Party Wall Agreement ?!? HELP??!!
Discussion
Hi Fellow Pistonhead'ers,
I've got a real problem on my hands.
I have purchased an old Victorian house on a High Street at Auction. The garden was very, very over-grown and nothing could be seen.
Next to this house(1" gap) is a large development of flats (appromiately 70, which have been made by a large national developer).
I got a gardening team into clear the garden and it seems like the foundations of the flats next door, have been built on land (by about 12-15") and the wall constructed for the side of the flats is 3-4" on my land.
The really big problem I have is that I purchased the house (which has planning for 7 flats) to develop into the flats and then sell. The planning permision I have, is to extend to the rear of my property but the foundations and wall which is on my land is going to cause major issues.
Does anyone have any experience of this?
What happens if the previous owner of my house gave the natinoal builder permision to build the foundations and wall partly on which is now my land.
I feel sick, this is the single biggest project I have taken on (by myself without partners) and I'm gutted.
IceBoy
I've got a real problem on my hands.
I have purchased an old Victorian house on a High Street at Auction. The garden was very, very over-grown and nothing could be seen.
Next to this house(1" gap) is a large development of flats (appromiately 70, which have been made by a large national developer).
I got a gardening team into clear the garden and it seems like the foundations of the flats next door, have been built on land (by about 12-15") and the wall constructed for the side of the flats is 3-4" on my land.
The really big problem I have is that I purchased the house (which has planning for 7 flats) to develop into the flats and then sell. The planning permision I have, is to extend to the rear of my property but the foundations and wall which is on my land is going to cause major issues.
Does anyone have any experience of this?
What happens if the previous owner of my house gave the natinoal builder permision to build the foundations and wall partly on which is now my land.
I feel sick, this is the single biggest project I have taken on (by myself without partners) and I'm gutted.
IceBoy
IceBoy said:
...it seems like the foundations of the flats next door, have been built on land (by about 12-15") and the wall constructed for the side of the flats is 3-4" on my land.
What happens if the previous owner of my house gave the natinoal builder permision to build the foundations and wall partly on which is now my land.
Chances are that they will have served notice under the party wall act, as it's (almost) inconceivable that a national housebuilder would have been so incompetent as to neglect to follow the correct procedure.What happens if the previous owner of my house gave the natinoal builder permision to build the foundations and wall partly on which is now my land.
It's largely academic in retrospect, though, as unless you can prove that the former owner in fact objected to them undertaking the party wall work and they never the less carried on regardless, you've probably got very little recourse against them - it's fait accompli.
IceBoy said:
...The really big problem I have is that I purchased the house (which has planning for 7 flats) to develop into the flats and then sell. The planning permision I have, is to extend to the rear of my property but the foundations and wall which is on my land is going to cause major issues.
Have you consulted a structural engineer?Certainly, you may well be into a situation where you have to serve a party wall notice on them to allow you to build in proximity to their foundations, but there are almost certainly still technical solutions that will allow you to proceed with the approved design, albeit at some extra cost. For example, it's not impossible to build a wall that sits over the top of where their foundations project into your land, by cantilevering ground beams out from foundations set far enough inside your land that they don't interfere.
There may also be the possibility (depending on the design of the extension) of altering the design so that it doesn't impact on their foundations, without going through the cost and trouble of a full, new Planning Application, by means of what is called a 'Non material minor amendment' application.
For what it's worth, you can download a layman's guide to the Party Wall Act here
Sam_68 said:
as unless you can prove that the former owner in fact objected to them undertaking the party wall work
Doesn't matter if they did object to the works being done, that's not what the PWA is for. It all depends what works were proposed, where and how.If a LoJ notice was served then the footings are allowed to be placed on your land, although 'special' foundations can only be used by mutal agreement.
It's not very clear what you're refering too as structure. Is the wall one foot or one inch from the boundary line? Then you mention the foundations are twelve to fifteen inches(?) on your side of the boundary and then the wall three to four inches(?) on your side.
If the above is true then it sounds like they've raised a Party Wall, which on the face of it seems a stupid thing to do.
Are the foundations visible?
Notice is due to any person(s) or company that have an interest of twelve months or more from the date of Notice.
What you need to do is formally speak to someone who knows the PWA. You'll need to know what you want to build.
Edited by mk1fan on Thursday 18th November 19:35
Your Enquiries before Contract would have asked what notices had been received and you should have been told about the Party Wall ones. Ask your solictor he needs the extra fees
As far as serving your own notices I don't know but would guess the freeholder. Google Party Wall Act 1996 and you will get the government site.
This http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/plannin...
You will see that its called The Party Wall etc Act 1996 as it also covers foundations and other works
As far as serving your own notices I don't know but would guess the freeholder. Google Party Wall Act 1996 and you will get the government site.
This http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/plannin...
You will see that its called The Party Wall etc Act 1996 as it also covers foundations and other works
Exposed foundations sounds like slopy workmanship.
It sounds like a Party Wall has been raised. Which, on the face of it, does seem a bit odd but there maybe specific reasons why they have.
Regardless of whether the previous owner response to Notices was consent (complete or conditional) or dissent (meaning an Award was served) if any Notices were served is irrelevant. The PWA and it's procedures are not retrospective.
As you have just purchased the property then caveat emptor applies. If the fact that there is a Party Wall prevents you from doing what you wanted to do is - bluntly - your tough luck.
