
Just watched a gang of errrr intinerant contractors with thick Oirish accents, although to be fair they didn't ask if we liked dags, lay two drives and extend a third for near neighbours.
Method, lift old tarmac, turf and a bit of soil.
No stone sub base, repeat no stone sub base, just the local sandy soil pressed down a bit, not rolled whacked, nothing.
Then layer of sand on top, pavers laid, whacked. Bye bye tanks verry much sorr, cash'll do noicely.
One of the people having their drive done had previously, a couple of years back, criticised the tarmac firm who did my immediate neighbour's drive on the basis that they had just used builders rubble as sub base not, and I quote, " the proper stuff like you had." unquote. In that he was referring to my drive being done.
So he clearly knows what is needed, but is just presumably too tight / stupid to have a proper job done.
If people didn't give these buggers work they wouldn't survive. People are indeed stupid.
Why do people do this?
This being have their drives laid by
Because it's cheap.
Just watched a gang of errrr intinerant contractors with thick Oirish accents, although to be fair they didn't ask if we liked dags, lay two drives and extend a third for near neighbours.
Method, lift old tarmac, turf and a bit of soil.
No stone sub base, repeat no stone sub base, just the local sandy soil pressed down a bit, not rolled whacked, nothing.
Then layer of sand on top, pavers laid, whacked. Bye bye tanks verry much sorr, cash'll do noicely.
One of the people having their drive done had previously, a couple of years back, criticised the tarmac firm who did my immediate neighbour's drive on the basis that they had just used builders rubble as sub base not, and I quote, " the proper stuff like you had." unquote. In that he was referring to my drive being done.
So he clearly knows what is needed, but is just presumably too tight / stupid to have a proper job done.
If people didn't give these buggers work they wouldn't survive. People are indeed stupid.
LOL that's one extreme to the other, some of the driveways above sound like they could take motorway traffic! I agree with m3jappa.
It sounds like there's a few office type engineers on this thread but not many hands on with practical experience. Of course if you employ structural engineers on any job they always go waaaay over the top.
It sounds like there's a few office type engineers on this thread but not many hands on with practical experience. Of course if you employ structural engineers on any job they always go waaaay over the top.
And then progressively skimp until it fails, then go back the other way again. History is littered (literally) with case histories showing this to be true.
M3jappa is bang on the money, but then he should be. I always wonder why people ask for help, get the correct advice, then continue to prat about in the same way as if they'd never had the help.
If you don't want the help, then don't waste the time of people on here (and elsewhere) by asking if you've no intention of learning from it.
M3jappa is bang on the money, but then he should be. I always wonder why people ask for help, get the correct advice, then continue to prat about in the same way as if they'd never had the help.
If you don't want the help, then don't waste the time of people on here (and elsewhere) by asking if you've no intention of learning from it.
F i F said:
Just to resurrect the thread.
Why do people do this?
This being have their drives laid bypikies errr itinerant contractors.
Because it's cheap.
Just watched a gang of errrr intinerant contractors with thick Oirish accents, although to be fair they didn't ask if we liked dags, lay two drives and extend a third for near neighbours.
Method, lift old tarmac, turf and a bit of soil.
No stone sub base, repeat no stone sub base, just the local sandy soil pressed down a bit, not rolled whacked, nothing.
Then layer of sand on top, pavers laid, whacked. Bye bye tanks verry much sorr, cash'll do noicely.
One of the people having their drive done had previously, a couple of years back, criticised the tarmac firm who did my immediate neighbour's drive on the basis that they had just used builders rubble as sub base not, and I quote, " the proper stuff like you had." unquote. In that he was referring to my drive being done.
So he clearly knows what is needed, but is just presumably too tight / stupid to have a proper job done.
If people didn't give these buggers work they wouldn't survive. People are indeed stupid.
The problem is (and its not just block paving) is people want cheap, probably 8 out of 10 want cheap, very few are actally aware of the work and costs involved to do the job properly.Why do people do this?
This being have their drives laid by
Because it's cheap.
Just watched a gang of errrr intinerant contractors with thick Oirish accents, although to be fair they didn't ask if we liked dags, lay two drives and extend a third for near neighbours.
Method, lift old tarmac, turf and a bit of soil.
No stone sub base, repeat no stone sub base, just the local sandy soil pressed down a bit, not rolled whacked, nothing.
Then layer of sand on top, pavers laid, whacked. Bye bye tanks verry much sorr, cash'll do noicely.
One of the people having their drive done had previously, a couple of years back, criticised the tarmac firm who did my immediate neighbour's drive on the basis that they had just used builders rubble as sub base not, and I quote, " the proper stuff like you had." unquote. In that he was referring to my drive being done.
So he clearly knows what is needed, but is just presumably too tight / stupid to have a proper job done.
If people didn't give these buggers work they wouldn't survive. People are indeed stupid.
m3jappa said:
The problem is (and its not just block paving) is people want cheap, probably 8 out of 10 want cheap, very few are actally aware of the work and costs involved to do the job properly.
Agreed, though the fact they went cheaper than cheap won't stop them whinging after a couple of years.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff