Discussion
Have a sunroom with concrete floor, fairly rough surface.
Requires ceramic tiling.
Now the problem.
Floor has been painted at some time in the past ( gloss red !! ).
Most of the paint worn down to a patchy matt finish.
Any one know if normal floor tile adhesive will work on this type of surface?
If not any ideas welcome.
Thanks.... Martin
Requires ceramic tiling.
Now the problem.
Floor has been painted at some time in the past ( gloss red !! ).
Most of the paint worn down to a patchy matt finish.
Any one know if normal floor tile adhesive will work on this type of surface?
If not any ideas welcome.
Thanks.... Martin
Oh... my... god...
Ring BAL, the market leader in tiling adhesives for 40+ years. Their free, impartial Technical Advice Service is on 0845 600 1222.
They're much better qualified than I am to explain why you should NEVER, under ANY circumstances, tile onto PVA. Can't believe that's been suggested by somebody who used to tile for a living...
Ring BAL, the market leader in tiling adhesives for 40+ years. Their free, impartial Technical Advice Service is on 0845 600 1222.
They're much better qualified than I am to explain why you should NEVER, under ANY circumstances, tile onto PVA. Can't believe that's been suggested by somebody who used to tile for a living...
Oh my god.......
Having been a tiler, I realise just how much the bal helpline overspecifies everything.
The only reason anyone would tell you not to use pva is that it's water soluble, and therefore not ideal as a primer as the vast majority of adhesives are water based.
As stated above- bal overspecifies everything to protect against an ever growing number of claims against their products.
Use of pva and a single part (polymer modified) adhesive will cause no problems whatsoever.
Having been a tiler, I realise just how much the bal helpline overspecifies everything.
The only reason anyone would tell you not to use pva is that it's water soluble, and therefore not ideal as a primer as the vast majority of adhesives are water based.
As stated above- bal overspecifies everything to protect against an ever growing number of claims against their products.
Use of pva and a single part (polymer modified) adhesive will cause no problems whatsoever.
Got to say that I agree with our accident prone friend.
Belt and braces but just a thought.....is there any room for boarding over the concrete or will it cause issues with a big step in level? If not you could cover it with 6mm "no-nore-ply" and that will work a treat. The "special" no more ply adhesive will stick the boards to pretty much anything (it's fvkin deadly stuff!) and just tile straight onto that.
Belt and braces but just a thought.....is there any room for boarding over the concrete or will it cause issues with a big step in level? If not you could cover it with 6mm "no-nore-ply" and that will work a treat. The "special" no more ply adhesive will stick the boards to pretty much anything (it's fvkin deadly stuff!) and just tile straight onto that.
ColinCMD said:
By the way, if you're tiling onto concrete, you don't need a flexible adhesive. Talk to BAL about a cheaper option.
No you don't, but single part flexible is widely specced forSuch instances.
Eta- and it's a load cheaper overall than removing all traces of paint prior to laying.
Ceramic tiles on a concrete screed on a cement adhesive don't move.
Overspeccing isn't going to acheive anything other than increased outlay.
Edited by Emsman on Friday 10th December 12:08
Sorry chaps but I agree with ColinCMD, PVA adhesive has absolutely NO place in tiling, as a primer or for anything else. It reactivates with moisture and forms a 'barrier' between the substrate and the adhesive stopping a correct bond. A synthetic resin primer is what you need, BAL bond SBR or Mapei primer 'G' are a couple of them. My favourite is 'G' for no other reason that it costs less. The concrete will need 'keying' by either using a scarifier (probably overkill) or a very course grade sandpaper. The idea is to remove any loose paint/loose concrete to give a stable surface to tile too, you don't need to remove all the paint. You certainly don't NEED a polymer modified adhesive but as it is in a sunroom probably not a bad idea if the floor heats up unevenly in the sun. Don't used tubbed adhesive, only cement based bagged. So steps as follows....
key concrete
Set out
Prime
Adhesive
Tile
Grout (flexible, see point about sunroom above)
Clean up grout
silicone skirting/floor joints
job done!
Don't use less than 3mm spacers for the tiles and if you are going under skirting, leave a 5mm gap between the edge of the tile and the wall, 2mm if butting up to the skirting and hide the gaps with silicone. This stops the tiles 'blowing' due to expansion. Also, depending on the size of the floor to be tiled, you may need an expansion joint somewhere.
If you need any more help, feel free to PM me. Apart from my motor trade adventures I used to have a tile repair company,fixing problems arising from incorrect installation. I still keep my hand in now and again though and it's nice to pass on a bit of knowledge.
HTH
key concrete
Set out
Prime
Adhesive
Tile
Grout (flexible, see point about sunroom above)
Clean up grout
silicone skirting/floor joints
job done!
Don't use less than 3mm spacers for the tiles and if you are going under skirting, leave a 5mm gap between the edge of the tile and the wall, 2mm if butting up to the skirting and hide the gaps with silicone. This stops the tiles 'blowing' due to expansion. Also, depending on the size of the floor to be tiled, you may need an expansion joint somewhere.
If you need any more help, feel free to PM me. Apart from my motor trade adventures I used to have a tile repair company,fixing problems arising from incorrect installation. I still keep my hand in now and again though and it's nice to pass on a bit of knowledge.
HTH
Edited by TVR1 on Friday 10th December 14:20
Edited by TVR1 on Friday 10th December 14:23
So why does all this conflicting info get banded about then?
Do you think it's due to Mr "I've been tiling since the dawn of man" types only seeing the job just after it's finished, looks lovely. Then 2 years later a few tiles crack, only a bit mind, and the owner just puts it down to one of those things, "...it's been 2 years I can't go back to the tiler". Then 5 years on it looks like crazy paving but the owner just rings up the tiler and get's it all replaced at it's out of fashion now anyway.
And so the cycle continues?
If it has been done as per the BAL helpline would it still be looking grand after 5 years+ ?
My in-laws had their bathroom done about 5 years ago and a lot of the floor tiles are fooked, this is obviously due to insuffucent stability in the floor. They aren't going to get the guy who did the tiling 5 years ago back in to fix it. He would just say fook off anyway. They might get him back in to retile the whole room though.
Is it due to us punters essentialy being feckin clueless?
Do you think it's due to Mr "I've been tiling since the dawn of man" types only seeing the job just after it's finished, looks lovely. Then 2 years later a few tiles crack, only a bit mind, and the owner just puts it down to one of those things, "...it's been 2 years I can't go back to the tiler". Then 5 years on it looks like crazy paving but the owner just rings up the tiler and get's it all replaced at it's out of fashion now anyway.
And so the cycle continues?
If it has been done as per the BAL helpline would it still be looking grand after 5 years+ ?
My in-laws had their bathroom done about 5 years ago and a lot of the floor tiles are fooked, this is obviously due to insuffucent stability in the floor. They aren't going to get the guy who did the tiling 5 years ago back in to fix it. He would just say fook off anyway. They might get him back in to retile the whole room though.
Is it due to us punters essentialy being feckin clueless?
dave_s13 said:
So why does all this conflicting info get banded about then?
Do you think it's due to Mr "I've been tiling since the dawn of man" types only seeing the job just after it's finished, looks lovely. Then 2 years later a few tiles crack, only a bit mind, and the owner just puts it down to one of those things, "...it's been 2 years I can't go back to the tiler". Then 5 years on it looks like crazy paving but the owner just rings up the tiler and get's it all replaced at it's out of fashion now anyway.
And so the cycle continues?
If it has been done as per the BAL helpline would it still be looking grand after 5 years+ ?
My in-laws had their bathroom done about 5 years ago and a lot of the floor tiles are fooked, this is obviously due to insuffucent stability in the floor. They aren't going to get the guy who did the tiling 5 years ago back in to fix it. He would just say fook off anyway. They might get him back in to retile the whole room though.
Is it due to us punters essentialy being feckin clueless?
Pretty much spot on. You can find bad time served tilers just as you can find bad plumbers, chippies etc as well. The problems arise when tilers havn't an understanding of modern techniques/adhesives/substrates/movement etc.Do you think it's due to Mr "I've been tiling since the dawn of man" types only seeing the job just after it's finished, looks lovely. Then 2 years later a few tiles crack, only a bit mind, and the owner just puts it down to one of those things, "...it's been 2 years I can't go back to the tiler". Then 5 years on it looks like crazy paving but the owner just rings up the tiler and get's it all replaced at it's out of fashion now anyway.
And so the cycle continues?
If it has been done as per the BAL helpline would it still be looking grand after 5 years+ ?
My in-laws had their bathroom done about 5 years ago and a lot of the floor tiles are fooked, this is obviously due to insuffucent stability in the floor. They aren't going to get the guy who did the tiling 5 years ago back in to fix it. He would just say fook off anyway. They might get him back in to retile the whole room though.
Is it due to us punters essentialy being feckin clueless?
In the 'old days', you didn't have large format tiles for example and you would probably only be tiling to plastered walls or cement floors. Porcelain was only for the very wealthy and natural stone and marble was the work of the devil.
These days, any reasonable tiler should be able to fix pretty much any tile to any substrate with a reasonable amount of thought. Of course, there are still a few 'problem' substrates....floating floors and metal substrates spring to mind.
The other big problem is trying to get customers to accept that yes, they could save 25% by going with the least expensive estimate but unless the preparation is correct, things will look good for a while and then things will go wrong, tiles will pop and crack and the whole thing will fall apart. I have seen some horrors that had to be repaired, from saturated walls because no tanking sytem was used to blown tiles because the fitter didn't use a simple expansion joint between substrates.
And sadly, customers expectations are as you say. Personally, and unless there is some other factor such as structural movement in a house, flooding etc. The tiles should last indefinately. I used to offer a 5 years guarantee against defects in workmanship and havn't had a call back yet. To get a good understanding of how things last if you use the correct techniques for any particular situation, pop over to the Victoria and Albert museum and look at the floor, or any Roman bath and look at the mosaics....how long have they been there? I was in Florence 3 years ago and the tiles on the floor of The Duomo have been there since 1436.
BAL is one of the best. I am a bit biased though as I trained with them. The products are a little bit on the expensive side, especially if you buy from places like Topps, but the quality is spot on and they also offer a 25yrs guarantee against product failure. But as I said, sometimes it is better to pay slightly more for a job well done.
The helpline is very good too. Take their advice, it's free!
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