I doubt it will though.
Again, you need to formally speak to someone who knows the PWA and your plans.
It sounds like a Party Wall has been raised. Which, on the face of it, does seem a bit odd but there maybe specific reasons why they have.
Regardless of whether the previous owner response to Notices was consent (complete or conditional) or dissent (meaning an Award was served) if any Notices were served is irrelevant. The PWA and it's procedures are not retrospective.
As you have just purchased the property then caveat emptor applies. If the fact that there is a Party Wall prevents you from doing what you wanted to do is - bluntly - your tough luck.
I doubt it will though.
Again, you need to formally speak to someone who knows the PWA and your plans.
Sam_68 said:
It's largely academic in retrospect, though, as unless you can prove that the former owner in fact objected to them undertaking the party wall work and they never the less carried on regardless, you've probably got very little recourse against them - it's fait accompli.
Ok,It's completely irrelevant even if it is proved that no notices were served, the previous owners objected, the PWA wasn't followed, etc... it doesn't matter. That's before including that the OP is the new freeholder.
Using the words 'unless' 'objected' 'probably' and 'very little recourse' is wrong in terms of the PWA and this situation.
Based upon the details given by the OP. There's no recourse against the Developer. Therefore, fait accompli is correct but hey a broken watch is still right twice a day.
Now Sam, I can appreciate that you want to get into another slagging match before you agree with what I originally said but let's not allow your idiocy needlessly fill a thread.
And before someone else starts on about this being a 'pub' and people not really giving advice just airing views. These inaccurate, illinformed views or badly worded responses may get the OP's hopes up and send them off in a pointless direction that could cost them money and time.
To the OP. Find a local Party Wall Surveyor - such as a Chartered Building Surveyor, an Architect (although this is a rare find) or a Structural Engineer. The Pyramus & Thisbe Club can help locate someone. And ask to meet them on site for an informal chat about your situation.
Don't get your hopes up for compensation or getting the building changed.
Edited by mk1fan on Thursday 18th November 20:21
MJG280 said:
You will see that its called The Party Wall etc Act 1996 as it also covers foundations and other works.
At last someone has bothered to point out that the act is not limited to party walls and has named it correctly.To the OP: as sam pointed out the foundation issue is a little irritating but no real problem to your SE. Why are you bothered about the other wall being 3" onto your land? Why will it cause you a problem at all let alone a big problem?
Leaving the Party Wall Act procedures aside, it sounds a strange arrangement to have foundations extending 12-15" further out than the external wall. Given the garden was overgrown, I wonder if it's just excess concrete slopped around, say when piling, which they didn't bother to clean up given the nature of the garden? It's probbaly worth probing about to establish whether it really is foundation structure or not.
OP: this is a situation where you do need to get some specific advice on what your options are. Seriously.
One of the deficiencies in the PWA is a lack of remedy for non compliance.
The PWA does not provide for trespass, but it can allow for encroachment of foundations.
The implications of the position in terms of your development plans need consideration and careful advice. There are ways round things but you need to be asking questions in relation to the documentation or lack of it in relation to the boundary as part of the conveyance documentation.
Be very careful of getting into a boundary dispute. You will simply buy some lawyers a new car. You may have certain Party Wall procedures to follow yourself in terms of your development and they need to be considered as part of the professional advice recommended above.
One of the deficiencies in the PWA is a lack of remedy for non compliance.
The PWA does not provide for trespass, but it can allow for encroachment of foundations.
The implications of the position in terms of your development plans need consideration and careful advice. There are ways round things but you need to be asking questions in relation to the documentation or lack of it in relation to the boundary as part of the conveyance documentation.
Be very careful of getting into a boundary dispute. You will simply buy some lawyers a new car. You may have certain Party Wall procedures to follow yourself in terms of your development and they need to be considered as part of the professional advice recommended above.
Bought at auction? What did the auction pack contain, and did you have it reviewed by a solicitor before bidding? You may have some comeback against the seller if there was an undisclosed party wall agreement which prevents it being developed, but bear in mind the seller may well have no money so this could be futile.
You won't have any remedy against the neighbour, even if they failed to follow the correct procedure when they built, because you would have been able to inspect and see for yourself.
You won't have any remedy against the neighbour, even if they failed to follow the correct procedure when they built, because you would have been able to inspect and see for yourself.
Stegel said:
...it sounds a strange arrangement to have foundations extending 12-15" further out than the external wall.
Not necessarily; could be trench fill foundations, or you could be looking at the edge of a ring beam sitting on top of piled foundations, or perhaps even the toe of a raft. More than likely, design approval will have been by the NHBC rather than Local Authority Building Control, however, so getting a look at the construction drawings isn't as easy as a simple trip down to your town council offices. You could try asking the developer direct, but I know that our response would be that we don't release drawings to third parties for reasons of design liability.
MrV said:
Looking at this a different way, why or rather what is stopping you using the new wall as your side/flank wall of your new extension ?
Obviously you'd be into Party Wall Act, again (and you can expect stiff resistance), but from a practical/technical point of view you may well find that the foundations of the new flats haven't been designed in such a way that they could accommodate the additional loads.But all such speculation is pointless until you know exactly what you're up against and have sought the advice of a decent structural engineer.
As Silverthorn says, getting into a boundary dispute, or retrospective recourse to the Party Wall Act will do nothing but empty your wallet into the bank accounts of the
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff