Listed property development - your advice/experiences wanted
Discussion
I've gone and worked myself up into thinking that a local Grade II* listed castle would make the ultimate project and that I should invest all of my money into turning it into a first rate wedding venue in my spare time.
The problem is (despite the fact that the asking price is way outside of my budget) that it is derelict - it doesn't even have a roof - and my only property development experience is taking a few run down houses, doing non-structural repairs and decoration works, and then renting them out. I know that this will be a project that puts me ridiculously out of my depth, but I love a challenge and now can't stop thinking about it.
The first stage is figuring out all the things that are involved in taking a shell of a building that hasn't been used for 50+ years and bringing it back to life. The second stage is pricing it all up to see if it's at all viable and something I can fund. Does anyone on here have any experiences of this sort of thing that they'd be happy to share? Good or bad, I need to know if I'm being an idiot or if it's something that with the right business plan, the right contacts and the right finding can work.
The problem is (despite the fact that the asking price is way outside of my budget) that it is derelict - it doesn't even have a roof - and my only property development experience is taking a few run down houses, doing non-structural repairs and decoration works, and then renting them out. I know that this will be a project that puts me ridiculously out of my depth, but I love a challenge and now can't stop thinking about it.
The first stage is figuring out all the things that are involved in taking a shell of a building that hasn't been used for 50+ years and bringing it back to life. The second stage is pricing it all up to see if it's at all viable and something I can fund. Does anyone on here have any experiences of this sort of thing that they'd be happy to share? Good or bad, I need to know if I'm being an idiot or if it's something that with the right business plan, the right contacts and the right finding can work.
Dick Dastardly said:
I've gone and worked myself up into thinking that a local Grade II* listed castle would make the ultimate project and that I should invest all of my money into turning it into a first rate wedding venue in my spare time.
The problem is (despite the fact that the asking price is way outside of my budget) that it is derelict - it doesn't even have a roof - and my only property development experience is taking a few run down houses, doing non-structural repairs and decoration works, and then renting them out. I know that this will be a project that puts me ridiculously out of my depth, but I love a challenge and now can't stop thinking about it.
The first stage is figuring out all the things that are involved in taking a shell of a building that hasn't been used for 50+ years and bringing it back to life. The second stage is pricing it all up to see if it's at all viable and something I can fund. Does anyone on here have any experiences of this sort of thing that they'd be happy to share? Good or bad, I need to know if I'm being an idiot or if it's something that with the right business plan, the right contacts and the right finding can work.
This may be relevantThe problem is (despite the fact that the asking price is way outside of my budget) that it is derelict - it doesn't even have a roof - and my only property development experience is taking a few run down houses, doing non-structural repairs and decoration works, and then renting them out. I know that this will be a project that puts me ridiculously out of my depth, but I love a challenge and now can't stop thinking about it.
The first stage is figuring out all the things that are involved in taking a shell of a building that hasn't been used for 50+ years and bringing it back to life. The second stage is pricing it all up to see if it's at all viable and something I can fund. Does anyone on here have any experiences of this sort of thing that they'd be happy to share? Good or bad, I need to know if I'm being an idiot or if it's something that with the right business plan, the right contacts and the right finding can work.
http://www.beehivecity.com/television/tubeview-bee...
Also: http://www.channel4.com/4homes/on-tv/grand-designs...
I'd say that if there is any doubt that you can't afford to spend at least as much on restoration as the building costs then walk away.
I'd say that if there is any doubt that you can't afford to spend at least as much on restoration as the building costs then walk away.
You'll need deep pockets, a good architect, a competent, specialist builder and a sympathetic conservation officer.
We converted a range of Ideal Farm buildings into a 6 bed home once. Forget any ideas of just buying almost anything off the shelf.
We had to make a trip down to London to Hampton Court, take measurements from their windows, and then draw them up, get them approved, manufactured and then installed. All to match the "period detail".
Then the conservation officer wanted them painting brilliant white, a colour which wasn't available until the 1960's
We eventually agreed on an "invisible green".
On the upside, when you are finished, it'll probably be beautiful, unique and hopefully worth more than you started with!
We converted a range of Ideal Farm buildings into a 6 bed home once. Forget any ideas of just buying almost anything off the shelf.
We had to make a trip down to London to Hampton Court, take measurements from their windows, and then draw them up, get them approved, manufactured and then installed. All to match the "period detail".
Then the conservation officer wanted them painting brilliant white, a colour which wasn't available until the 1960's
We eventually agreed on an "invisible green".
On the upside, when you are finished, it'll probably be beautiful, unique and hopefully worth more than you started with!
Bringing new life and meaning to Listed Buildings can be hugely rewarding both financially and emotionally.
However - get a good architect!
And remember works on a Listed Building outside consent is a criminal offence for all involved.
(ask me how I know, when a contractor decided certain 'changes' would be a good idea on a refurb for a certain famous bass player......)
However - get a good architect!
And remember works on a Listed Building outside consent is a criminal offence for all involved.
(ask me how I know, when a contractor decided certain 'changes' would be a good idea on a refurb for a certain famous bass player......)
Thanks all. I watched that Grand Designs episode yesterday and the building I am looking at is in a similar state (though it's about 50% larger!). It is also on the ancient monuments list - so the restrictions/hassles would be the same as those guys had. I am mad enough to still be thinking about it this morning, though I can see it's not the kind of thing you can do as a side project - to get it done within a reasonable timescale would require full time work.
On the one hand I want to say 'go for it', on the other I'd offer a word of warning - your build costs estimations are going to go through the roof. Once you get into the fabric of the building and actually uncover the issues; your build will inevitably rise.
Please, please be careful and have a massive contingency.
BUT this could be epic (from an achievement point of view, as well as your own wedding venue business) and I don't want to hold you back.
Good luck fella.
Please, please be careful and have a massive contingency.
BUT this could be epic (from an achievement point of view, as well as your own wedding venue business) and I don't want to hold you back.
Good luck fella.
Dick D, if it an ancient monument then although it may be possible to reinstate/refurbish the place the likelihood of you obtaining consent is small. If you think planning officers can be difficult then you will soon find out that they are pussy cats compared to English Heritage officers! Deep, deep pockets, filled with lots of lovely money (which could otherwise be spent on several Ferrari 458's), will be required for this project and the planning process, if successful, could take years! Dreams such as this are great to have but the reality is a different matter. If I'm honest, I hope you get consent, have the money, time and energy and go for it, ending up with a place like no other but put all your energy into research before you put your hand in your pocket to buy. Perhaps a call to the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings (SPAB) will be of help to steer you to the right people to help. Good luck fella!
Thanks for the info. It would actually be CADW, the Welsh version of English Heritage. No idea if they are easier or harder to work with though.
I have decided that it is a project I want to go ahead with but not until I have the cash to pay for some proper advice from planning consultants, architects, etc and enough reserves to buy the place without a mortgage, so if I have to sit on it for a while it won't cost me a fortune in interest. I have about 1/3 of the money needed to do this, so right now it's acting as a great motivator to grow my business.
I have decided that it is a project I want to go ahead with but not until I have the cash to pay for some proper advice from planning consultants, architects, etc and enough reserves to buy the place without a mortgage, so if I have to sit on it for a while it won't cost me a fortune in interest. I have about 1/3 of the money needed to do this, so right now it's acting as a great motivator to grow my business.
Unless you have an emotional connection with the building - be it the actual building or the style and materials - then expect to pay a lot of money out for a slow return.
That's not to say don't do it just Listed buildings are (effectively) public space for any Tom, Dick or Harry to say what it is used for or how it's fixed.
You'll need to research and know the history of the actual building.
If you have no real experience of development (part time redecoration of properties during a price boom doesn't count) then get a good and experienced Architect/Surveyor/Designer on board.
That's not to say don't do it just Listed buildings are (effectively) public space for any Tom, Dick or Harry to say what it is used for or how it's fixed.
You'll need to research and know the history of the actual building.
If you have no real experience of development (part time redecoration of properties during a price boom doesn't count) then get a good and experienced Architect/Surveyor/Designer on board.
If it's as bad as you say, start with a meeting with the relevant officer in the local planning team. Reinforce the utter state of decay and try and forge a 'partnership approach' to rescuing such a poorly old building.
If they're not 'up for it', they'll only get worse once you've signed on the dotted line. I would walk away without knowing that the local planning folk were as committed to the project as you could be.
If they're not 'up for it', they'll only get worse once you've signed on the dotted line. I would walk away without knowing that the local planning folk were as committed to the project as you could be.
I would echo the above comments, such buildings are not cheap to renovate, nor maintain and run. I know I have one.....
On the proposed use as a wedding venue, do a huge amount of research, at first glance it looks like easy money, trust me it is not! We have a successful one, but a number of others have ceased trading in the last year...
Just finished having a mile long private drive cleared of snow, salted and gritted.....
However if you have deep pockets and a burning desire, go for it, it is fantastic to breathe life into an old building!
On the proposed use as a wedding venue, do a huge amount of research, at first glance it looks like easy money, trust me it is not! We have a successful one, but a number of others have ceased trading in the last year...
Just finished having a mile long private drive cleared of snow, salted and gritted.....
However if you have deep pockets and a burning desire, go for it, it is fantastic to breathe life into an old building!
Not that much to add to this, but I rented a 1 bed Grade II listed barn which had been turned into a residential property by the landlord 10 years ago. He has been trying unsuccessfully to sell it for the last 3 years and has been renting it out because he couldn't sell.
He told me that it was more than 50% again over what he had originally budgeted. He was not allowed to extend, even at the back, which would have made the property more saleable (enormous living space, 1 bedroom but a price tag of 375K) and the planning stuff was a nightmare. He also simply did not have the money to maintain it, hence window frames were rotten, heating was negligable and it needed a significant amount of work for anyone to be prepared to buy it.
He told me that it was more than 50% again over what he had originally budgeted. He was not allowed to extend, even at the back, which would have made the property more saleable (enormous living space, 1 bedroom but a price tag of 375K) and the planning stuff was a nightmare. He also simply did not have the money to maintain it, hence window frames were rotten, heating was negligable and it needed a significant amount of work for anyone to be prepared to buy it.
We are 2 years into a re-conversion of a Grade II Listed Church.
My advice is to make contact with the local Conservation Officer and discuss your ideas and plans. If you always remember that they hold the upper hand then you can have a positive experience with them.
They will only care about the original features of the building, they will not care that you need 4 bedrooms, they are not paid to do that.
You will also have to manage the sometime difficult relationship between Conservation and Building Control depts who both have completely different objectives. If you are smart you can play one off against the other but be very careful.
Also expect the costs to be higher than expected as some things will need to be custom made. For example we are having an arched window in one of the rooms. this is costing £3200 as it must match existing and handmade in hardwood.
Good forum for help and advice on Listed buildings - http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewforum.ph...
Ben
My advice is to make contact with the local Conservation Officer and discuss your ideas and plans. If you always remember that they hold the upper hand then you can have a positive experience with them.
They will only care about the original features of the building, they will not care that you need 4 bedrooms, they are not paid to do that.
You will also have to manage the sometime difficult relationship between Conservation and Building Control depts who both have completely different objectives. If you are smart you can play one off against the other but be very careful.
Also expect the costs to be higher than expected as some things will need to be custom made. For example we are having an arched window in one of the rooms. this is costing £3200 as it must match existing and handmade in hardwood.
Good forum for help and advice on Listed buildings - http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewforum.ph...
Ben
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